How good is battle dress?
- Thread starter Shadowfax
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Cool, I get to talk Army!
I've fired both the M-203 grenade launcher and the LAWS rocket. I was really good with the M-203 (best in platoon?) and could put a grenade through a window at 150m about half the time. That's with indirect sights.
Aiming the LAWS with its flip up direct sight I could probably do the same. I think I could manage to hit a soviet BPR at about that range. And what is a RAM grenade if not that?
By comparison, with the M-16, an actual direct fire weapon, I could hit a pop-up target in the head at 300m about half the time, and that's "expert" level in the army or so.
That means if a guy popped up in that window 150m away, I'd shoot him in the head.
To me, that means the rocket vs. the guy in battle armour is a much harder target than rifle vs. guy in battle armour, so I had no problem with the indirect rule.
Of course, you could just spend Cr5,000 on a 10kg tac missle - like a stinger. But everyone will shoot you first
I've fired both the M-203 grenade launcher and the LAWS rocket. I was really good with the M-203 (best in platoon?) and could put a grenade through a window at 150m about half the time. That's with indirect sights.
Aiming the LAWS with its flip up direct sight I could probably do the same. I think I could manage to hit a soviet BPR at about that range. And what is a RAM grenade if not that?
By comparison, with the M-16, an actual direct fire weapon, I could hit a pop-up target in the head at 300m about half the time, and that's "expert" level in the army or so.
That means if a guy popped up in that window 150m away, I'd shoot him in the head.
To me, that means the rocket vs. the guy in battle armour is a much harder target than rifle vs. guy in battle armour, so I had no problem with the indirect rule.
Of course, you could just spend Cr5,000 on a 10kg tac missle - like a stinger. But everyone will shoot you first
What about hunter-seeker drones? Small drones that float around on grav until they see a guy in BD bouncing along. Then they accelerate towards him and use either a self-forging penetrator or HEAT warhead.
VRF GG's work well against BD, as do autocannons. Heck, a bouncing betty type mine that is actively looking for BD might work well against them....so would a drone zipping over the battlefied and dropping area-denial type mines that bounce up and detonate. Or a drone that pops up when a group of BD equipped troopers are detected and fires a cloud of KEAP penetrators at the group.
Lots of ways to kill BD equipped troops. But in a combined arms use they can still be a good force multiplier.
VRF GG's work well against BD, as do autocannons. Heck, a bouncing betty type mine that is actively looking for BD might work well against them....so would a drone zipping over the battlefied and dropping area-denial type mines that bounce up and detonate. Or a drone that pops up when a group of BD equipped troopers are detected and fires a cloud of KEAP penetrators at the group.
Lots of ways to kill BD equipped troops. But in a combined arms use they can still be a good force multiplier.
Icosahedron
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Okey dokey.
I'm feeling happier today. Must be the pills, or maybe it's the pils.
Nobody here can sort out the ills of the world anyway.
Woof woof. (That's my other dog impression).
How about active camo dial-a-tartan?
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I could see BattleDress becoming more akin to Mecha as we reach the upper TL limits. And, what has been pictured before was merely functional combat armour. This would explain some of the Law Level restrictions on it. You don't want someone so armoured that it would take a hit from a Grav Tank without a single bruise. However, Mongoose has an interesting take on it (why their armour is so underpowered) which is that all armour has its weakness - a vent or gap that even a blade with enough skill could take down a man from the future.
Maybe an OFF switch? :smirk:
But seriously...look here for what it could be like in CT as both a real weapon system, not just boosted combat armor.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=20073
I agree with you; it ought to be a force multiplier and weapon in the hands of someone trained to use it. But people still freak out over the whole "mecha" theme. They have visions of Battlehawks and Robotech. Me, I just figure it's an infantry weapon and not a tank, and when you have grav tanks and fusion cannon that can hit at line of sight while flying around faster than a mech could run....and only needs to lose one leg for a soft kill....why have mechs?
Supplement Four
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I could easily see a suit like that shown in District 9 used by the Imperial Marines at TL 15.
Keklas Rekobah
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Ah hoop yah warsht yer bottom! It's aboot tah get kisst bay ah Tavrah-Cheddar!
