How many skills should Traveller use?

[Fritz_Brown]

atpollard, a Mark19 is slightly different from a Mk203 under-barrel grenade launcher. (Though it has some of the same limitations.) Of course, it's also under a different skill in my homebrew (Support Combat) than Rifle. Shooting a shotgun is different from a rifle is different from a BAR is different from a pistol is different from a laser weapon (of any kind).

Prospero, you're right: Sailing includes knot-tying. So does Survival. So does TL-3 Engineering. Of course, lashing a watch tower together might entail different knots from a TL-9 sailboat... :smirk:

 

[atpollard]

atpollard, a Mark19 is slightly different from a Mk203 under-barrel grenade launcher. (Though it has some of the same limitations.) Of course, it's also under a different skill in my homebrew (Support Combat) than Rifle. Shooting a shotgun is different from a rifle is different from a BAR is different from a pistol is different from a laser weapon (of any kind).

With all due respect, how different can shooting shotgun be from shooting a bolt action rifle be from shooting a semi-automatic rifle from shooting a laser rifle? You point the weapon, aim with the sight, and pull the trigger without shifting your aim. It might take an hour to get a feel for the new sights and familiarity with the safety and action, but I cannot believe that after mastering one of the weapons, it would require years of practice to learn to use one of the others.

(Pistols/revolvers and fully automatic weapons are fired different from rifles/shotguns - I grant that point.)

The consequence of micro-managing skills such that a Colt 1911 Autopistol requires a distinct skill from a Walther PPK Body Pistol, is that characters will need to learn 'a skill a month' from a ponderous number of narrowly defined skills. That is closer to the D20 game mechanic with all of the skills and feats than the CT/MT game mechanic. Some people like that level of precision, but I just find it tedious.

 

[robject]

With all due respect, how different can shooting shotgun be from shooting a bolt action rifle be from shooting a semi-automatic rifle from shooting a laser rifle? You point the weapon, aim with the sight, and pull the trigger without shifting your aim. It might take an hour to get a feel for the new sights and familiarity with the safety and action, but I cannot believe that after mastering one of the weapons, it would require years of practice to learn to use one of the others.

(Pistols/revolvers and fully automatic weapons are fired different from rifles/shotguns - I grant that point.)

The consequence of micro-managing skills such that a Colt 1911 Autopistol requires a distinct skill from a Walther PPK Body Pistol, is that characters will need to learn 'a skill a month' from a ponderous number of narrowly defined skills. That is closer to the D20 game mechanic with all of the skills and feats than the CT/MT game mechanic. Some people like that level of precision, but I just find it tedious.

Perhaps more importantly than micromanagement is how micromanagement is managed, so to speak. Task mechanics certainly don't care how 'micro' a skill is, but every player does. So skill receipts ought to be general enough, yet allow specialization where it makes sense?

 

[Takei]

Perhaps more importantly than micromanagement is how micromanagement is managed, so to speak. Task mechanics certainly don't care how 'micro' a skill is, but every player does. So skill receipts ought to be general enough, yet allow specialization where it makes sense?

And that's the tricky part; one player's idea of just right is another's far too detailed.

I used to like the idea of lasers being a seperate skill but am now wondering how long it would take a skilled rifleman to adjust to using a laser rifle instead of an assault rifle? Probably not long enough to justify a seperate skill.

How about firing bursts or full-auto from an assault rifle? Would it take the rifleman long enough to adjust to those modes of fire to justify a seperate skill? I'm starting to believe not.

 

[Tobias]

I'd say ~50 skills would be a good selection. As for the level of detail, here's an example as to how I'd divide up personal combat skills:
Handgun
Rifleman
Heavy Weapons
Brawling
Fencing
Throwing
Archery

We should also have free-to-define "Profession", "Hobby" and "Science" skills. No use in trying to cover every possible scientific field or occupation in the skill list...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

With all due respect, how different can shooting shotgun be from shooting a bolt action rifle be from shooting a semi-automatic rifle from shooting a laser rifle? You point the weapon, aim with the sight, and pull the trigger without shifting your aim. It might take an hour to get a feel for the new sights and familiarity with the safety and action, but I cannot believe that after mastering one of the weapons, it would require years of practice to learn to use one of the others.

Well, I will disagree with the shotgun v rifle bit. They are different techniques. But, of course, any argument over the granularity of these skills discounts the concept of similar skills. It has always been the case that similar skills grant some ability cross-skill.

