How long can you live on anagathics ?

[kilemall]

Why bother with expensive anagathics when wafertech and cloning, ala Altered Carbon?
Which series BTW gives you a good idea as to what an anagathic oligarchy looks like.


I liked the 2300 Equipment Guide take on anagathics, which was a treatment with months long duration.

For one 85000 Livre treatment, you would age 1D-1 months over an effective treatment period of 2D-1 months. So on average you would age 3-4 months over a 6 month period. Or you could get lucky and not age at all, or minimally age 1-2 months over 11 months. OR the treatment does no good because it doesn't slow down aging, or causes you to age faster!

Trick was that those aging/1D-1 and effective period/2D-1 rolls were PERMANENT per character. So once you knew what your ratio was like, you could decide whether to keep it up or whether it wasn't worth it.


Kind of fun mechanic if you go hardcore in CT or other forms of Traveller, could be players would want to not rack up terms and risk having to start anagathics in their 40s. That 22/28 year old 1-2 term 'underpowered character' might look better if they can start on their long life span while not having aged out.

 

[mike wightman]

Because the clone isn't you...

it's a copy that thinks it is you, but you are dead.

With anagathics or other rejuvenation treatment you get continuation of existence.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Grrrrrr.

Because the clone isn't you...

it's a copy that thinks it is you, but you are dead.

With anagathics or other rejuvenation treatment you get continuation of existence.

If the supposed "copy" has all my memories and experiences then there is literally no difference and it is me. Yeesh, you people it's like you never faced the possibility that you're a clone. Must be nice. Some of us though have to face such things and after a while you realize how silly it is to wonder if you're the "real" one or the "copy". You're just you.

 

[Grav_Moped]

But then you have to wonder how many other people might also be you. (Or were you up to a specific point in time but are slightly different by now.)

 

[mike wightman]

If the supposed "copy" has all my memories and experiences then there is literally no difference and it is me.

No it isn't. You are dead.

What if I copy your memories and personality via Wafer technology without killing you. I then download the copy to a cloned body.
Wake both in separate rooms.
Which one is you?

 

[coliver988]

No it isn't. You are dead.

What if I copy your memories and personality via Wafer technology without killing you. I then download the copy to a cloned body.
Wake both in separate rooms.
Which one is you?

Pretty much - while the next you thinks it is a simple continuation, the original is now gone.

But then we can start digging into philosophy: is the you that went to sleep the same you as the one that wakes up? After all, there is a period where your consciousness is no longer active. And we do replace our cells over a few years so physically for the most part we become an entirely new person. The old "it's my grandfather's axe. The handle has been replaced a couple of times and we put a new head on it but its the same axe".

As far as the next being in line is, yes, you are the same. And to anyone else, there would be no difference. But from the personal perspective of the original, no, it is just a perfect copy.

And if we start poking into religious aspects and the soul, that discussion can get both very interesting and very divisive.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Ya poor noobs.

But then you have to wonder how many other people might also be you. (Or were you up to a specific point in time but are slightly different by now.)

No, well not once you get over the shock that there are other versions of you. Honestly, you just stop caring after a little bit. i mean really why should I care?

No it isn't. You are dead.

What if I copy your memories and personality via Wafer technology without killing you. I then download the copy to a cloned body.
Wake both in separate rooms.
Which one is you?

No, still alive that's what bodily functions are for, keeping the meat going.

Both of us, though we'll begin to have separate memories as so as you do wake us up. Both yeah, they're both me.

Again, same memories same person. It's simple really, I don't get you people.

 

[mike wightman]

Nope - they are not both you.

You only have the continuity of existence in the original you.

The copy wakes with memories and personality but begins continuity of existence from the moment it has awoken.

This is the real horror of Eclipse Phase IMHO, the slow realisation that the digital copy isn't really 'you'.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Whaaa...whaat?!

Nope - they are not both you.

You only have the continuity of existence in the original you.

The copy wakes with memories and personality but begins continuity of existence from the moment it has awoken.

This is the real horror of Eclipse Phase IMHO, the slow realisation that the digital copy isn't really 'you'.

You care to break that down it small words and perhaps a better explanation of what you mean because from where I sit sounds like some silly metaphysical woo.

 

[BwapTED]

There's no way to discuss these questions of being, personhood, identity, consciousness, etc. without going into metaphysics. It's not 'woo.'
Magnus, you are also taking a philosophical position on what a person is, what consciousness is, etc. That involves metaphysics as much as the contrary position does.

RE why not just use wafers and clones, there's the answer: in the OTU, as in the real world (or this forum) people are not all of one mind about metaphysical questions.

 

[whartung]

There's no way to discuss these questions of being, personhood, identity, consciousness, etc. without going into metaphysics. It's not 'woo.'
Magnus, you are also taking a philosophical position on what a person is, what consciousness is, etc. That involves metaphysics as much as the contrary position does.

Well, here's the "Turing Test".

Let's say you go to the cloning center and are told that "for this procedure, you will be put to sleep, and then you will be moved to a new residence (new state, country, planet...), where you wake up, and you will be given a new identity. This it to protect both you and the clone."

Simply, not only are you cloning, but you're going in to, essentially, witness protection.

In reality, the original is copied, and moved to another city and the copy is moved to a completely different city.

Then, both wake up.

So, which "you" is "you"? You can't "know" you're the clone since you have same back experience and experience moving forward (essentially a new identity in a strange place). And the original you is in the same circumstances. New identity, new place.

