How good is battle dress?

[Shadowfax]

Yes, it is another post about battle dress. Sorry, but the post about BD skill got me thinking about this. Unfortunately, its not explained all too well in CT.

I have read all the entries about BD being the "ultimate in personal protection". Your ST is doubled through the servo-powered limbs. Your Endurance is unlimited and according to striker you have an armor value of 18, which means you can take a shot from a LAG, 9mm ACR, 4mm tech 13 Gauss Rifle, tech 13 laser carbine or even a 80mm Recoilless Rifle firing HE without blinking! Ok, well maybe you blink with the Recoilless rifle, but still you are still pretty likely survive it. Yet, a tech 6 HEAT rifle grenade will do you in. It has an 18 penetration!

I am just trying to figure out, once again how realistic and effective this stuff is. I mean, on one hand you can't be touched by most small arms fire, but how does DB stand up to say a molotov cocktail or a improvised satchel charge hurled by a low tech Garda-Vilis Boer?

What kind of structure does it have is it ceramic, metal, plastic teflon a mix of the above? Does it use any kind of gravetic field to stop Kinetic Energy?

What about if someone wearing it is hit by a ground car? Does the wearer take damage?

If this stuff is soóoo expensive and yet as useless as the armor the storm troopers wore in star wars, then what is the point? Anybody got some insight/input on this?

Give me your thoughts.....

 

[aramis]

AV 18 makes most small arms pretty useless.

Pen ≥ 2x AV = full damage
Pen ≥ AV = x1/2 damage
Pen < AV = x0.1 damage if not full coverage, x0 if full coverage.

This means that Pen 18 HEAT does damage 3 ON A CONTACT HIT.; it does nothing past that, or maybe 0.3 damage. Which means, by hit margin:
M D
0 0.15 = 0
1 0.3 = 0
2 0.6 = 1 (minimum)
4 =1.2 = 2 (minimum)
8 = 2.4 = 4 (minimum)

That HEAT round only hurts on contact hits; it's an anti-tank round.

Almost all direct pen small arms do under a point to BD except on exceptional hits.

 

[Shadowfax]

AV 18 makes most small arms pretty useless.

Pen ≥ 2x AV = full damage
Pen ≥ AV = x1/2 damage
Pen < AV = x0.1 damage if not full coverage, x0 if full coverage.

This means that Pen 18 HEAT does damage 3 ON A CONTACT HIT.; it does nothing past that, or maybe 0.3 damage. Which means, by hit margin:
M D
0 0.15 = 0
1 0.3 = 0
2 0.6 = 1 (minimum)
4 =1.2 = 2 (minimum)
8 = 2.4 = 4 (minimum)

That HEAT round only hurts on contact hits; it's an anti-tank round.

Almost all direct pen small arms do under a point to BD except on exceptional hits.

A tech 7 HEAP grenade has a penetration of 18, so that would do the trick right?

What about a shot from an 88mm? What does that do to BD?

What about a 20mm or 40mm FLAK?

What about a 37mm 47mm AT gun?

What if a grenade goes off a few feet from the BD? I mean, the wearer is going to suffer from the concussion isn't s/he? Would a grenade explosion rip the suit to shreds?

How good are these damned suits. IMTU wearing BD is almost as good as being in a modern day APC. Its that good. Its almost like wearing a Bradley! That doesn't seem ver realistic to me, but I want that stuff to be kick-a--. If you know what I mean? How do you do run in in YTU?

 

[Supplement Four]

Yes, it is another post about battle dress. Sorry, but the post about BD skill got me thinking about this. Unfortunately, its not explained all too well in CT.

Remember that CT is much more than just Books 1-8. Like many huge rpgs, especially of the time, D&D included, rules are spread out all over the place.

There's at least two good JTAS articles on Battledress, describing weapon systems, TLs, and all sorts of stuff. Plus, other publishers (DGP in their Traveller's Digest, and, I think, JG in one of their magazines).

 

[aramis]

Sorry: THis is in MegaTraveller terms:

AV 18 makes most small arms pretty useless.

Pen ≥ 2x AV = full damage
Pen ≥ AV = x1/2 damage
Pen < AV = x0.1 damage if not full coverage, x0 if full coverage.

