How deadly is T20?

[mike wightman]

One of the things that has come up time and time again when people are asked about "why do you like Traveller" is the realistic combat.

Is combat in Traveller realistic? No, not at all. It involves abstractions and rolling dice.

What it does do very well is make players afraid of losing their characters in combat, that's the realistic part IMHO.

People don't go into fights thinking "I've got 57 points of stamina, no rifle is going to kill me" in Traveller...

 

[Laryssa]

No single rifle may kill you, but if there is a whole bunch of people firing rifles at you, your going to be in trouble. What a really deadly RPG does is make you avoid combat all the time, and the GM has the difficult task of finding a suitable challenge that doesn't kill the whole party outright when on shot can kill you outright its much harder to find game balance, unless you introduce alot of noncombat game challenges, like how do you solve this puzzle sort of problems where the player has to scratch his head and either he snaps his fingers and says, "I got it!" or he doesn't, and he continues scratching his head for some time and other players get bored with this frusterating puzzle that the GM thought would be so easy to solve. If all the characters do is shake hands and say, "how do you do?" with all the friendly NPCs in your world, some people might find this just a tad dull, yet introduce some thugs who want to kill the PCsm then they'll either succeed or they'll get blown away by the PCs, and it all could depend on which side gets initiative in the first round. In D&D by contrast the combat plays out over several roundsm the PCs get an idea of whose winning and whose losing by how many hit points they have lost, in deadlier T20 you find out by how many PCs get killed! At least in D&D you know when discretion is a better part of valour without losing too many player characters you can retreat if retreat is an option. In similarly stacked odds in T20, it could be all over in the first round.

The balance is finer in T20, there is much less margin for error.

 

[c_osborne]

Sort of like real life. Hence the term 'more realistic', despite the abstractions in the mechanics.

I like my Traveller that way. My players avoid combat most of the time, just like most sane people would in real life. But when they have to fight, they fight smart, and use every advantage they can get. And it works. We don't have constant deaths, and when we do, it's usually because somebody screwed up.

There's nothing wrong with the combat system. Of course that doesn't mean it's going to work for everybody, and of course anyone is free to change it for their own game. But that's just personal preference, not a broken system.

 

[Laryssa]

Of course if the PCs aren't looking for a fight, they stay in civilized areas, and teh fight will have to come looking for them in the most unlikely places. For instance the PCs decide to go shopping and somebody in the crowd is shooting at them because he is insane. Then a robber tries to pick pocket them, and the very next instant a wild animal escapes from the zoo and attacks the PCs, followed by a couple of bank robbers who just made a heist and the police have them cornered right where the PCs are. Then a Drug dealer fights with another drug dealer in the same area that the PCs are walking, and then a girl runs out of her apartment and gets really friendly with one of the PCs and her boyfriend just happens to be a Mob boss and they start shooting at the PCs. Then the PCs robot is defective and starts attacking the PCs. Is that how you'd GM a Traveller game, where trouble goes looking for the PCs and where ever the PCs go trouble always follows?

 

[princelian]

Some crazy guy in the crowd starts randomly shooting: what Law Level is this world? What are the law enforcement guys/robots going to do about it? In real life, such an incident results in several dead people, and if the PCs are the target of such an attack, assuming they're unarmored and the lunatic has an effective weapon, that'll be true in Traveller.

It's also a terrible example - how would such a lunatic, with such a significant chance of causing PC death, move the storyline along? If the intent is merely to show that the GM can take away a player character's life at any time, then I'd say that's a problem with the GM.

A robber trying to pickpocket them: this either succeeds (and the party doesn't learn about the theft until later) or fails and they give chase. Who says they pull automatic weapons and try to gun him down? Depending on the local Law Level, they'd suffer fire from the constabulary if they even draw weapons. But generally, such a scenario is either filler or leads to the next stage of the plot hook. (He runs them into an ambush, say, by the local crime lord, who needs the group to do him a favor. I don't like using such strongarm tactics all the time, but sometimes it can be a good adventure hook.)

Wild animal escapes from the zoo: This is really no different from an encounter with alien fauna (or ambulatory flora) on some world the party's landed on to refuel or trade. It can be nasty - even fatal, if it's a big enough or venemous enough creature - but usually not fatal. Animals, after all, are animals, and behave as such. Loud noises, distractions, and intelligent behavior by the PCs can defeat animals. Lion-like creature might be distracted at a critical moment by a holo-projection from the party member's wrist-computer or sometehing, say.

Bank robbers: The police had darn well better be careful. There are consequences for killing civilians, especially ones that have a good statistical chance of being TAS members or nobility. Bad things happening to Imperial citizens on worlds tends to attract the Imperium, which no local government wants. If it's the robbers who are opening fire wantonly, then the party might be in trouble, but this kind of random PC death is bad for the campaign (see comment about madman, above).

Drug dealers, mob boss boyfriends, and defective robots, oh my! These are all variants, in the Traveller combat system, of "I feel like killing a PC or two today for no reason other than to (a) demonstrate my own power or (b) demonstrate how randomly deadly the universe is or (c) both."

