Hiver glyphs?
- Thread starter Qstor2
- Start date
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
AM7 page 20?
Gruffty
SOC-14 1K
...<HiverHiverHiver>.....
..... there's never a Hiver around when you need one, then suddenly a fat one comes along ..... :rofl:
Yes: as Andrew says, on CT AM 7 p. 20 there are *what I believe* to be Hiver glyphs, although there is *nothing* in the text to indicate that the symbols on p. 20 actually *are* Hiver glyphs.
Outside of AM 7, I don't recall *ever* seeing any official/canon Hiver glyphs, anywhere. There are some squiggles on the side of the ship on p. 39 of AM 7, but they're not the same as the glyphs on p. 20 (I feel the symbols on the ship are Gurvin letters, personally).
..... there's never a Hiver around when you need one, then suddenly a fat one comes along ..... :rofl:
Yes: as Andrew says, on CT AM 7 p. 20 there are *what I believe* to be Hiver glyphs, although there is *nothing* in the text to indicate that the symbols on p. 20 actually *are* Hiver glyphs.
Outside of AM 7, I don't recall *ever* seeing any official/canon Hiver glyphs, anywhere. There are some squiggles on the side of the ship on p. 39 of AM 7, but they're not the same as the glyphs on p. 20 (I feel the symbols on the ship are Gurvin letters, personally).
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Patron Zero
SOC-13
GURPS Traveller Alien Races 3 (Hivers and Droyne)
Excerpted from GURPS Traveller Alien Races 3
Sidebar insert regarding the written Hiver Language.
Hiver Script
The Hiver use an ideographic script
derived from their hand signals. Each
character stands for a discrete, individual
concept and except for "beginning" and
"emptiness," there are no synonyms. The
majority of the ideograms are hexagonal.
the vertices representing the fingertips of a
fully splayed Hiver hand. Inside this field.
shapes and areas of shading indicate the
positioning of the digits and eyestalks and
the precise orientation of the hand itself.
The three dimensions of the original are
traditionally represented by larger or
smaller areas of decoration within the
field. Modern holographic inks and
3D displays gel around this problem
completely.
There are of course. many thousands
of ideograms to remember. This was not a
huge problem for the Hivers to whom it
was native, or for the computer-using
societies they met. but it slows the acceptance
of the Federation by new neighbors
and puts up barriers to communication.
The Hivers write their language in
lines of hexagonal glyph, intended to he
read in sequence. The most common
arrangement is to have the vertices pointing
up and down and read horizontally.
Very careful arrangement of the character
allows them to be read diagonally
instead (which sequence is intended is
immediately apparent to the Hivers). More
sophisticated draftsmen can all also hide
messages in lines of hexagons with touching
corners.
The Hivers would very much like the
elegance, power and inherent subtlety of
their written grammar to make it into
Gurvin but it isn't catching on. Half of the
Gurvin race cannot follow the concept at
all, and the lthklur have chosen to lampoon
it by designing a spiral form, which
reads out from the center of a cluster of
glyphs, reminiscent of a mandala. They
also use the varying shading density of the
characters to produce pointillist artwork.
Checking Wikipedia I found two non-canon web pages listed concerning Hivers but sadly both were not solvent.
Excerpted from GURPS Traveller Alien Races 3
Sidebar insert regarding the written Hiver Language.
Hiver Script
The Hiver use an ideographic script
derived from their hand signals. Each
character stands for a discrete, individual
concept and except for "beginning" and
"emptiness," there are no synonyms. The
majority of the ideograms are hexagonal.
the vertices representing the fingertips of a
fully splayed Hiver hand. Inside this field.
shapes and areas of shading indicate the
positioning of the digits and eyestalks and
the precise orientation of the hand itself.
The three dimensions of the original are
traditionally represented by larger or
smaller areas of decoration within the
field. Modern holographic inks and
3D displays gel around this problem
completely.