In fact, you don't even know if the cloning worked at all! or, if it did, how many.

So, I'll just let y'all put a pinch of that between your cheek and gum and work the "you"s out of it.

 

[BwapTED]

And thus you have come right back to metaphysics. It's inescapable with this topic.

I don't think that's a bad thing!
Quite the contrary. Good sci fi may pose tricky questions and spur its readers to think about such things. It doesn't necessarily have to offer a definite answer.

Here are a couple of short stories I like that deal with something similar to 'digital ghosts.'
:

Spoiler:

The Winter Market

by William Gibson


Pretty Boy Crossover

by Pat Cadigan

For game purposes, I'd say the most immediately important question isn't metaphysical so much as meta-game.
Does the player of a PC who undergoes a digital psyche copying/creation procedure get to play one clone/wafer? Multiple? None?
Does he have to retire his original character? Is the PC killed by the copying process?

 

[mike wightman]

I put you in a box and kill you - that I have copied your personality and memories does not matter to you, you have ceased to be.

The copying process can not produce an exact facsimile of you - quantum mechanics forbids it...

 

[Tiikeri]

A couple of comments

If a person's mind is copied to a wafer or some other medium, its a copy. Its not the original person, its a simulacrum of the original person. Like somehow creating a twin of oneself, the twin, even though identical, isnt the original person.

Consider this. A character is married. Then one day he discovers indisputable proof that for the last two months, his wife has been replaced by her delusional twin sister, who somehow has all his wife's memories. The twin sister is exactly the same, but shes not her sister. He never put a ring on her finger, he never asked her to marry him, she's not the mother of his children, she wasnt there through the good times and bad times of their relationship. She is a copy that thinks shes his wife.

If he doesnt care he can accept the copy as his wife, but shes still not the woman he married.

With cloning or mind copying wafer tech, it only gets worse. The twin sister is now a clone who didnt exist until two months ago when she was decanted in a lab.

The first person is the original. All others are copies. Some will be copies of copies. Their bodies will not be exact copies. Their teeth will be new instead if riddled with fillings. Theyll still have their tonsils. They will have faces according to the originals dna, instead of the wreck of a face that the original had punched in in a startown barfight. They wont have diabetes from drinking all that Basic, a single cup of which can sustain a space crewman for a day. Theyll all have soft youthful skin and no calluses. They wont have all those stupid tattoos either.

A copy is not the continuation of the originals existence. It is a new personality that is,a copy of the original like copying your road trip music to a new memory card.

 

[BwapTED]

FWIW, I'm in agreement about the copy/clone/wafer not being the same entity as the original person.

Philosophy…


:coffeesip:

 

[kilemall]

I put you in a box and kill you - that I have copied your personality and memories does not matter to you. you have ceased to be.

The copying process can not produce an exact facsimile of you - quantum mechanics forbids it...

Quite the variant on Schrodinger's Cat isn't?


Is the cat Alive? Dead? Dead and new clone Alive? Original or memorex?

 

[BwapTED]

If all copies/clones are really the same person, then they will share memories and experiences. That means FTL communications! What one learns or senses, all will learn or sense. Instantly, I suppose, or else they can't really remain one 'I.'
The overlapping simultaneous sensory feeds and conflicting memories of the shared consciousness would render them pretty much useless for anything much beyond being strapped into a safety berth and pumped for information like brain-damaged oracles.

I wouldn't use this variant for the wafers, if I understand that tech correctly (I don't own T5).

It might exist at super-high TLs in a psionic civilization. Clarke's Third Law.

But I have contributed to a digression from anagathics.

Oops.

 

[mike wightman]

Quite the variant on Schrodinger's Cat isn't?


Is the cat Alive? Dead? Dead and new clone Alive? Original or memorex?

Nope, it's not a variant because the box I kill you in has windows and monitors your life signs as it copies your memories and personality

 

[Tiikeri]

And thus you have come right back to metaphysics. It's inescapable with this topic.

I don't think that's a bad thing!
Quite the contrary. Good sci fi may pose tricky questions and spur its readers to think about such things. It doesn't necessarily have to offer a definite answer.

Here are a couple of short stories I like that deal with something similar to 'digital ghosts.'
:

Spoiler:

The Winter Market

by William Gibson


Pretty Boy Crossover

by Pat Cadigan

For game purposes, I'd say the most immediately important question isn't metaphysical so much as meta-game.
Does the player of a PC who undergoes a digital psyche copying/creation procedure get to play one clone/wafer? Multiple? None?
Does he have to retire his original character? Is the PC killed by the copying process?

It depends on what the gm will allow, what is possible in the setting, and how the copy of the character came about. In eclipse phase people routinely make copies of themselves if they have the money. Eclipse phase is a good game and the pdfs are free.

 

[kilemall]

If all copies/clones are really the same person, then they will share memories and experiences. That means FTL communications! What one learns or senses, all will learn or sense. Instantly, I suppose, or else they can't really remain one 'I.'
The overlapping simultaneous sensory feeds and conflicting memories of the shared consciousness would render them pretty much useless for anything much beyond being strapped into a safety berth and pumped for information like brain-damaged oracles.

I wouldn't use this variant for the wafers, if I understand that tech correctly (I don't own T5).

It might exist at super-high TLs in a psionic civilization. Clarke's Third Law.

But I have contributed to a digression from anagathics.

Oops.

Could be handy if you believe in a hands-on sort of personal command structure.


Clone Dictatorship, same clone and updated wafers for every planet?