How long can you live on anagathics ?

[kilemall]

Nope, it's not a variant because the box I kill you in has windows and monitors your life signs as it copies your memories and personality

Pfft, changed the parameters of the Gedanken. The point of the visualization, at least originally, is that you didn't know cat/clone state or perhaps more accurately CAUSE cat/clone state UNTIL you open the box.


Not you know state prior to opening box and are controlling it at each step!


But then again, Einstein did tell us that God does not roll dice.

 

[mike wightman]

Could be handy if you believe in a hands-on sort of personal command structure.


Clone Dictatorship, same clone and updated wafers for every planet?

I think the Imperium already practices this sort of.

Every subsector duke is represented at court by a trusted underling or/and a 'pseudoreality holographic avatar'. What is this avatar if not a memory/personality copy being run on a computer and projected as a hologram.

 

[Condottiere]

Like I mentioned before, it depends on what consciousness is, if it can be transferred and/or split.

On the surface level, if the clone is convinced it's the original, if it reacts to the universe exactly how the original does, and if the universe reacts to the clone how it would to the original.

Cats, as we know, are highly individualistic, though they appear to operate from the same mindset.

 

[mike wightman]

Consciousness transfer - the unique quantum pattern stored in your brain (which can not be copied exactly as this violates quantum mechanics) - would require the invocation of psionics

 

[BwapTED]

I think the Imperium already practices this sort of.

Every subsector duke is represented at court by a trusted underling or/and a 'pseudoreality holographic avatar'. What is this avatar if not a memory/personality copy being run on a computer and projected as a hologram.

At some point the avatars take over and you have immortal AI ghosts ruling over gazillions of sophonts.

Immortal...
That raises a question. What happens to the psychology of an AI ghost/wafer personality that far outlives the normal human span? This obviously requires an alteration, if the AI is a full virtual simulation of the original's living human body, including the brain.
(Is it? Or is it 'just' an info morph programmed with simulated memories and emotions?)
How long does such an AI run before it starts to get weird?

And, more on the topic of the thread, what about the psychology of 'Methusalah' anagathics users? If they can live a very, very long time, do they grow detached from most of humanity? Insane? Enlightened? Senile?

Does early use of anagathics (something like the Prolong treatments mentioned above) sometimes lead to arrested development?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

You are a meat robot.

There's no way to discuss these questions of being, personhood, identity, consciousness, etc. without going into metaphysics. It's not 'woo.'
Magnus, you are also taking a philosophical position on what a person is, what consciousness is, etc. That involves metaphysics as much as the contrary position does.

RE why not just use wafers and clones, there's the answer: in the OTU, as in the real world (or this forum) people are not all of one mind about metaphysical questions.

No, I am coming from the materialist view, you are the meat, nothing more. Consciousness is merely an artifact of the brain's complexity. Your memories and experiences are just information so of course they can be copied. No metaphysics needed. We're all just really meat robots running whatever behavioral programs we got installed by parents/society modified by experience.

A couple of comments

If a person's mind is copied to a wafer or some other medium, its a copy. Its not the original person, its a simulacrum of the original person. Like somehow creating a twin of oneself, the twin, even though identical, isnt the original person.

Consider this. A character is married. Then one day he discovers indisputable proof that for the last two months, his wife has been replaced by her delusional twin sister, who somehow has all his wife's memories. The twin sister is exactly the same, but shes not her sister. He never put a ring on her finger, he never asked her to marry him, she's not the mother of his children, she wasnt there through the good times and bad times of their relationship. She is a copy that thinks shes his wife.

If he doesnt care he can accept the copy as his wife, but shes still not the woman he married.

With cloning or mind copying wafer tech, it only gets worse. The twin sister is now a clone who didnt exist until two months ago when she was decanted in a lab.