The consequence of micro-managing skills such that a Colt 1911 Autopistol requires a distinct skill from a Walther PPK Body Pistol,

I have always thought that was dumb.

 

[aramis]

Having fired both the PPK and the 1911, and the CZ50... each is a different beast. Not enough to justify any more than a -1, and that only until one's put a few dozen rounds through it.

I can't see it that detailed, but I can see having a specialization per level, which grants a very narrow specialization on Pistol.

 

[Ron]

Perhaps my opinion is minority here but I always viewed Traveller as a simple rules set with endless possibilities. I would go for 25 skills, as I think is better to be wrong being too simple than it is to be wrong being too complex.

P.S.: Always ruled science or any knowledge based area as been indexed by EDU. Far easy to go and less skills to be taken care.

 

[pendragonman]

Perhaps my opinion is minority here but I always viewed Traveller as a simple rules set with endless possibilities. I would go for 25 skills, as I think is better to be wrong being too simple than it is to be wrong being too complex.

P.S.: Always ruled science or any knowledge based area as been indexed by EDU. Far easy to go and less skills to be taken care.

Agreed. The beauty if the CT system I have always found is that the rules are very open to interpretation and not bound to "the letter of the rule (skill) and not the intent of the rule (skill)". If we have a very large skill set available then the general feeling by players will be that they cannot even attempt an action for which they don't have the exact skill. This is not what I want of my players. I want them to know that the skills are bonuses to accomplish something, not a barrier to them trying.

After all, how many of you out there at one point had no experience or skill at changing your car tire, but managed to do it anyway. Or never shot a gun before, but did it anyway, or ...

 

[Pickles]

Skill lists, like Japanese gardens, are complete when there is nothing more which can be taken away ...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Yes, Bromgrev, I'm weeding out skills and combining into cascades others in my house chargen for just that reason. Its amazing how many skills you can dump (that might otherwise be marginally useful/playable) when you introduce a Mundane skill and an Esoteric skill.

 

[Pickles]

There are many good things about GURPS, but their vast skill list has, IMHO, never been one of them. Too many skills invariably leads to players saying, "What? I don't have a skill for that. Let's just blast 'em!"

It's quite easy, especially with Traveller's generally low skill levels, to keep players from becoming superhuman even if your skill descriptions cover a lot of applications. I don't think my games have ever lost out from haing just one "Computer" skill, for example.

 

[Merxiless]

I've always been a fan of lengthy, descriptive skills lists, and subskills, even if the players won't ever use all of those skills...I use them for NPC's.

When ICE's Spacemaster came out, it was a godsend to me.

Looking at something like Unisystem, and subset of it Armageddon, Con X 2.0, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I can't stand a chearacter that has all sorts of generic skills, "Get medieval" for all hand to hand, or "Gun Fu" for all combat, for example.

With a system that has narrowly defined skills, I always provide NPCs for the story, to accomplish those things, with the PC in leadership positions.

I hope Mongoose does a good job. If not, I will always have my older editions, because in the end, it's more the story than the specific system, I think, unless the system itself does not lend credence to the specific background / setting.

Someone else here said it. "Base mechanics on play, and play on mechanics."

D6 SW was better for me than using Traveller to do Star Wars. And is still better than d20 Star Wars.

Classic and T4 work better for me, than 2300 did.

Obviously system itself is a very diverse discussion, because one guy's GURPS fondness for detail is another person's headache.

And I know people that still play and love Tunnels & Trolls.

Plusses for Mongoose: They certainly know how to do slick work. But something generic, to fit all Sci fi, I think has been done, with GURPS, D6, Alternity, and d20 Modern/Future.

And as far as that goes, from where i sit, GURPS traveller revitalized, and gave new energy to Traveller, as did T20, (though I don't play it).

Will this new enthusiasm for Traveller among the non-grogs convert over to Mongoose, riding the wave to shore?

My prediction is that it'll sell, but in the end, won't feel like "Traveller" to the old school as much as CT / MT. Reinventing itself, the way GURPS:Traveller more or less seemed to will be a good thing, for the new generation, but in the end, I think that the more dedicated CT grognards will seek out the grail from the font himself, Marc's T5, or keep playing CT, as they have everything for it, already.

Just some thoughts.