It's bad Traveller GM-ing from the get-go, because none of these situations, as presented, create a story beyond a short declaritive statement such as "Player A's character died today under the fangs of an escaped zooid."

However, let's create another situation, using the madman:

The world is C555644-8, and the party is in the most populous city (100,000 people). It's a fairly rough place (Law Level 4) and some people go about openly armed.

The party is chasing down the spare part they need in a rougher part of this town when the bricks and mortar next to them heads explodes in a shower of stone fragments. A sniper! Although he missed the PC [which he was not aiming for] the bullet has taken down a street vendor. A second round (the sniper's got at least a +6/+1 BAB) narrowly misses a PC [or if he hits, he doesn't kill that PC]. He's firing on the party!

The players had BETTER find cover! They'd better also be careful of the severity of their response or they may face legal problems, depending on the government type and/or the connections of the crazy guy.

However, if the players don't take cover and just stand there without taking action....well....kill some of them. Sniper + sniper rifle + human bodies = bad. They need to understand that.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Princelian,
Well put. Move the story line along. Roleplaying not Rollplaying.

Characters die. In the line of work that most Players engage, it is going to happen. (Not neccessarily Player Characters die.) But random violence except to set the mood that this is a particularily bad place to hang out? Sure! Do you have to fire on a character to do that? No, killing an innocent passerby gets the same message accross.

Besides, as A Traveller Referee, rolling up characters takes time. Hell it takes my time, time that could be spent doing more productive things, like working on the next encounter or next leg of the journey, or Heaven Forbid, work and make money.

Real life in the big city is dangerous. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time then you can get killed. Traveller is the same way. People don't stand and take fire from heavy Automatics, much less shotguns or rifles while they calmly line up their target and shoot back. (And they certainly don't stand there and get hit multiple times while they calmly stand there and line up their target.)

Real world, Suppressive fire works, even if you never hit the people you are suppressing. In Traveller things work the same way. If they don't then people die, quickly and messily. Realistic combat system, to me means that things in the game should work in a similar manner to the way they would work in the real world.

Zoe had it right. "You know what the definition of a hero is? It is someone that gets other people killed." The part she leaves out is the person getting killed is generally the would be hero.

 

[Laryssa]

Originally posted by princelian:
Drug dealers, mob boss boyfriends, and defective robots, oh my! These are all variants, in the Traveller combat system, of "I feel like killing a PC or two today for no reason other than to (a) demonstrate my own power or (b) demonstrate how randomly deadly the universe is or (c) both."

It's bad Traveller GM-ing from the get-go, because none of these situations, as presented, create a story beyond a short declaritive statement such as "Player A's character died today under the fangs of an escaped zooid."

On the other hand, random encounters serve as a distraction. Not every encounter is going to be essential to the overall plot. the trick is finding out which ones are. If the PCs are tracking down some mastermind criminal and they get robbed by the pick pocket, it could be that the pick pocket is only greedy or wanted the PCs money, but doesn't have information about the master criminal that the PCs are seeking, on the other hand he could be recruited and serve as the "Thief" in the PCs party, that is if they can trust him. For every essential encounter their should be a nonessential random encounter. The PCs should then have to pick out the essential parts from the random noise of encounters. If every encounter had relevance to the storyline, then it should be very easy for the PCs to follow the trail, the GM shouldn't make it too easy for them. With T20, the GM should allow time for the PCs to recover from the last combat. A dungeon type setting with one encounter immediately after another would tend to kill the PCs, but if you alow them time to seek medical treatment, then just about any kind of damage is curable.

 

[marvo]

No matter how you look at it, or which rules system is used, the bottom line is the same. It's a game and you are supposed to have fun playing it. You can make it super-realistic or as abstract as you want, it just has to be a happy medium that the GM and the players agree on.

 

[c_osborne]

True, it's all about having fun.

I tend to put in randon encounters now and then, but they are usually not seriously deadly, and they often lead to new plot hooks the PCs can choose to follow if they wish.

For me the important thing is the story, and I've found that if you give the players a little wiggle room, they tend to get themselves in plenty of trouble without me needing to insert extra. Lots of times they even create new paths on the story for me.

I figure it this way. Not every encounter should be related to the main plot, but at the same time, if random violence (not of their own doing) follows the PCs, then that is just as unrealistic as no random encounters at all. It only takes a few coincidences to break the beleivability.

Chad

 

[mike wightman]

Most of my violent random encounters are variations on the bar room brawl.
Basically, the locals don't take kindly to these strange offworlders poking their noses into other people's business. Either the local toughs get involved, a petty criminal gang or the like etc.

Combat is usually melee, or non-lethal firearms. Just enough to warn them off.

When real guns are used things are getting serious...

 

[MJD]

In the real world, automatic weapons are deadly and combat rather serious, yet we cope. Troops know to take cover and use suppressive fire, and so on.