The first person is the original. All others are copies. Some will be copies of copies. Their bodies will not be exact copies. Their teeth will be new instead if riddled with fillings. Theyll still have their tonsils. They will have faces according to the originals dna, instead of the wreck of a face that the original had punched in in a startown barfight. They wont have diabetes from drinking all that Basic, a single cup of which can sustain a space crewman for a day. Theyll all have soft youthful skin and no calluses. They wont have all those stupid tattoos either.

A copy is not the continuation of the originals existence. It is a new personality that is,a copy of the original like copying your road trip music to a new memory card.

Well that depends on what level of service you purchase. The high level stuff makes sure those scars, tats, and such are copied too. Unless it is with the intent to get a nice fresh body. Hell, given the chance that's my choice, genefixed and new body. It'd be like going in hospital and coming out with even better outcome than usual. (Also Basic doesn't give one diabetes, it tastes like crap but it doesn't cause problems I know I have been on it; Ensure for the win.) And so what is different about the music on the memory card versus the copy on the hard drive? Answer: none. Works the same way for people. So, yeah the clone is still his wife. I think you put too much stock in bodies which of course I don't, but the body isn't you, your memories are, your experiences are, who you are is merely those memories and experiences driving your current resposes. You are data.

Consciousness transfer - the unique quantum pattern stored in your brain (which can not be copied exactly as this violates quantum mechanics) - would require the invocation of psionics

Where's this quantum coming from? There's no quantum, there's just information. What this sounds like is people wanting to think they're special and irreplaceable but you're not. You're just a collection of experiences in a meat conveyence. And that can be replicated no problems, once the tech is there.

Look, I know all you singletons wanna believe your unique and special but us folks with copies or who are copies don't have your hangups, life already told us we're not unique. Kinda feel sorry for you, trapped in your egotistical need to not be a thing that can replicated.

Still, I got to say thanks for the argument because I am starting to understand minorities better as I suddenly find myself one. A clone's life is not that of the singleton and boy does this thread show that.

Oh and back to the OP, well on just the medication several hundreds years, with DNA/RNA and telamere fixing and reset...forever? Immortality and psychohistory helps build a better universe. It's how my empire stays stable, the rulers live long enough to stop certain patterns from arising and guide the empire toward better paths.

 

[BwapTED]

You are still getting into metaphsyics.

http://phi100.weebly.com/metaphysics-of-materialism.html

 

[mike wightman]

No, I am coming from the materialist view, you are the meat, nothing more. Consciousness is merely an artifact of the brain's complexity. Your memories and experiences are just information so of course they can be copied. No metaphysics needed. We're all just really meat robots running whatever behavioral programs we got installed by parents/society modified by experience.

Correct, and when you are dead you are dead, making a copy of your memory patterns doesn't preserve you as you are dead.

I think you put too much stock in bodies which of course I don't, but the body isn't you, your memories are, your experiences are, who you are is merely those memories and experiences driving your current resposes. You are data.

Nope. You are the pattern of data stored by a neural network that involves quantum scale interactions which can not be exactly duplicated. If I make a copy it can not be an exact copy, and this is why you are dead, even if copies survive.

Where's this quantum coming from? There's no quantum, there's just information. What this sounds like is people wanting to think they're special and irreplaceable but you're not. You're just a collection of experiences in a meat conveyence. And that can be replicated no problems, once the tech is there.

I do not have the time to explain quantum physics or biology. To make a copy of your memories I would have to make an exact copy down to the atomic level of the structures of your brain. Quantum mechanics forbids exact copying of such data - so your entity is data argument is actually proving the point that a copy can not have all the parameters of the original and therefore is a different entity.

Look, I know all you singletons wanna believe your unique and special but us folks with copies or who are copies don't have your hangups, life already told us we're not unique. Kinda feel sorry for you, trapped in your egotistical need to not be a thing that can replicated.

And I know your dogmatic faith in the sanctity of copied data gives you the misguided belief there is continuousness of existence, but the laws of physics preclude it.