I could easily see a suit like that shown in District 9 used by the Imperial Marines at TL 15.
I would hope it'd be better than that! That thing was taken down by assault rifles and pistols!
Something more like a battlemech, but smaller. Hey, maybe like the things seen the Avatar trailer? But with energy weapons and more armor sheathing.
I can think of only one advantage.
A mech can use buildings as cover, kneel, fire from a prone position, and (if its small, like BD) enter buildings.
Try that with a grav tank.
Really, it's just a double size infantryman. I could see it used in battle that way, especially with good IR and optical camo.
A mech can use buildings as cover, kneel, fire from a prone position, and (if its small, like BD) enter buildings.
Try that with a grav tank.
Really, it's just a double size infantryman. I could see it used in battle that way, especially with good IR and optical camo.
The problem with the "mini-mecha" mode is that there is a "can't do that" range between a thick suit and a small manned mech. A range in which only robots happen.
Battledress is, canonically, augmented combat armor. I estimate the TL15 ImpMarBaD to be 3-5cm thick, in various locations, vs the 1-2cm thick shown for combat.
TL 11 BD is probably going to be at least 2x the thickness of myomers (half the contraction?)... but not more than 4x. so 6-10cm through 12-20cm.
We have myomers now; we can reasonably predict that they double in pull power per TL. Current are weak; about 10% of human muscle pull (and 1/10 the contraction distance) for same size. Plus frightfully expensive. So TL A should be about 40% of human muscle, and probably about 40% of the contraction distance. TL B should be about 80%... making augmentation practical by doubling muscle mass... Run the shoulders off the chest and back, and the legs off the abdomen and back frame.
But you can only run so much additional musculature before you inhibit movement, and with myomers, the opposed pairs have to be met in the middle, so the range is, like with human muscles, usually just under half what optimal design could be.
Battledress is, canonically, augmented combat armor. I estimate the TL15 ImpMarBaD to be 3-5cm thick, in various locations, vs the 1-2cm thick shown for combat.
TL 11 BD is probably going to be at least 2x the thickness of myomers (half the contraction?)... but not more than 4x. so 6-10cm through 12-20cm.
We have myomers now; we can reasonably predict that they double in pull power per TL. Current are weak; about 10% of human muscle pull (and 1/10 the contraction distance) for same size. Plus frightfully expensive. So TL A should be about 40% of human muscle, and probably about 40% of the contraction distance. TL B should be about 80%... making augmentation practical by doubling muscle mass... Run the shoulders off the chest and back, and the legs off the abdomen and back frame.
But you can only run so much additional musculature before you inhibit movement, and with myomers, the opposed pairs have to be met in the middle, so the range is, like with human muscles, usually just under half what optimal design could be.
Why use myomers. Electrical linear motors, along with modern high density batteries seem to do OK.
http://www.raytheon.com/broadcast/exoskeleton_hightlights.asx
cuz myomers are cooler and techie?
I just wonder why the mecha thing at all....yeah, you can prone out or use a building wall for cover - but so can a grav tank. So can a tracked or hover tank for that matter. Using cover (called "berm drill" in tanker parlance) so you are hull down when engaging the enemy if possible is standard practice today.
But a mech (not BD - that's infantry as far as I'm concerned) seems like something that is cool looking and all, but really not a great idea in combat. Maybe for some limited urban situations where you might not be expected to encounter real armored resistance; like riot control, security, stuff like that. But let's face it: if you armor a mech to withstand the punishment a fusion gun will dish out (and a tank might survive) the loss of maneuverability, the increase in size and mass, and the wear and stress on the joints is going to be too much.
Now you might be able to get some workaround on those by increasing the size of the mech, but then we are back in Battletech land, not Traveller, and having played that game I constantly found myself wondering "why" when contemplating mechs instead of tanks.
I just wonder why the mecha thing at all....yeah, you can prone out or use a building wall for cover - but so can a grav tank. So can a tracked or hover tank for that matter. Using cover (called "berm drill" in tanker parlance) so you are hull down when engaging the enemy if possible is standard practice today.
