High Passage

[kilemall]

One major area of this discussion is being overlooked.

All Terrestrial cruise ships have open air decks that are additional passenger dtons that are not possible for starships.

I recommend looking at the Terrestrial cruise ship you have chosen and find the approximate area available in open air (exterior) deckspace, multiply it by either 10 ft or 3 meters to approximate the volume required for a starship to have the equivalent space, then add the dtons this causes to your previous estimates.

While steerage/3rd class still is not terribly comfy it ends up being more than a single dton per passenger.

Promenades, pools, that is what I was getting at.

The equivalent would be an 'indoor' pool, or a deck with open window ports for viewing pleasure.

Fifth Element's Fhloston Paradise, more a planetary gravliner I think, would be a model.

 

[kilemall]

The figure of 150,000 Gross Register Tons covers only the enclosed space on the ship, and does not cover the additional volume for the lifeboats, or the open air upper deck areas, which are partially enclosed. That accounts for the difference between my assessment of about 30,000 Traveller Displacement tons verses the 35,000 Traveller dTons that other people are using.

Depending on the port, the port charges are assessed on either the Gross Register Tonnage or the Passenger Carrying Capacity. The Panama Canal has its own computation for Gross Register Tonnage, and assesses passenger ships on their passenger capacity assuming that the ship is maxed out on passengers.

I could see externally mounted lifeboats with internal access tubes and not necessarily a ship's bay.

Example starting 00:50-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhcvbPGyFso

 

[Whipsnade]

IMHO they are not equivalent, mainly because the very reason you choose to travel in a ship.

That's one of many reasons why Hovtej's QE2 cruise is in no way equivalent to interstellar travel in Traveller. Another reason Pendragonman's reminder that terrestrial ships have weather decks thus essentially "free" life support.

To really compare sea ship travel with Traveller Space travel, we shuld go to a time when the plane was not an option, and the ship was relly used to move people, not only for luxury trips where the goal is the trip itself, not reaching the destination port.

That's not a good equivalent either because we all too often ignore the relative cost of interstellar passage in Traveller versus the cost of oceanic passage in history. The late 1800s/early 1900s emigrant trade is a good way to examine our many faulty assumptions regarding cost.

In discussions of this type, the emigrant trade across the North Atlantic is always brought up and this thread is no exception. The peculiarities of that trade are rarely mentioned, however. First, that trade lasted only a few decades.

Second, that trade relied heavily on government subsidies of many kinds. Not only were ship construction and operation subsidized to great degree, but emigrants were encouraged to leave their native countries with deliberately cheap transport and lodging costs while also encouraged by destination nations via land grants, lax immigration controls, and other methods.

The emigrant trade relied on several political, social, and economic conditions which were definitely abnormal. That means the emigrant trade was an exception and not a rule, and definitely not something we want to use as an analogy for everyday interstellar travel in the OTU.

So, seeing as governments will rarely subsidize your trip, how does it cost to travel in Traveller? The Usual Suspects can now begin "debating" the credit to US dollar exchange rate while dutifully ignoring the metagame reason such exchange was created. While they're bleating and honking at each other, the rest of us can use the Big Mac Rule from The Economist to get rough handle on how much a passage will cost the average inhabitant of the OTU.

What's the Big Mac Rule? It's the amount of time you'll need to work to earn the purchase price of a Big Mac hamburger wherever you happen to live. Thoughtful readers will quickly realize that any number of economic variables are "folded" into that seemingly simple question; differing average wages, differing costs of living, exchange rates, taxes, logistics, etc. The heart of the rule relies on there being the same (allegedly) item for sale by the same company across a huge number of locations. This allows us to get a rough, but workable, grasp of relative purchasing power across a huge number of locations.

Substituting a starship ticket for a Big Mac, what sort of income does our average inhabitant of the OTU have with which to purchase their interstellar passage? Enter LBB:3 which gives us four levels of long subsistence; Struggling, Subsistence, Ordinary, and High. If you want ordinary food and lodging for a year, you'll need to earn 4800 credits. If you want to live high on the hog, you'll need to earn 10,800 credits.

Now, compare and contrast those two income levels with starship passage costs:

• Ordinary living: 4,800 Cr per year
• High living: 10,800 Cr per year

• Middle passage: 8,000 Cr
• High Passage: 10,000 Cr

What does the Big Mac Rule tell us about traveling in Traveller? How many ordinary types can afford almost two years living costs for a single Middle passage? Would a 57th Century Hovtej have been aboard that 57th Century QE2 if it cost him nearly three years of ordinary food and lodging?

