How big is 1vls?

[BetterThanLife]

OK I am definitely confused. TA3 and TA6 both say that you take the ((VLS*5)/1000)/14=starship Tonnage. (VLS times 5 divided by 1000 and again by 14 to get starship tons.) But the rulebook sizes for vehicle components, that are both in the vehicle design and starship design make 1000vls=1 starship ton. And the "Standard designs" also show this when you put vehicles on starships. Which is correct? Under the TA#3/7 formula a G-Carrier is just over 3.5 tons. The air/raft from the rule book is just over 2 tons. And you can get low berths for vehicles that are only .17 tons. (But they cost the same as a low berth on a starship.) And a small cabin for a vehicle is only .72 tons. (Since one ton is 1.5 meters by 3 meters by 3 meters. It would be difficult to fit a bed in there and stand up. Much less have life support and a fresher in there.)

Anyone know?

 

[mike wightman]

This is one of my nit-picks with the design sequences. The vl (vehicle volume) creates more confusion than it solves.
Anyway, page 223 THB gives:
1vl = 10 litres
Therefore 100vl = 1000litres or 1 cubic metre

1 displacement ton = 14m3
therefore 1dt = 1400vl

The vl scale makes for BattleDress and a purser robot 30 and 10 times human volume.

An explantion I have seen is that vl is also supposed to represent mass or density, but this is just a fudge IMHO.

 

[Flynn]

Hey, Sigg,

I believe that the definition on pg 223 is in error, because the THB also defines 100vl as being equivalent in size to a human being on pg 235.

In view of the conflict, I fall back on previous CT canon, Book 8: Robots specifically, where a human being is defined as being roughly equal in volume to 100 liters.

Since one human being equals both 100 liters and 100 vls, by the associative property of mathematics, 100 liters should be equal to 100 vls.

Therefore, one vl should equal one liter in terms of volume. For me, then, to settle the conflict within the THB, I've decided to settle it for my own use based on CT canon, and go with 1 vl = 1 liter.

Of course, in previous conversations on this matter, it's been pointed out (by you, if I recall correctly) that the average human volume runs from 55 l to 85 l. Taking an average, the volume of a human would thus be 70 l.

Using this value and the associative property, 100 vls = 70 l, which means that one vl should equal 0.7 l.

Kinda confusing, but it's very close to the value arrived at using CT canon, so I'm personally cool with using 1 vl = 1 l.

But I do believe that a correction for pg 223 does need to be put into the errata.

Hope this adds to the conversation,
Flynn

 

[BetterThanLife]

And that isn't what either the design sequence implies nor the formula in TA3 or TA6. YIKES!!!

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
This is one of my nit-picks with the design sequences. The vl (vehicle volume) creates more confusion than it solves.
Anyway, page 223 THB gives:
1vl = 10 litres
Therefore 100vl = 1000litres or 1 cubic metre

1 displacement ton = 14m3
therefore 1dt = 1400vl

The vl scale makes for BattleDress and apurser robot 30 and 10 times human volume.

An explantion I have seen is that vl is also supposed to represent mass or density, but this is just a fudge IMHO.

 

[tjoneslo]

I agree with Sigg Oddra on this one. The use of a VL for both weight and volume causes much confusion in the design process.

In TA3/6, I changed the VL conversion for weight/volume from the THB, so the vehicle designs would come out closer to their real world counterparts.

The other problem is the starship "tons" also represent both weight and volume (a problem copied from Book 5). So if you try and convert VLs to either weight or volume and put it into the starship "tons" space, it breaks.

The only way to do this an keep sane is to keep the vehicle size measurements in VLs and the Starship size measurments in "tons". Neither of these abstracted units have any relation to any real world unit. Not a great answer, but if you are starting into serious gearheading, I would recommend some alternate design systems for you.

 

[mike wightman]

I've recently purchaced GURPS vehicles to go with Starships.
In the crew and controls section:

crew work-station table, converted to vl

cramped - 56vl (20cf)
normal - 85vl (30cf)
roomy - 113vl (40cf)

bridge access (someone can walk around the work-station) - x3

It is not unreasonable to suppose a seated human takes up a lot of space, especially when the seat, controls and space to move are figured into the above volumes.
The only part I can't accept is the idea that a human body occupies 100vl.
A human sized robot and Battle Dress should be in the 10-30vl (100-300 litres) range going by the book. Mass-wise though they could be up to 10 times heavier depending on the density of the machinery and armour.

 

[Flynn]

Sigg,

It depends on how you define vl, doesn't it? For my purposes, I define use the human body as my definition, so 100vl does equal the volume of a human body. Once I accept that as the definition of the term 'vl', I can build things in relation to the size of the human body, so it becomes more "believable", so to speak. Thus, a 'vl' becomes an abstract term for something that equals one-one hundredth of the volume of a human body.