Point is, Traveller is deadly if you're unlucky or dumb. If you want to just draw your weapon and shoot the bad guys, chances are you're going to get hit. If you take cover and maneuver, chances are better.

So the Traveller universe is dangerous.... deal with it.

If you treat Traveller like an old-style D&D game where you encounter many sets of bad guys and fight them on the way to the target, then yeah, characters are going to die.

I tend to find that combat is less freqnent but memorable and a bit scary. In between times the travellers are interacting with people, doing stuff... struggling past problems that arent solvable with violence - or maybe they are, but there might be a different way...

 

[Laryssa]

Talking just doesn't have the same level of suspense as a life and death situation.

 

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
Talking just doesn't have the same level of suspense as a life and death situation.

You clearly haven´t played in some of the groups I know.

 

[Laryssa]

Have the majority of your character levels been accumulated through prior history or through playing the game?

If you used prior history and your character basically stayed at the same level he started out at, and you've had alot of fun without rolling a single die, then good for you. You just keep the T20 Book handy incase an NPC you are talking with suddenly decides to pull a gun on you and start shooting, then your character dies and you start giving the GM dirty looks.

Player: "Like, what did you do that for?"
GM: As you lay there bleeding, the man who shot you takes your wallet.
Player: But he only did 11 points of damage!
GM: To your lifeblood, Heh heh heh!

 

[Rover]

As much as I love things cinematic, and find a good gunfight in the game as entertaing as the next guy, it is not the only way to gain experience.

Good roleplay, solving problems, and accomplishing a mission can all lead to XP. Not just combat

R

 

[c_osborne]

I agree. Violent encounters will happen, and far more frequently than in real life (unless you live in a war zone), but the game can progress quite well without them for extended periods, and you can get the same level of tension with just the threat of violence (characters required to perform clandestine activities in enemy territory, avoiding encounters) or even without it (characters driven by the need to prevent some catastrophe, rescue somebody, meet some critical deadline, etc.) A game where violence is the centerpiece just doesn't appeal to me.

Chad

 

[MJD]

Some people seem to think that T20 is some kind of tool to allow the Referee to massacre players. If that's how you paly, enjoy.

I've run and played T20 without the massacre factor, through some hairy combat at times.

 

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Laryssa:
Have the majority of your character levels been accumulated through prior history or through playing the game?

If you used prior history and your character basically stayed at the same level he started out at, and you've had alot of fun without rolling a single die, then good for you. You just keep the T20 Book handy incase an NPC you are talking with suddenly decides to pull a gun on you and start shooting, then your character dies and you start giving the GM dirty looks.

Player: "Like, what did you do that for?"
GM: As you lay there bleeding, the man who shot you takes your wallet.
Player: But he only did 11 points of damage!
GM: To your lifeblood, Heh heh heh!

If that´s how you run a game, the problem definitely is with you, not with T20.

 

[BetterThanLife]

In fact the T20 rules state that Combat isn't the way to gain experience.

If you are handing out experience for shooting people I suggest you go back and re-read pg 420 of the Traveller's Handbook. This isn't D&D. (It never has been.) My players have wound up in some brawls and some hairy fights. But the deadly fights are the exception not the rule. Yes there is tension. Yes there is excitement. Yes it is fun. (If it wasn't I doubt I would still be running this campaign.

)

My characters just gained a bunch of fresh recruits. They expect it, and they are going to get it, the Fecal Matter is about to impact the spinning turbine. The new recruits are looking forward to getting their hands dirty and the old hands are looking forward to it with some trepidation, because they know what happens when rounds start to fly.

 

[Laryssa]

Yes, of course there are story awards. When you defeat the pirates and take there treasure, there are story awards for that, but then again the pirates aren't going to go down without a fight, so you also get additional experience points for killing each one of them, or for each one that surrenders because he doesn't want to die. Generally you have to kill enough pirates to make them believe that they haven't got a chance and the rest will surrender when that becomes apparent, sometimes this can occur when the pirates are obviously overwhelmed by superior weapons and outnumbered and their is no means for the pirates to escape, otherwise if the pirates feel they can escape but can't win, then they will try to escape. If the pirates think they might win then they are going to fight.

So you would award experience points as follows.

1) If the PCs lose and are killed or captured by the pirates they get no experience points, however if they manage to escape afterwards, they get some for pulling off a successful escape.

2) If the PCs fight and kill some pirates but still lose and are captured, the PCs get some experience points for each pirate they killed.

3) If the PCs fight and defeat the pirates in a combat encounter, they get experience points for each pirate they killed and each pirate that surrendered, but if some pirates escape and remain uncaptured, the PCs don't get experience points for them.

4) If the PCs kill or capture all of the pirates and put an end to their activity, the PCs get experience points for each pirate killed or captured plus story award experience points for ending the Pirate menace.

5) In addition to the award above, the GM may choose to award the PCs for any of the pirate treasure they managed to capture in their combat with the pirates.

Does that sound fair? The do similar awards in D&D, they also award story points. In the case of the pirate encounter the treasure is the capture of stolen items, either the return thereof or the keeping of it.