But a mech (not BD - that's infantry as far as I'm concerned) seems like something that is cool looking and all, but really not a great idea in combat. Maybe for some limited urban situations where you might not be expected to encounter real armored resistance; like riot control, security, stuff like that. But let's face it: if you armor a mech to withstand the punishment a fusion gun will dish out (and a tank might survive) the loss of maneuverability, the increase in size and mass, and the wear and stress on the joints is going to be too much.
Now you might be able to get some workaround on those by increasing the size of the mech, but then we are back in Battletech land, not Traveller, and having played that game I constantly found myself wondering "why" when contemplating mechs instead of tanks.
ELMs require linear access to point of action. Great along the elbow joint. Lousy for shoulders. Not as easy to armor. (in fact, a weakness with Raytheon's system.)
Myomers can and do work around curves, and function much like muscles, including the smoothness of action of muscles. When augmenting, that looks to be near ideal for integration with human muscle power. Moreover, it makes triggering from the underlying muscles' nerve impulse much more reliable.
Myomers don't make near as much sense for small (3m) walkers; ELMs make a lot of sense for those. But for augmenting humans directly, myomers, once they achieve reasonable levels of force, have multiple advantages.
There will always be giant robots.
You have a point: no matter what scenario I try to think of (that doesn't require hands) a grav vehicle is always going to outperform any kind of mecha you can dream up. Except in one area.
Let's say you've had a really bad day - hell, let's say you just woke up on the wrong side of the bed. But in your garage is a giant, lethal robot under YOUR command, with laser beam eyes, a flamethrower in the mouth, and machine guns for fingers. And you can make it stomp, smash, and destroy.
Sure, a grav tank would be more efficient, even more lethal - but it's not a giant killer robot.
And that is why there will always be giant robot.
You have a point: no matter what scenario I try to think of (that doesn't require hands) a grav vehicle is always going to outperform any kind of mecha you can dream up. Except in one area.
Let's say you've had a really bad day - hell, let's say you just woke up on the wrong side of the bed. But in your garage is a giant, lethal robot under YOUR command, with laser beam eyes, a flamethrower in the mouth, and machine guns for fingers. And you can make it stomp, smash, and destroy.
Sure, a grav tank would be more efficient, even more lethal - but it's not a giant killer robot.
And that is why there will always be giant robot.
Icosahedron
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I agree, large mechas seem pointless, and easily outperformed by grav vehicles. For that matter, even small mechas and BD could be outperformed for most combat purposes by small grav drones. Once a mecha starts to compete with the cavalry, it is quickly proven inferior.
As I see it, BD has one unique purpose - the suit enables an infantryman to do his job better and for longer.
It may be that a larger BD suit, like the Alien loader, might perform this unique function better than standard BD, at least in certain circumstances, in which case it will be a viable option, but there will come a point where the increased size becomes a liability.
Much depends on what you want the suit to do. If you want it to act simply as a gun platform, it's an inefficient design. If you want it to build a field fortification under fire in coordination with other suits, or carry a man through a building in pursuit of another man, then it's probably as efficient as you'll get.
As I see it, BD has one unique purpose - the suit enables an infantryman to do his job better and for longer.
It may be that a larger BD suit, like the Alien loader, might perform this unique function better than standard BD, at least in certain circumstances, in which case it will be a viable option, but there will come a point where the increased size becomes a liability.
Much depends on what you want the suit to do. If you want it to act simply as a gun platform, it's an inefficient design. If you want it to build a field fortification under fire in coordination with other suits, or carry a man through a building in pursuit of another man, then it's probably as efficient as you'll get.
(Deleted the bits I agree with - BD only really has "purpose" in human spaces)
The other thing is that we might be looking at it backwards. The other important consideration is that BD is a powered armoured vac suit - if you need to be wearing a vac suit anyway with the disadvantages that it carries, then BD is the way to go.
If you have troops that operate on multiple planets - with different atmosphere mixes, airborne spores, gravities, not to mention NBC aspects - then you do really want to maximise the effectiveness of your troops by having them isolated from the unfamiliar environment.
CES isn't pressure-rated. (It is sealable, but not rated for a pressure differential.)
Combat armor is.
Battledress is CA with augmentation.
IMTU, all marines on combat duty are issued combat armor, and if qualified, battledress. The AV is just as good, and it's a whole lot cheaper.
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