How about updating UWP's based on era?

[Supplement Four]

I'm completely against changing OTU data--but I'm not against changing the static nature of Traveller's UWP's.

Let me explain with a question...

What do you think? Should UWPs be altered based on a point in time? I mean, obviously, the pop codes of worlds are lower when the world is being colonized vs. 500 years later (maybe the pop code is different...higher or lower...maybe not).

What would you think of this...an official set of sector UWP's based on the Traveller milieu? I'm talking about an official list where one could look up Natoko's (Aramis subsector/Spinward Marches) during the Hard Times era...or during the Fourth Frontier War...or during the Rebellion...or during Milieu 0?

This is just for fun...but what do you think? Would you like to see official data for worlds at different eras of Imperial history?

 

[hunter]

That's how it has been done already in canon.

Avenger's 1248 material is updated to reflect the era.

Our Gateway material is updated to reflect the era.

MT was updated to reflect the era.

TNE was updated to reflect the era

T4 as well.

 

[far-trader]

In a contrary mood tonight S4?



Before we go creating living UWPs for all eras could we first fix the typos, badly coded random gen'ed, and simply in error ones, so we know where to start

 

[Supplement Four]

That's how it has been done already in canon.

This, I know, but what I was speculating on was a list--an official list one could purchase or download as a neat "freebie" or have included in supplemental material. Something to refer to for different eras.

I wasn't suggesting coming up with new data. I was just thinking of having it consolodated somewhere.







@far-trader

Which is why I wasn't in a contrary mood--just thinking about all the different types of world data out there. I was thinking more along the lines of seeing the govt and pop codes change (not physical characteristics of the world--which I'm totally against).

I think I'm having trouble explaining myself recently. Too much on my mind in RL, I think.

 

[daryen]

MT was updated to reflect the era.

Not for the Spinward Marches it wasn't.

Quite frankly, that was one of the silliest things that DGP did. They went through all of the trouble to try and change allegiance codes, but never ever bothered to change any of the UWPs. It was pretty amazing how a lo-pop world with a human government went from human to Aslan control and ended up with a lo-pop world with a human government and no population change. Even the 1117 UWP data in the Regency Sourcebook is still the same pre-5FW UWPs with MT allegiance codes.

TNE data, however, did change. The 1202 UWP data in the Regency Sourcebook did a very good job of showing the progress of time. (The other funny thing was the "retcon" of allegiance data in the Regency Sourcebook, too. Apparently the Aslan never got quite as far as the Spinward Marches after all ...)

 

[far-trader]

...@far-trader

Which is why I wasn't in a contrary mood--just thinking about all the different types of world data out there. I was thinking more along the lines of seeing the govt and pop codes change (not physical characteristics of the world--which I'm totally against).

I think I'm having trouble explaining myself recently. Too much on my mind in RL, I think.

No worries here, and I wish the same for your RL too

I think I see now what you mean, and it may have been tiredness on my part last night that saw a twist of full contradiction in your "no change good" and "era changes good"

It is interesting though (to me at least), that you see era changes to the social data as good, while correcting errors and applying reason to physical data is bad.

As pointed out the majority of physical changes would have been a minor bump to the size code for small planets with atmospheres. How many people would have noticed? How many ever use the local gravity (size) as a part of the game? Far less than those who use the atmosphere I'm sure. I know I rarely apply gravity concerns (most of the action takes place in starports with AG or aboard vehicles. And even when going "out" I tend to ignore the whole encumbrance vs gravity thing and focus on the life support issues (temperature, breathing, acid rain, etc.) of the atmosphere.

 

[Plankowner]

Well, I for one use local gravity in my games. I make the players roll Dex checks for a number of days equal to the 8-SIZE (8 being 1g). Locals laugh at them too, pickpockets target them as off-worlders. Actually, I use it a lot (well I did when I played). Each planet SMELLS different btw.

Anyway, I would LOVE to see a collected work like this. I think I even asked for it once before.

I would love to see the Spinward Marches at Milieu 500 (initial exploration), Milieu 1105 (Golden Era), Hard Times, 1202 and 1248.

BUT, I would want the CORRECT and consistent. Once Marc decides on the "canon" UWPs for the physical data, that should never change without specific reason (saturation nuclear bombing changing the ATM from 6 to 7 for example) and it should be explained right then.

Social changes would be what really changes and seeing how those change through 700 years would be really cool.

 

[Supplement Four]

It is interesting though (to me at least), that you see era changes to the social data as good, while correcting errors and applying reason to physical data is bad.

I have no problem with a world "growing" over the years--having its UWP changed based on the Traveller era.

I don't want OTU Spinward Marches data (or any OTU data) changed just because some writers "want to".

MGT is set around 1105. It needs to use the same SM UWPs that we've all been using for decades now.

OTOH, if a GM wants to play in the Spinward Marches during the Interstellar Wars, I think some of the govt codes and pop codes, TL, Starports, and Amber/Red zone codes should reflect that era--not 1105.