This means that Pen 18 HEAT does damage 3 ON A CONTACT HIT.; it does nothing past that, or maybe 0.3 damage. Which means, by hit margin:
M D
0 0.15 = 0
1 0.3 = 0
2 0.6 = 1 (minimum)
4 =1.2 = 2 (minimum)
8 = 2.4 = 4 (minimum)

That HEAT round only hurts on contact hits; it's an anti-tank round.

Almost all direct pen small arms do under a point to BD except on exceptional hits.

MT Damage points turn into CT dice of damage post combat.

A tech 7 HEAP grenade has a penetration of 18, so that would do the trick right?

What about a shot from an 88mm? What does that do to BD?

What about a 20mm or 40mm FLAK?

What about a 37mm 47mm AT gun?

What if a grenade goes off a few feet from the BD? I mean, the wearer is going to suffer from the concussion isn't s/he? Would a grenade explosion rip the suit to shreds?

How good are these damned suits. IMTU wearing BD is almost as good as being in a modern day APC. Its that good. Its almost like wearing a Bradley! That doesn't seem ver realistic to me, but I want that stuff to be kick-a--. If you know what I mean? How do you do run in in YTU?

At 1.5m, the HEAP grenade won't take out TL14 BD. The wearer takes NO DAMAGE. On a direct hit, he takes 3 MT hits, modified for hit quality... that is, in CT terms 3d damage. In short, it's only gonna kill a wimp, or when a high-quality hit happens.

In CT, which doesn't use the pen/damage mechanics of MT, that BD is gonna bounce most hits.

Anything short of a genuine anti-tank weapon can be shrugged off by Battledress as described in AHL, Striker, and their bastard child, MT.

Hit margin, btw, is the difference between the needed roll to hit and the actual roll to hit.

Oh, and the way AHL works it, instead of MT

Oh a hit
2d6+Pen-AV for
4-7=light wound (penalty)
8-11= serious wound (KO)
12+ = dead

So you have to actualy direct hit the trooper, and you'll wound, but have only a 3% chance of kill, 45% chance of KO....

Pen halved in same square but not direct hit. WHich Means 2d6+9-18; max roll = 3(= 12+9-18) means no damage at all.

Halved again at 1.5m from impact is pen 5... a CES provides decent protection.

 

[stealth]

Check your indirect fire rules.

I'd like to point out that RAM grenades and tossed grenades hit on 11+, not 7+.

That's what makes battle dress work until you blunder into large-bore auto-cannon fire or get hit by a guided missle.

 

[BlackBat242]

Check your indirect fire rules.

I'd like to point out that RAM grenades and tossed grenades hit on 11+, not 7+.

If you are using your RAM (Rocket Assisted Munition) grenade launcher in indirect-fire mode.

An Aslan merc I played liked using her RAM GL as a direct-fire weapon... at med to short ranges!

Like where she was created... in a convention Traveller tournament when they were hired to re-take an orbital mining station (circling a gas giant) from terrorists.
Some 5-6 shots at less than 20m inside the station and she never missed once.
The range meant she got hits on 8+ (if I correctly remember from 23 years ago).
Every grenade (HE only, she was nuts, not stupid) impacted a terrorist while the rocket motor was still firing, thus the ref ruled the grenade penetrated their unarmored torso before detonating!
Their bodies absorbed most of the fragments of the casing, eliminating collateral damage.

The ref was eagerly waiting for her to miss, so he could tell us how she just damaged some survival-critical system... but she never did, much to his disappointment.

 

[sabredog]

This is my take on how good it is with TL modifiers, and the active and passive systems it carries for both offense and defense.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=20073

Now I figure if you hit it with a vehicle the kinetic damage is going to be transferred to the wearer the same as any kinetic energy weapon. But I always figure the suit absorbs the damage in such a way that it effectively doubles the damage a character can take - the suit is "killed" when the numbers are reduced to zero, but the guy inside (maybe even trapped inside until someone can get a can-opener) will only have 1/2 the damage added to hits characteristics that was recorded.

That still might be enough to kill or render him unconscious, but that's better than you get with any other armor and I think it is a fair simulation of the damage to the suit. The Assault Suits the Drop Troops wear have triple the effect since they are much heavier and more advanced.

