How long can you live on anagathics ?
- Thread starter CaptRet
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G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
In CT, at least, indefinitely. Or at least as long as you can score a fix.
The catch is that:
The catch is that:
- It is a monthly regimen that must be maintained in order to work,
- Individual doses are hugely expensive -- roughly the equivalent to at least a year's salary for a typical (NPC) Imperial citizen,
- The minimum tech level of a world you'll find any on, barring extraordinary circumstances, is 15,
- Even at that tech level, it's kind of a crap shoot to source (10+ on 2d6 per world), and
- That's assuming it's even legal there to begin with.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
TNE introduces the idea of genetic damage over time, but I could see that as being a side effect of the times. Safe anagathics are a high tech product, and TNE is no longer really high tech.
The implication is that prior editions did not have such worries, so "as long as you can afford it".
The implication is that prior editions did not have such worries, so "as long as you can afford it".
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I am more apt to ask "How long before your ambitious young heirs wait before taking action to get their inheritance?"
Also, how does society deal with a small group that does not die, while the vast majority of the members of the society do die? Somehow, I do not see that as a stable situation.
It's not the ambitious young heirs they need to worry about, it's the law students.
As if the rule against perpetuities wasn't already enough of a clusterthingy...
As if the rule against perpetuities wasn't already enough of a clusterthingy...
Good summations on the rules lawyering part, we could go into specifics as we primitive TL8 types understand (telomere mitigation won't fix eventual bone and tissue damage so probably healing/refreshing tissue tech in there too).
But the real question is, what sort of universe do you want?
Anagathics is a Big Thing in several scifi universes, to an extent with Melange, the movie Jupiter Ascending and of course Stroon in the Cordwainer Smith universe. In all three the extension of life is the Ultimate Commodity and shapes their economies and societies.
So I would say that it is a major element to consider in building your universe, and you should be deciding on the specifics based on the desired gameplay and milieu feel.
Oh, and we discussed this before but I'll bring it up again, what sort of a world is it when George Washington and Queen Victoria are still alive and affecting events now? Incredible people with several skill-10s, or societal stagnation as the best of the past 300 years crowd out new people and ideas, or as suggested revolt against same?
But the real question is, what sort of universe do you want?
Anagathics is a Big Thing in several scifi universes, to an extent with Melange, the movie Jupiter Ascending and of course Stroon in the Cordwainer Smith universe. In all three the extension of life is the Ultimate Commodity and shapes their economies and societies.
So I would say that it is a major element to consider in building your universe, and you should be deciding on the specifics based on the desired gameplay and milieu feel.
Oh, and we discussed this before but I'll bring it up again, what sort of a world is it when George Washington and Queen Victoria are still alive and affecting events now? Incredible people with several skill-10s, or societal stagnation as the best of the past 300 years crowd out new people and ideas, or as suggested revolt against same?
Well, if theoretically one could live forever on anagathics, then there would presumably be nothing short of violent death or accident the would preclude an "immortal" Emperor/Empress. Instead, I would think it likely that there would be some limit at which cells would no longer reproduce themselves correctly (like making a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy, ad infinitum; those telomeres are only so long). We currently have a great increase in nonogenerians in the US, so I'm thinking that anagathics would work to keep one youthful and prolong life to some sort of limit, perhaps 150 or so (with a sudden breakdown into senescence right before the end).
Also, I think that having an aging crisis in Traveller character generation at the 38 yrs. mark is probably too early in a futuristic setting (and was based on acturial and physical information of the 1980's, when Traveller began). With improved science, diet, drugs, etc. probably wouldn't hit the same mark till folks were in their 40's. (Of course, people at the bottom of society and from lower tech environments probably wouldn't benefit from these advances, and would age more in line with the original game mechanics).
Also, I think that having an aging crisis in Traveller character generation at the 38 yrs. mark is probably too early in a futuristic setting (and was based on acturial and physical information of the 1980's, when Traveller began). With improved science, diet, drugs, etc. probably wouldn't hit the same mark till folks were in their 40's. (Of course, people at the bottom of society and from lower tech environments probably wouldn't benefit from these advances, and would age more in line with the original game mechanics).
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
T5 gives us more life extending technologies to play with in the OTU than anagathics.
That said what is written in the majority of Traveller rules must be interpreted for the setting.
If you are filthy rich - megacorp regional director, subsector duke, privately wealthy Scrooge McDuck - you don't need to go looking for anagathics, you send hirelings (PCs cough cough) to source them and bring back what you need to last a decade, century whatever.
That said what is written in the majority of Traveller rules must be interpreted for the setting.
If you are filthy rich - megacorp regional director, subsector duke, privately wealthy Scrooge McDuck - you don't need to go looking for anagathics, you send hirelings (PCs cough cough) to source them and bring back what you need to last a decade, century whatever.
That's the way to do it. Anagathics are plot hooks on a platter.
Even the question of "how long do anagathics work?" is more than one plot hook, because adventures could surround the very question.
Altered Carbon addresses this, as does Eclipse Phase. Once someone can afford immortality, they go on getting richer and more powerful indefinitely. Compound interest for the win. These immortal oligarchs have an immense influence on societies.