We can't use the current day luxury cruise liner business to understand interstellar travel in the OTU. We can't use the late 1800s/early 1900s Blue Ribbon era in the North Atlantic either. The best historical analogy I can dredge up would be travel between UK/India and Holland/Indonesia during the 1700s heyday of the nationally chartered, joint stock, merchant, companies.

You only traveled between Europe and India/Indonesia because your employer or government sent you. You traveled for specific purposes. You traveled knowing you'd be gone for years if not decades.

You didn't travel on a whim. You didn't travel because you wanted to see the sights. You didn't travel for pleasure. Traveling was very expensive and traveling took time, so you made very sure you were traveling for very good reasons.

CT'77 described interstellar travel as rare and the passage rates reflected that.

CT'81 described interstellar travel akin to intercontinental air travel but didn't change passage rates to reflect that.

If you want interstellar travel to be akin to flying between continents, you either need to drop passage costs or raise wages.

 

[atpollard]

What about a long train ride?
Trans-Siberian Railroad ... that might be similar to a week in middle passage.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, regular people are not very prosperous and interstellar travel is expensive.

But there are a lot of people in the Imperium. Even if only 1% of the population can afford interstellar travel and only 10% of those travel each year, that is ~18 billion passengers per year or 50 million passengers every day in the Imperium alone. A single popA system would embark 10s of millions of passengers every year.

Much like an ocean liner at the turn of the century, only the rich could afford to travel for pleasure. For regular people it was a once in a lifetime one way trip to emigrate. Note that the Titanic carried almost as many first class passengers as Third Class/Steerage.

In 1900 Britain had a population of 38 million and a GDP of ~2 billion pounds, or about £50 / capita. Passage fare on the Titanic (1912) was £10-20 for Third and Second Class and £30-500 for First. Regular people with a good steady job might earn £10 - 40 a year at the end of the 19th century. So for regular people a transatlantic passage might cost an entire yearly salary, much like a single jump in Traveller. (Numbers quickly dug up mostly from wiki, so might not be entirely reliable.)

 

[aramis]

Yes, regular people are not very prosperous and interstellar travel is expensive.

But there are a lot of people in the Imperium. Even if only 1% of the population can afford interstellar travel and only 10% of those travel each year, that is ~18 billion passengers per year or 50 million passengers every day in the Imperium alone. A single popA system would embark 10s of millions of passengers every year.

Much like an ocean liner at the turn of the century, only the rich could afford to travel for pleasure. For regular people it was a once in a lifetime one way trip to emigrate. Note that the Titanic carried almost as many first class passengers as Third Class/Steerage.

In 1900 Britain had a population of 38 million and a GDP of ~2 billion pounds, or about £50 / capita. Passage fare on the Titanic (1912) was £10-20 for Third and Second Class and £30-500 for First. Regular people with a good steady job might earn £10 - 40 a year at the end of the 19th century. So for regular people a transatlantic passage might cost an entire yearly salary, much like a single jump in Traveller. (Numbers quickly dug up mostly from wiki, so might not be entirely reliable.)

Your figures for incomes are a bit skewed. 1914 rates of pay for a private in the RA within an infantry unit was a shilling 8-pence per day... 30£ a year or so.

In the 1890's, pay for a naval lieutenant was between 100£ and 200£ per year - respectable, but considered barely adequate for the upper classes. Warrants got 100£ to 168£ depending on longevity. An ordinary seaman made 20£ per year... and was considered totally unlivable were it not for the additions of room, board, and uniform... Able made about 28.5£.

Farm labor was paid about 17£ per year... but usually also included living on the farm. Skilled labor was generally 40£ or more per year. (usually just shy of a pound a week...) Miners about 20-30£ per year. Half a pound a week, give or take.

Household staff were usually paid room, board, plus 11-20£, and worked 6 days of 7. Many who worked sundays still got time to go to church.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Your figures for incomes are a bit skewed.

I'm not very surprised, I found some random numbers quickly. But my numbers are not that different from yours. A naval officer was not ordinary people.

 

[Condottiere]

Let's see what the new numbers bring us; maybe a loophole will be discovered to bring starfaring to easyJump prices.

 

[Whipsnade]

But there are a lot of people in the Imperium. Even if only 1% of the population can afford interstellar travel and only 10% of those travel each year, that is ~18 billion passengers per year or 50 million passengers every day in the Imperium alone.

True, but will that 10% of the top 1% be traveling aboard a Beowulf or Marava?

Much like an ocean liner at the turn of the century, only the rich could afford to travel for pleasure.

Did they travel aboard tramp steamers?

(Numbers quickly dug up mostly from wiki, so might not be entirely reliable.)