My poll has to do with this. Would a GM find it handy to have a resource somewhere (included in a future supplement, downloaded as a freebie, a stand-alone book focusing on this issue...something in this vein) that would allow the GM to see official UWPs for the world in a particular point in Traveller history.

This is a different beast than what MJD wanted to do with the Spinward Marches supplement he is writing. Martin was looking at changing established physical world attributes and other UWP stats based on his, EDG's, Hans', or other Avenger "helper"'s taste.

I'm totally, 100% against the OTU being altered that way.

But, I'm not against the OTU UWPs being reflected differently in, say, Milieu 0 vs. The New Era. Or, 1105 vs. the Interstellar Wars.

Make sense?

 

[Supplement Four]

I would love to see the Spinward Marches at Milieu 500 (initial exploration), Milieu 1105 (Golden Era), Hard Times, 1202 and 1248.

Planky understands what I'm talking about in this thread.

I think it'd be interesting to look at a specific world and see where the TL changed....where the world finally got a Class A starport...wonder why the pop code dimenished...things like that.

Physical stats (barring some world changing events) would always remain the same throughout the list.

 

[daryen]

MGT is set around 1105. It needs to use the same SM UWPs that we've all been using for decades now.

But that is my point. There is not a single set of UWPs "we've all been using for decades now." We have incompatible sets of data. My question is which set should be used? Since this decision must be made "on high", we might as know which is the "authoritative" set of UWPs.

Also, what about blatant retcons? For example, it is well established (now) that Andor and Candory have always been Droyne worlds. Yet, until Dave Nilsen was willing to change the hallowed UWPs for the Regency Sourcebook, those two worlds were always coded as human worlds. Should those two worlds be updated, or should the error be perpetuated in perpetuity?

And, if the SM UWPs have always been the same, just what is Regina's TL?

OTOH, if a GM wants to play in the Spinward Marches during the Interstellar Wars, I think some of the govt codes and pop codes, TL, Starports, and Amber/Red zone codes should reflect that era--not 1105.

Of course, if you did this during the Interstellar Wars period, you would have about a half dozen worlds with populations. (Let's see: Andor, Candory, Darrian, Junidy, Yebab, Byret, and maybe Vanejen.)

But, I'm not against the OTU UWPs being reflected differently in, say, Milieu 0 vs. The New Era. Or, 1105 vs. the Interstellar Wars.

But, according to canon, you can have a world "invaded" by "Aslan ihatei", yet there is no reflection in the UWP. You can have Vargr conquer and pillage a world, yet have no change in UWP. (c.f. MT-IE) So, really, how much are UWPs allowed to change?

 

[daryen]

Physical stats (barring some world changing events) would always remain the same throughout the list.

Which version of Reno is correct: S3 or SMC?

 

[Supplement Four]

Which version of Reno is correct: S3 or SMC?

Damn Zho bastards! They used up all the water during the invasion. Didn't you know that!






Seriously, though...you do know that there is a difference between picking one set of OTU data and sticking with it, rather than what Hans submitted in his post (other thread, I think) where the pop code of one of the Sword Worlds needed to be changed because of blah, blah, blah...

Define one set of OTU UWP data for the SM in 1105, then leave it alone. Don't change the pop code because of blah, blah. Don't make it a desert world because it would make sense if blah, blah. Don't make the starport a Class A becuase of blah, blah, blah. Don't increase the TL becuase of blah, de-blah, blah, blah.

Just leave it alone.

The changes that were being contemplated were more (much more, from what I've read in the discussion) than just picking Hydro 2 or Hydro 0 for Reno. World sizes were going to be changed in accordance to atmo. Personal preferences might have been included, as with Hans' example of that Sword Worlds' pop code. And, I'm completely against that.

 

[far-trader]

...blah blah blah. So you see the physical UWP stats are not carved in planetary stone either by your own criteria for change over time S4.

There, now that I have your attention I'll provide the blah blah blah part above to explain...

If you accept as you have that survey is updated now and then, and that change does happen for the Pop, Gov, and Law, and you have not only accepted but asked for such changes, then you must also accept that the Size, Atmo, and Hydro may also change.

Why?

By the simple expedient that the focus of the system (i.e. the Mainworld) has moved to another world in the system.

For example...

Regina (which before Book 6 was just a planet orbiting a star) used to be A78889-A (per S3). It was a nice planet but...

Flash forward generations (to Book 6 where Regina becomes a moon orbiting the gas giant) and the colonization and terraforming is complete and New Regina is designated the Mainworld. Nobody calls it New Regina of course, just Regina. And Old Regina is now called Olybris and has suffered the catastrophe that was predicted and planned for, leaving it a devasted world with a few holdouts who refuse to leave and have declared themselves independent. Regina (New Regina) is almost identical to the old world by design. TL has suffered a bit as so much of industry was geared to the terraforming and colonization effort.

Anyway, on to an old question...

Why was Regina made a moon of the gas giant? I thought that was only done (per Book 6) IF there was no habitable zone orbit for the main star? Isn't Olybris (interestingly enough) arguably in the habitable zone of Lusor? Shouldn't Regina have been placed there? Or have I always read that wrong? I suspect it was more a choice than adherence to the rules.