I also have a chart (in the above link) that shows the increased modifiers I use for the CT classic combat system to represent how much harder it is to even damage suits at TL-15 compared to when they first show up at TL-13.

 

[Icosahedron]

My take:
There are several ways to kill a person; penetration, impact shock wave, burning, or mega knock back impact damage (probably more, but that'll do for now)

BD reduces the chance of penetration to almost nil, spreads shock wave over the whole armour, reducing it to almost nil, is impervious to burning, and will absorb a large amount of knockback damage. I reckon you could get hit by a car or fall off a bike without getting hurt too much. No doubt the suits are padded inside.

The thing that will start to do damage is inertia - getting your brain shaken inside your skull, having your internal organs mauled about, etc, when the knockback gets too big, or when the penetrations and shock get big enough to damage the suit.
I don's see them having force-fields or anything, though the fire-control systems might be able to operate your weapon in point-defence mode.

 

[sabredog]

The thing that will start to do damage is inertia - getting your brain shaken inside your skull, having your internal organs mauled about, etc, when the knockback gets too big, or when the penetrations and shock get big enough to damage the suit.

Absolutely: lateral impacts of enough force can rip your aorta. Its' the most common cause of fatal internal injury in auto accidents that haven't resulted from external trauma. It happens either from rapid deceleration or lateral impact. I can easily see similar things happening to guys in BD.

 

[Shadowfax]

I don's see them having force-fields or anything, though the fire-control systems might be able to operate your weapon in point-defence mode.

There has been no mention of it in CT, but if they have gravetics technology capable of creating artificial gravities on starships, then it would stand to reason they might also run a gravetic field through the armor designed to modulate against any incoming impact there-by further reducing the effects of said impact on the wearer. I am not saying a force shield the likes of dune (which btw. would make a cool ancients artifact), but just a field that helps counter, absorb and re-channel the Kinetic Energy from an incoming round, blow or shock wave.

This might be what tech-16 armor does.

I also think that there is room around tech 11 for a type of suit that would be like a sort of pygmy battle mech. This would be the precursor to battle dress and would be a bit like the loader that Ripley used in Aliens.

This mech would not be huge like the mechs in battle tech, but it would make the wearer a bit taller and larger. The armor would be like battle dress and the power system the same, but bit less developed, so that you'd have to refuel it every so many hours.

These suits would be more like a vehicle than BD at the beginning and they would slowly disappear as technology makes the minimization of the suits possible and the development process ripens.

I could see the Sworld Worlders using these mechs extensively for some reason.

 

[Shadowfax]

Remember that CT is much more than just Books 1-8. Like many huge rpgs, especially of the time, D&D included, rules are spread out all over the place.

Yes, it was a disease of my time I guess.

There's at least two good JTAS articles on Battledress, describing weapon systems, TLs, and all sorts of stuff. Plus, other publishers (DGP in their Traveller's Digest, and, I think, JG in one of their magazines).

I have probably read them and forgotten them. I'll have to look again. I don't think that I ever read Travellers Digest.

You guys kill me with all the TLAs DGP?, JG?

Ever read white dwarf? I need to find something like a traveller ultimate article index I guess. I am sure there is one, but you know how it is there is work and real life and all those other things that get in the way of my serious pursuits like gaming.

 

[Shadowfax]

I'd like to point out that RAM grenades and tossed grenades hit on 11+, not 7+.

That's what makes battle dress work until you blunder into large-bore auto-cannon fire or get hit by a guided missle.

This is a very good point. I did not know that. Must have missed it somewhere in the rules. Wow! 11+ that is pretty hard! That seems steep. That is for RAM (rocket assisted munitions) grenades.

At effective range you can hit with an RPG easier than that. I wonder if the 11+ should just have been for rifle grenades?

I guess I am confused a bit about what a RAM grenade is by CT definition. I thought it included RPGs and man portable rocket launchers/GLs? When I read the description in Book 4 Mercenary it just sounds like an M203 with a rocket assist. Mercenary doesn't seem to cover RPGs and man portable rocket launchers like the Law, Karl-Gustav, Milan, TOW or Dragon or do they?