So anagathics.
Traveller doesnt explain how they work, only that they do. So arbitrarily pick what fits what you want, and say well it just does.
Rationalizations and narrative justifications.
Something like, wull, anagathics prevent telomere loss, or stimulate mitochondria function, or whatever, but the human body is such a complex system that this has unbalancing side effects to the point where the body cant take it anymore, and people feel tired, go sleep, and pass away for no discernable reason.
Or
200 years of life with toxin buildup, junk food, stress damage, artilage stress, nutrition deficiencies, radiation exposure, statistical cancer risks, diseases, genetic defects expressing themselves, eventually peoples bodies cant take it anymore. Suicide could be another issue, like a noble with dementia wasting away in an asylum, but lingering on for decades.
So anagathics.
Traveller doesnt explain how they work, only that they do. So arbitrarily pick what fits what you want, and say well it just does.
Rationalizations and narrative justifications.
Something like, wull, anagathics prevent telomere loss, or stimulate mitochondria function, or whatever, but the human body is such a complex system that this has unbalancing side effects to the point where the body cant take it anymore, and people feel tired, go sleep, and pass away for no discernable reason.
Or
200 years of life with toxin buildup, junk food, stress damage, artilage stress, nutrition deficiencies, radiation exposure, statistical cancer risks, diseases, genetic defects expressing themselves, eventually peoples bodies cant take it anymore. Suicide could be another issue, like a noble with dementia wasting away in an asylum, but lingering on for decades.
If the anagathics are not illegal, but simply expensive, I don't know why those who would use and afford them would not relocate to where they are readily available.
Sure, there could be smuggling of them to interdicted areas, but that continues to suggest that they're available somewhere. They're not (I assume) being cooked up in bathtubs in an RV out in the desert.
Sure, there could be smuggling of them to interdicted areas, but that continues to suggest that they're available somewhere. They're not (I assume) being cooked up in bathtubs in an RV out in the desert.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
What if anagathics are made the way they are in Jupiter Ascending...
... or as in the Babylon 5 episode, "Deathwalker".
(tangential note: I want to incorporate the Dilgar into an ATU so very much.)
In the Mongoose Traveller, Third Imperium Deneb Sector it notes an Imperial prohibition against nobles using anagathics. It isn't explained, but I'm sure that has to do with the destabilizing effects of such an individual accumulating wealth and power purely via extreme longevity.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I figure that someone using anagathics will live only as long as it takes for an assassin to get to him or her.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
That isn't the first cite, though I don't recall at the moment where that would be. IIRC it has to do with both a stated desire to keep the titles in motion and with a cautionary event early on in the Third Imperium. Those of Noble family are welcome to partake of anagathics as long as they do not also hold an Imperial Office, thus encouraging those who want to use their power to live forever to hand the reins to the next generation and retire.
Anagathics work differently in TNE as does normal aging. There are interesting side-effects :devil:
1,Aging starts in different terms for different stats. AGL at Term 4, STR, END and INT terms 6, 8, and 12 respectvely. Roll d15 (d20, reroll 16-20s, hey i didnt make the rules!) If you roll higher than your stat, no aging! Equal or under, lose 1 point. Thats it. You can have really old people.
2. All anagathics does is keep you from having to make 2 rolls. Sounds Groovy. Ill just rotate which 2 are immune, each term. This is permitted.
HOWEVER :smirk:
after 15 full terms of use you start roll for side effects which include up to and including psychopathic behavior (NPC land!). Since there are cumulative DMs in this roll, even rolling the minimum every single time you become a psychopath after 92 years (23 terms) of use.
You could try Anagath-B (Bearers of the Flame, p 16) which does not have those side effects, but has a different one. Every time you experience entering jump-space roll a D100. If you roll less than or equal to the years you have taken it, you immediately die.
Hmm. So you can live hard. die young, and leave a beautiful corpse
:coffeesip:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Thanks GypsyComet - there may be earlier citations (was the first I could find). Actually, reread the citation and it is an "Imperial custom" vice a law. That said, it certainly makes good sense to ensure that the Imperium power structure doesn't ossify (or lead to violent coups).
What if all the peacefully replaced emperors are still alive, and only decided to abdicate after a certain time, living in cognito on some distant moon?
Nothing speaks against people taking anagathics forever, and hence living forever. Moreover, real-life biology is beginning to reveal that it may actually be relatively easy to rejuvenate people - we proto-Solomani haven't quite figured it out yet, but we seem to be close.
That implies that immortal oligarchs (or in the OTU, nobles) should be expected to run everything, unless firm legal limitations against that are in place. But why would they, when the state is a feudal oligarchy anyway?
Nothing speaks against people taking anagathics forever, and hence living forever. Moreover, real-life biology is beginning to reveal that it may actually be relatively easy to rejuvenate people - we proto-Solomani haven't quite figured it out yet, but we seem to be close.
That implies that immortal oligarchs (or in the OTU, nobles) should be expected to run everything, unless firm legal limitations against that are in place. But why would they, when the state is a feudal oligarchy anyway?