Still, I got to say thanks for the argument because I am starting to understand minorities better as I suddenly find myself one. A clone's life is not that of the singleton and boy does this thread show that.

Yup, have to say it is quite a fun discussion
Every clone is a unique being after all...

Oh and back to the OP, well on just the medication several hundreds years, with DNA/RNA and telamere fixing and reset...forever? Immortality and psychohistory helps build a better universe. It's how my empire stays stable, the rulers live long enough to stop certain patterns from arising and guide the empire toward better paths.

Do you have a secret (or not so secret) group of immortals in your setting then?
And can the pcs join the club...
or bring it down...
or do its bidding...
interesting adventure hooks right through this thread

 

[vegas]

No, I am coming from the materialist view,... No metaphysics needed.

Materialism is a metaphysical position. You have assumed the metaphysics that your opinion requires.

Mike is accepting your materialist presupposition, and suggesting that physics says a copy of a person is a different copy and not in the identity relationship with the original, no matter how perfect you make the copy (due to the limits of accuracy.)

Of course, what exactly the "identity relationship" entails is a metaphysical question too. So this topic is shot through with metaphysics.

 

[BwapTED]

And then we add in psionics...


:CoW::CoW::CoW:

:coffeegulp:

 

[CaptRet]

So rather than a medic administering these life-prolonging measures, you would need a metaphysician ?

 

[vegas]

@CaptRet, +1!

Of course the problem with relying on metaphysicians is to be found in the first law of philosophy: for every philosopher, there exists an equal and opposite philosopher.

 

[CaptRet]

@CaptRet, +1!

Of course the problem with relying on metaphysicians is to be found in the first law of philosophy: for every philosopher, there exists an equal and opposite philosopher.

Or you could go with an economist. Old joke: two men are stuck on a desert Island with a can of beans and no way to open it. One of the men is an economist, his response to the predicament, "(f)irst, presume a can opener."

 

[BackworldTraveller]

If you want to see the longer term effects of an never dying population who need to look for a regular source of anagathics, I'd recommend Mary Shelly's novel!

 

[BRover]

If the supposed "copy" has all my memories and experiences then there is literally no difference and it is me. Yeesh, you people it's like you never faced the possibility that you're a clone. Must be nice. Some of us though have to face such things and after a while you realize how silly it is to wonder if you're the "real" one or the "copy". You're just you.

No it isn't. You are dead.

What if I copy your memories and personality via Wafer technology without killing you. I then download the copy to a cloned body.
Wake both in separate rooms.
Which one is you?

Once upon a time, long ago in the misty depths of time ('70s? '80s?) I read a novella or so about a rich fellow who lived large, and every decade or so, when his overweight and abused body was starting to show the effects of the high life, he'd check into a clone-transfer center, have his consciousness transferred into a younger, fit clone, and go back to the good life.

Only, in the second paragraph of the story, he woke up after one such session, still fat, but also broke and without social standing. You see, the story was about what happened to the cast-off body--and the struggle to recover his health, make a living as a (literal) nobody and so on. Knowing that his rich self had no thought for those cast-offs, which he'd been creating so regularly.

 

[BRover]

Or you could go with an economist. Old joke: two men are stuck on a desert Island with a can of beans and no way to open it. One of the men is an economist, his response to the predicament, "(f)irst, presume a can opener."

Happened to a mathematician. He developed a theory to topologically invert the can and gain access to the beans. Rescuers arrived to find the island empty except for the can of beans, which was dancing around. When they opened it, the mathematician popped out, and cursed, "Damn sign error!" :rofl:

 

[kilemall]

All these clone issues arise with Star Trek transporters, unless you can guarantee that quantum state is a perfect replica at the moment of disintegration.


Arguably though your quantum state is altering ALL THE TIME, so the argument would likely be moot to sophonts actually using the tech. You're going to be different 30s from now, you're just starting from a slightly different starting point.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Because I do dabble in necromancy now and again.