TAC Missiles are bigger. There seems to be nothing in between, which makes me think that maybe RAMS are supposed to include the above-mentioned weapons, but its not really all that clear.

Ah, I just found the note! It says, " Note: At tech 6, 7 and 8 a variety of specialized anti-tank grenade and rocket launchers are also in use, ranging from one - shot disposable grenade launchers to tube launched rockets."

But of course there is no description of these weapons - very CT if I may allow myself to say so.

For an RPG I could see the following to hit rolls:

Effective 8+
Long 11+
Extreme 14+ (you'd need to have good skills or special sights/guidance systems to hit this far away)


"No, I did not know that dude."

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't think that I ever read Travellers Digest.

The Traveller Digest was a FANTASTIC Traveller mag. Scoop 'em up if you find 'em.

It was published by DGP (Digest Group Publications), which, in my opinion, and that of many others, is one of the best publishers of Traveller material that ever existed. They published stuff for both CT and MT, including the incredible Grand Census and Grand Survey for CT (and the World Builder's Handbook for MT).

Fantastic stuff.

You guys kill me with all the TLAs DGP?, JG?

TLA? I'm not sure.

DGP = Digest Group Publications

JG = Judges Guild

Ever read white dwarf?

I have all the WD Traveller articles. It's also a great resource for CT.

White Dwarf. JTAS (Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society). Dragon. Traveller's Digest.

These are all exceptional sources of material for Traveller (CT).

WD is notable in that it, along with TD, provides several adventures for use in a game while the other mags tend to focus on supplementary material.

 

[aramis]

TLA = Three Letter Acronym/Abbreviation (as appropriate)

 

[Icosahedron]

There has been no mention of it in CT, but if they have gravetics technology capable of creating artificial gravities on starships, then it would stand to reason they might also run a gravetic field through the armor designed to modulate against any incoming impact there-by further reducing the effects of said impact on the wearer. I am not saying a force shield the likes of dune (which btw. would make a cool ancients artifact), but just a field that helps counter, absorb and re-channel the Kinetic Energy from an incoming round, blow or shock wave.

This might be what tech-16 armor does.

IMTU, this sort of stuff is too big for battledress. You might cram it into a very large vehicle, but generally, 'repulsors' are, like Meson guns, Starship equipment.

I also think that there is room around tech 11 for a type of suit that would be like a sort of pygmy battle mech. This would be the precursor to battle dress and would be a bit like the loader that Ripley used in Aliens.

This mech would not be huge like the mechs in battle tech, but it would make the wearer a bit taller and larger. The armor would be like battle dress and the power system the same, but bit less developed, so that you'd have to refuel it every so many hours.

These suits would be more like a vehicle than BD at the beginning and they would slowly disappear as technology makes the minimization of the suits possible and the development process ripens.

I could see the Sworld Worlders using these mechs extensively for some reason.

I have mini-mechas, updated to TL15 as an 'assault grade' battledress.

 

[Icosahedron]

Ever read white dwarf? I need to find something like a traveller ultimate article index I guess. I am sure there is one, but you know how it is there is work and real life and all those other things that get in the way of my serious pursuits like gaming.

<Enters stage left>
<Erects soapbox>
<Climbs soapbox>

Wouldn't do you much good, with the current copyright laws making it impossible to obtain stuff that's in copyright but out of print (unless you stumble across a secondhand copy).

I don't have any of the WD material, but I'd happily pay a dollar or two per article to a print-on-demand clearing house for out-of-print Traveller articles.

Won't happen, though, so I'll do without the information and the author will do without the money. Sensible, eh?

<Decends soapbox>
<Shoulders soapbox>
<Exits stage right>

 

[aramis]

Icos: let's not drag this into a copyright discussion, as that ties closely to politics.

On topic:
Borrowing back from MT to striker...
TL13 BT is AV 10, same as TL12 Combat
TL11 combat is AV 8
TL14 combat and BD are AV18

So TL11 BD should probably be AV8, STR boost, DEX penalty...
But not mecha-like. More just looking like Class V body armor. About 8cm thick, covering whole body.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Alba gu brÀth!

Ach, laddie ... tha oonly real ba 'ell dress is tha Tartan Kilt!

 

[BlackBat242]