They're close enough for our purposes. One jump one way will cost approximately one year's salary. That's a goal you can save for if your need/desire is important enough.

Emigration could be one reason, if you're allowed to cross the xtrality lines on either end of your trip. You only need one ticket in that case.

A pilgrimage is another reason, but you'll also need a return ticket and, if the pilgrimage site isn't one jump away, you'll be saving for a long time and may never achieve your goal.

A once-in-a-lifetime vacation? That's one I don't quite buy. The median US yearly income is about $50K. How many people do you know who would spend $100K on transportation to their dream vacation? A hundred thousand dollars not for that dream vacation itself, mind you, but just to get there?

We talk a lot about schisms in CT and they're usually Proto vs. OTU and Small ship vs. Big ship. Travel is another.

CT'77 described interstellar travel as rare. Elsewhere in the rules, the costs and average salaries supported that description.

CT'81 described interstellar as akin to intercontinental jet travel. Yet the costs and average salaries weren't changed to support that new description.

 

[Hovtej]

CT'81 described interstellar as akin to intercontinental jet travel. Yet the costs and average salaries weren't changed to support that new description.

Makes you wonder why the game is called Traveller, but you can see why military and trader crew careers would be so appealing to many--a chance to get off your backwater home world!

 

[pendragonman]

It is the very reasons put out in '77 that I have often put forth the age of sail model from 1700 ish to 1850 ish.

The India and China trade, emigration to the colonies, and the Mediterranean coaster trade give a more reasonable model for the small ship universe (less than 10,000 dtons) in trade and travel.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

True, but will that 10% of the top 1% be traveling aboard a Beowulf or Marava?

Did they travel aboard tramp steamers?

We were discussing passenger liners, not tramp freighters?

No-one travels on a tramp freighter if they have a choice, but if a popA system embarks 10s of millions of passengers, a pop5 world embarks 100s of passengers per year. No liner will stop at the pop5 world, so any passing tramp freighter is the only possibility to get off-world.

A once-in-a-lifetime vacation? That's one I don't quite buy. The median US yearly income is about $50K. How many people do you know who would spend $100K on transportation to their dream vacation? A hundred thousand dollars not for that dream vacation itself, mind you, but just to get there?

Agree, not for ordinary people. But the upper middle classes might swing it?

CT'81 described interstellar as akin to intercontinental jet travel.

Where? I can't find anything like that?

 

[kilemall]

A once-in-a-lifetime vacation? That's one I don't quite buy. The median US yearly income is about $50K. How many people do you know who would spend $100K on transportation to their dream vacation? A hundred thousand dollars not for that dream vacation itself, mind you, but just to get there?

For a trip to the moon or the planets, sure.

And a steal at the price.

 

[Whipsnade]

We were discussing passenger liners, not tramp freighters?

The rules that list passage costs only mention "low end" shipping like free traders, far traders, subsidized merchants, and subsidized liners. We don't know what passage costs are for the 57th Century equivalent of the QE2.

I've no doubt that the Upper 1% are traveling. I've also no doubt that they're paying much more than 10K Cr per jump.

Agree, not for ordinary people. But the upper middle classes might swing it?

One hundred thousand dollars just to get there? That's not upper middle class. The upper middle class still works for their money. With a round trip costing $100,000 or more, you're looking at those people whose money works for them.

Where? I can't find anything like that?

My bad. CT'81 dropped the CT'77's Space Lanes table. It was 1982's TTB which stated "... interstellar travel will be as common as international travel is today..."

 

[aramis]

We were discussing passenger liners, not tramp freighters?

No-one travels on a tramp freighter if they have a choice,

I have. It's a great way to travel.

 

[Condottiere]

The problem with rugrats is that they get everywhere, and to keep explaining the physics of jumpspace to the question of the estimated time of arrival has to be exasperating.

 

[Whipsnade]

The problem with rugrats is that they get everywhere, and to keep explaining the physics of jumpspace to the question of the estimated time of arrival has to be exasperating.

As Robert Benchley said "There are two classes of travel - first class, and with children"

 

[kilemall]

I have. It's a great way to travel.

It sounds near perfect. No super crowding, no crazy activities schedule, totally nothing to do but look at the sea, eat good, and catch up on reading and thinking.

You just have to have the time and the mindset.

 

[aramis]

It sounds near perfect. No super crowding, no crazy activities schedule, totally nothing to do but look at the sea, eat good, and catch up on reading and thinking.

You just have to have the time and the mindset.

On the pacific, it helps to be able to play hanfuda/koi-koi and/or mah jongg, as those are quite popular with the orientals who tend to work the boats.