Have you considered taking this route before?

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[mike wightman]

Hi Flynn,
your argument for 1vl to be 1 litre is a good fix

. But, as you say, this makes the conversion between vl and dt in the book wrong . Also, how does it affect the size of the standard vehicles?
Perhaps we need three scales, litres, vl and dt for personal scale, vehicle scale and ship scale .

 

[Flynn]

As far as comparing vehicles to human sizes, I think it works very well. The proportions remain the same. (And it makes battledress somewhat reasonable...)

I haven't looked at it in comparison to the vessel construction rules. I do hope it gets addressed in errata sometime.

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[mike wightman]

I agree, 300litre Battledress and 100litre robots sound about right.
Would you divide the costs by 10 as well when constructing on this scale or stick with what is given?
Looking at the vehicle standard designs you would have to stick with 1vl is 10 litres for vehicles otherwise they would be too small (a 1000litre or 1 cubic metre jeep is a bit small )
You're definately right about this needing errata/clarification.

 

[Commander Drax]

Hi, I consider vl to simply be a floating unit of volume, it could be 1 litre, 5 litre or 10 litre, or whatever.

designing battle dress, personal items 1 vl=1 litre.

Vehicles (actual size) 1 vl = 5 litres
Vehicles (Volume required for storage) 1 vl=10 litres (so that you've got room for access and conduct repairs in the hanger etc.)

For units of 1000 vl I just round up to the nearest displacement ton again to allow for storage requirements, giving luxurious amounts of room for repairs and a reduction in DC to reflect this lack of cramped conditions not to mention accomodating odd shaped chassis of vehicles.

Though technically, 1000 Vl= 10,000 litres, or 10 kl/m3 = 0.714 displacement ton (1 ton =14 m3/kl or 1400 vl)

so to be quick and dirty, a 10,000 vl vehicle can comfortably fit in a 10 ton hanger/garage and have ample room for repair and maintainance, as it really only takes approximately just over 7 tons of volume, though to be pedantic the vehicles actual size might only be 3.5 tons, but it might be unusually long, tall, or have flared lifting surfaces etc. It's a fudge but I try to be consistent.

 

[mike wightman]

Hello Commander.
That's an interesting fix, a variable volume scale depending on what is being designed. I just hope that by the time a T20 FF&S or a second edition of the basic game are produced that this has been sorted properly.
Your simple fix works though, so I hope you don't mind if I borrow it

 

[LordVince]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Looking at the vehicle standard designs you would have to stick with 1vl is 10 litres for vehicles otherwise they would be too small (a 1000litre or 1 cubic metre jeep is a bit small )

Why would a 1 cubic metre jeep be a bit small? Sounda like a Quadrunner, to me?
Or, are you saying that the vehicle design rules would allow you to put 4 passengers into a 1 cubic metre-sized vehicle -- like a "regular" jeep carries?

 

[Commander Drax]

Thanks Sigg Oddra, it's a fix, and like yourself hope that the vl issue can be resolved into a solid and easy to use measure of volume, back in the old days I had no problems with KL, M3 or tons, so vl was a bit of a strange departure.

Thanks for the feed back

Commander Drax

 

[TKalbfus]

100 vl is the size of a human, a human also weighs about 100 kg. A human has roughly the same density as water and according to the m.k.s system a liter of water weighs 1 kg. Therefore it seems to me that 1 vl = 1 liter. Otherwise a 100 vl person would weigh 1000 kg.

 

[mike wightman]

The vl scale as presented in the book is broken.
All we can do is keep using work arounds and house rules (or different vehicle design systems) until it is either officially scrapped or fixed.
IMHO
YMMV

 

[TKalbfus]

Why not just use liters? vl probably stands for volume liters. 1000 liters = 1 metric ton of water in both weight and volume. I don't know off hand what the density of liquid hydrogen is, or which tonnage of starships is measured.

 

[mike wightman]

1vl = 1 litre works well for personal scale, but is too small for vehicle scale.
In the rulebook 1400vl = 1 displacement ton(a starship ton)
(1dt = 14cubic metres)

 

[TKalbfus]

So apparently 1 vl = 1 liter and 100 liters = 1 cubic meter. Why not just use liters instead of vl?

 

[mike wightman]

Nope ,
1vl = 10 litres and 1000litres = 1 cubic metre

1400vl = 14 cubic metres
100vl = 1 cubic metre
1cubic metre = 1000litres
100vl = 1000litres
1vl = 10 litres

Where did the idea for the vl come from I wonder, and I wonder what the playtest comments on it were?