There are of course. many thousands
of ideograms to remember. This was not a
huge problem for the Hivers to whom it
was native, or for the computer-using
societies they met. but it slows the acceptance
of the Federation by new neighbors
and puts up barriers to communication.
The Hivers write their language in
lines of hexagonal glyph, intended to he
read in sequence. The most common
arrangement is to have the vertices pointing
up and down and read horizontally.
Very careful arrangement of the character
allows them to be read diagonally
instead (which sequence is intended is
immediately apparent to the Hivers). More
sophisticated draftsmen can all also hide
messages in lines of hexagons with touching
corners.
The Hivers would very much like the
elegance, power and inherent subtlety of
their written grammar to make it into
Gurvin but it isn't catching on. Half of the
Gurvin race cannot follow the concept at
all, and the lthklur have chosen to lampoon
it by designing a spiral form, which
reads out from the center of a cluster of
glyphs, reminiscent of a mandala. They
also use the varying shading density of the
characters to produce pointillist artwork.
Checking Wikipedia I found two non-canon web pages listed concerning Hivers but sadly both were not solvent.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Ah yes, Hiver ideograms based on "hand" language. That rings a bell. I have a vague recollection of a multilingual sign in one of the MT (maybe) art pieces with something like that. Off for a quick perusal...
...hmm, nope, found a multilingual sign in MT but no Hiver on it and not quite the scene I was recalling so I'm not sure where to look.
...hmm, nope, found a multilingual sign in MT but no Hiver on it and not quite the scene I was recalling so I'm not sure where to look.
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
JTAS 13 pg 18.
Pic of human using translation device displaying hiver glyph.
Pic of human using translation device displaying hiver glyph.
Qstor2
SOC-13
Thanks. I didn't see the ones on AM7 p. 20. Even if they were non canonical, It would be interesting to see someone more graphical competent 
create some more with indications as to what word the glyphs was for.
I wanted to make a hand out for players using some glyphs. Guess I'll have to use MS Paint
Mike
create some more with indications as to what word the glyphs was for.I wanted to make a hand out for players using some glyphs. Guess I'll have to use MS Paint
Mike
Patron Zero
SOC-13
H is for Hiver
"If you have the url you might be able to find them on the Wayback Machine" - far-trader
I have and I did find one of the articles, thanks for suggesting the Wayback Machine, an often overlooked internet tool. Posting the link below to H is for Hiver, enjoy !
http://web.archive.org/web/20071126022750/http://home.earthlink.net/~ngc5139/FDA/His4Hiver.html
P.S. I'm an often frustrated imagineer, one unmastered discipline being the designing of ideograms so Ill carefully back away from this thread as having so many other irons in my fire here.
"If you have the url you might be able to find them on the Wayback Machine" - far-trader
I have and I did find one of the articles, thanks for suggesting the Wayback Machine, an often overlooked internet tool. Posting the link below to H is for Hiver, enjoy !
http://web.archive.org/web/20071126022750/http://home.earthlink.net/~ngc5139/FDA/His4Hiver.html
P.S. I'm an often frustrated imagineer, one unmastered discipline being the designing of ideograms so Ill carefully back away from this thread as having so many other irons in my fire here.
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Gruffty
SOC-14 1K
...pssst!.....they're the same glyphs at that link as those on p. 20 of CT AM7......
Not Hiver, and not strictly canon-compatible, but this topic came up on the TML once, and someone - I have no recollection who, now - posted a link to the Rikchik language at http://suberic.net/~dmm/rikchik/language/language.html (with the "root" of the Rikchik pages at http://suberic.net/~dmm/rikchik/intro.html).
Patron Zero
SOC-13
Glyphs 101
More than happy to give you a few pointers concerning the design and development of ideograms and how such may relate to the Hiver written language. Just keep in mind the keyword here is alien and then the enigmatic mind of a Hiver won't present such a challenge !