You are still getting into metaphsyics.

http://phi100.weebly.com/metaphysics-of-materialism.html

It's a fair cop. Been watching a lot of Philosophy Tube and she has shown me that the art does have some value, so yeah I'm busted.

Correct, and when you are dead you are dead, making a copy of your memory patterns doesn't preserve you as you are dead.

Nope. You are the pattern of data stored by a neural network that involves quantum scale interactions which can not be exactly duplicated. If I make a copy it can not be an exact copy, and this is why you are dead, even if copies survive.

I do not have the time to explain quantum physics or biology. To make a copy of your memories I would have to make an exact copy down to the atomic level of the structures of your brain. Quantum mechanics forbids exact copying of such data - so your entity is data argument is actually proving the point that a copy can not have all the parameters of the original and therefore is a different entity.

And I know your dogmatic faith in the sanctity of copied data gives you the misguided belief there is continuousness of existence, but the laws of physics preclude it.

Yup, have to say it is quite a fun discussion
Every clone is a unique being after all...

Here's the thing, first off this is only for a game I totes get in real life dead is dead, fade to black and no coming back. I mean it is a cool idea but the TL required to pull it off is a bit outside our abilities right now.

That said, I also take into account that my own memories aren't perfect either and that I forget stuff and lose memories so *shrug* in the end if there is a gap well that is going to happen copy or not. As long as most of it and the important parts are there I'm still me, because again I am merely data in a meat suit. A broken, faulty meat suit. So, if I wake up in a newer meat suit and remember all those important things I want to remember always then what's the big deal?

Do you have a secret (or not so secret) group of immortals in your setting then?

Maybe, I mean if I tell you then it wouldn't be secret now would it. Also, the Immortals aren't hiding in the shadows or something, it's usually the nobility and the famous and such.

And can the pcs join the club...

So yes, PC can earn a place among the exceeding long lived, but if you think it's hard to become a Life Member of TAS...

or bring it down...

Well, that would be treason, but players are gonna play.

or do its bidding...

You already do, Citizen. And The Emperor thanks you. :coffeesip:

interesting adventure hooks right through this thread

Indeed!

And then we add in psionics...


:CoW::CoW::CoW:

:coffeegulp:

Ah, yes, psionics. Yes, they do transfer, or rather the skills and knowledge of them transfer and if you had them and are cloned then yeah, you still do. Because I've other ways of messing with you, playa. :devil:

 

[NatureDruid]

It's a fair cop. Been watching a lot of Philosophy Tube and she has shown me that the art does have some value, so yeah I'm busted.

Here's the thing, first off this is only for a game I totes get in real life dead is dead, fade to black and no coming back. I mean it is a cool idea but the TL required to pull it off is a bit outside our abilities right now.

That said, I also take into account that my own memories aren't perfect either and that I forget stuff and lose memories so *shrug* in the end if there is a gap well that is going to happen copy or not. As long as most of it and the important parts are there I'm still me, because again I am merely data in a meat suit. A broken, faulty meat suit. So, if I wake up in a newer meat suit and remember all those important things I want to remember always then what's the big deal?

Maybe, I mean if I tell you then it wouldn't be secret now would it. Also, the Immortals aren't hiding in the shadows or something, it's usually the nobility and the famous and such.
So yes, PC can earn a place among the exceeding long lived, but if you think it's hard to become a Life Member of TAS...
Well, that would be treason, but players are gonna play.

You already do, Citizen. And The Emperor thanks you. :coffeesip:
Indeed!

Ah, yes, psionics. Yes, they do transfer, or rather the skills and knowledge of them transfer and if you had them and are cloned then yeah, you still do. Because I've other ways of messing with you, playa. :devil:

It's difficult to discern if the population is accepting of the situation or unwilling to take action, based upon what you've said. Your last point does make one wonder what characteristics are to be retained (or acquired) by the would-be immortal, though. Such psychic skills are after all of limited utility without a good Psi score, to say nothing of the other characteristics.