Anyway, this little fantasy explanation is just to show that there's some weird stuff going on out there. Just one example. I fully don't expect S4 or any of the don't change anything crowd to accept that change is inevitable and explainable, even for physical stats in the UWP. But it is and they may.

 

[rancke]

I would love to see the Spinward Marches at Milieu 500 (initial exploration), Milieu 1105 (Golden Era), Hard Times, 1202 and 1248.

BUT, I would want the CORRECT and consistent. Once Marc decides on the "canon" UWPs for the physical data, that should never change without specific reason (saturation nuclear bombing changing the ATM from 6 to 7 for example) and it should be explained right then.

Social changes would be what really changes and seeing how those change through 700 years would be really cool.

I did a historical campaign setting for JTAS Online detailing District 268, Glisten, Egyrn, and Pax Rulin in Year 400. If you have a subscription, have a look here:

http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?953

I had a lot of fun figuring out how those worlds looked 800 years earlier.


Hans

 

[Nathan Brazil]

My question is which set should be used? Since this decision must be made "on high", we might as know which is the "authoritative" set of UWPs.

I think that this had been one of the late DonM's projects.

I had been analyzing/cleaning up UWP's for DonM's T5SS/travellermap.com data dumps for the 31 Imperial Sectors last year. So how canon was all that number crunching I did and thus in turn for travellermap.com?

 

[inexorabletash]

I think that this had been one of the late DonM's projects.

I had been analyzing/cleaning up UWP's for DonM's T5SS/travellermap.com data dumps for the 31 Imperial Sectors last year. So how canon was all that number crunching I did and thus in turn for travellermap.com?

One of his many unfinished projects. As noted elsewhere, prepping data for 1140 "Lorenverse" was on his list, as well as various OTU milieu. Don considered getting a broader set of 1105 data completed higher priority. Just days before his untimely passing, he got 7 sectors into review and had 4 more on his plate.

travellermap supports different eras of data - although there's no UI for it yet. I'm just waiting for the data to be ready. I have the Gateway to Destiny 990 data for Gateway Domain slotted in just as a proof-of-concept.

I hope that the project will be able to be picked up, and the number crunching made use of.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

One of his many unfinished projects. As noted elsewhere, prepping data for 1140 "Lorenverse" was on his list, as well as various OTU milieu. Don considered getting a broader set of 1105 data completed higher priority. Just days before his untimely passing, he got 7 sectors into review and had 4 more on his plate.

travellermap supports different eras of data - although there's no UI for it yet. I'm just waiting for the data to be ready. I have the Gateway to Destiny 990 data for Gateway Domain slotted in just as a proof-of-concept.

I hope that the project will be able to be picked up, and the number crunching made use of.

The Wiki is also set up to do different eras and, in many cases, already has data up for different eras. Some of the worlds have as many as seven or more UWP's for different eras.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[robject]

I added a third entry.

1. I can't say NO.

Milieu Zero has a set of UWPs.

TNE has UWP data for 1200 and 1248. That's two sets.

We have the Lorenverse which has its own UWP data, at least between 1120 to 1140, and perhaps further. And this project is viable despite Don's leaving us early.

Furthermore, we have 1900 UWP data, which overlaps into Charted Space, and therefore presents a third set of period data.

There are more examples, but these are sufficient to prevent me from voting NO.



2. I can't say YES.

Alternate sets of UWP data must by nature be incomplete to some degree in order to be published. Manpower, process, and validation are of course bottlenecks.

But the true reason is that their purpose in existing is not great enough to justify complete sets. In fact, there's a strong argument for keeping many UWPs "dark" and allowing the referee to deal with space as he likes. Seen from the point of flexibility and manpower, it's a win-win.

Thus, Milieu Zero needs parts of Core and Vland, and perhaps others. Perhaps all of Core and Vland -- but not necessarily. 1200 and 1248 needs the Spinward Marches, and perhaps other bits of the Domain. The Lorenverse wants the entire Imperium. Will it get it? Or more to the point, what's the priority? Similarly 1900.

The opposite view is one of chasing the proverbial rabbit down the proverbial hole. It's a time sink, and while it can have value, there are, and probably will always be, other more interesting and pressing matters to deal with. Nevertheless, that doesn't stop people from trying, and fan material has made it into canon before, though it's always a tricky and sticky affair.



3. I have to say SOME.

Some UWPs already have values across multiple timelines. But that does not mean all UWPs will need this.

 

[nobby-w]

I did this for a campaign setting for the fall of the Second Imperium, set around the Daibei and Reaver's Deep sectors.

It allowed me to develop some history. As an example, Drexilthar is inhabited by a minor human race (3 if you read some literature) yet has a relatively low population. In this case I had Drexilthar as an up-and-coming reaver state in the post-2I setting, and ultimately being nuked by Cleon I's forces during the reaver wars. Hence, the locals are much less numerous as of the Third Imperium and hold a fairly negative view of Imperials.