Thanks. I didn't see the ones on AM7 p. 20. Even if they were non canonical, It would be interesting to see someone more graphical competent
I wanted to make a hand out for players using some glyphs. Guess I'll have to use MS Paint
Mike
More than happy to give you a few pointers concerning the design and development of ideograms and how such may relate to the Hiver written language. Just keep in mind the keyword here is alien and then the enigmatic mind of a Hiver won't present such a challenge !
Qstor2,
Just keep in mind that the Hiver language is not based on sound. We put consonants and vowels together to form syllables and words; the Hivers wouldn't necessarily be inclined to do that. It may be more like a mathematical progression.
IMTU, Hivers are as old as the ancient Droyne and I treat them similar to B5's Vorlon. For one adventure, I had to create a old Hiver numerical system; the simplest way, I thought, was to base everything on a hexagon split into six equal wedges (the Hiver hand). Each numeric value just added to the previous; zero was a blank hex, one was a hex with one wedge occluded, two was two wedges, continuing in a clockwise rotation. Ended up have a strange system that ends in 21, so I made 21 a mystic number full of strange meaning in Hiver superstition.
Conceivably, the Hiver sign language could have 22 (including zero) "syllables" that can be combined to form words; these would be represented similarly as hexs and wedges. While signing, head wobbles, shakes, nods, neck twists, and even toe tapping or stomps could be used for punctuation; these might be represented in the glyphs as side marks similar to that in the Rikchik language Jeff Z. referenced.
All in all, whatever you decide, it will be an entertaining exercise. Best of luck!
Just keep in mind that the Hiver language is not based on sound. We put consonants and vowels together to form syllables and words; the Hivers wouldn't necessarily be inclined to do that. It may be more like a mathematical progression.
IMTU, Hivers are as old as the ancient Droyne and I treat them similar to B5's Vorlon. For one adventure, I had to create a old Hiver numerical system; the simplest way, I thought, was to base everything on a hexagon split into six equal wedges (the Hiver hand). Each numeric value just added to the previous; zero was a blank hex, one was a hex with one wedge occluded, two was two wedges, continuing in a clockwise rotation. Ended up have a strange system that ends in 21, so I made 21 a mystic number full of strange meaning in Hiver superstition.
Conceivably, the Hiver sign language could have 22 (including zero) "syllables" that can be combined to form words; these would be represented similarly as hexs and wedges. While signing, head wobbles, shakes, nods, neck twists, and even toe tapping or stomps could be used for punctuation; these might be represented in the glyphs as side marks similar to that in the Rikchik language Jeff Z. referenced.
All in all, whatever you decide, it will be an entertaining exercise. Best of luck!
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Patron Zero
SOC-13
Ancient Scripts
Might I suggest a casual study of the written language left by the Krell as a good primer for the mindset to understand-embrace Hiver glyphs.
Might I suggest a casual study of the written language left by the Krell as a good primer for the mindset to understand-embrace Hiver glyphs.
Is there someplace on the web where the Krell language is presented? My google-fu is weak against Krell style.
Patron Zero
SOC-13
Written Examples
To the best of my knowing the only canon representations of the Krell language are found in the original 1956 film, Forbidden Planet. Dr.Morbius displays a few lines of text to the visiting UP cruiser's captain and physician.
There have been several TTF fonts based on Krell symbols, also a page devoted to the study of the language has since disappeared but still accessible via the Internet Wayback Machine, links below to both.
http://fonts.goldenweb.it/pan_file/l/en/font2/Krell.ttf/d2/Freeware_fonts/c/k/default.html
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://sfstation.members.easyspace.com/fbkrel.htm
To the best of my knowing the only canon representations of the Krell language are found in the original 1956 film, Forbidden Planet. Dr.Morbius displays a few lines of text to the visiting UP cruiser's captain and physician.
There have been several TTF fonts based on Krell symbols, also a page devoted to the study of the language has since disappeared but still accessible via the Internet Wayback Machine, links below to both.
http://fonts.goldenweb.it/pan_file/l/en/font2/Krell.ttf/d2/Freeware_fonts/c/k/default.html
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://sfstation.members.easyspace.com/fbkrel.htm
