How Roman is your Third Imperium?

[gloriousbattle]

IMTU, it is about as Roman as it gets. The Imperial Moot is the Senate, and Senators wear togas. In the military, the Imperial Roman salute is given

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y12oxrh5sv4

and I even do chariot races (pod races, but very Roman looking) with a variant on these rules.

http://dungeonsanddragonschariotracing.webs.com/

I think its almost impossible to run the Third Imperium without at least a nod to the Romans. What about you?

 

[aramis]

Mine, not at all.

The moot is akin not to the Roman Senate, but the Greek Agora or the Soviet Council of People's Deputies; it elects the Ruler, and is then able only to do what he tells them.

Canon describes the moot with 2 and only 2 powers: to elect/confirm the emperor, and to disolve the imperium; the Roman Senate continuously was the legislative body throughout even the ceasaro-imperial Roman era.

I've always seen the court as wearing more 19th C type garments; standing collars, buttons to the collar even on jackets; no ties, tho. Think USMC dress blue and USN dress white uniforms, or the Babylon 5 uniforms; but by civilians, often worn unbuttoned over a similar shirt. (B5 in fact matched my then extant view of the OTU uniform ethic quite nicely.)

 

[jatay3]

I disagree. The Imperium and Rome are similar, mainly because both are Empires.
Other then that the differences pile up. The Imperium was founded by a people with a mercantile ethos, Rome by people with an agricultural one. Rome has a militaristic mindset, the Imperium has more of navalistic mindset. The Imperium is deliberately decentralized, Rome never was.

The Third Imperium has more similarities to the British Empire then the Roman Empire.

 

[vitalis6969]

Mine tends to be more of the Dune variety with the Emperor on his throne and all the various noble houses of the sector and subsector grants. Dress and uniform for Nobles tends to be of the Napoleonic through SpanAm war feel when at important state functions or work, again, like 1984 Dune. On holiday it tends to be very high end glitz feel, like very posh San Tropez wear or whatever is appropriate.

-V

 

[Cryton]

Mines definitely more akin to the Victorian British Empire model than Imperial Roman model.

Might add the chariot racing though....

 

[jatay3]

Mine tends to be more of the Dune variety with the Emperor on his throne and all the various noble houses of the sector and subsector grants. Dress and uniform for Nobles tends to be of the Napoleonic through SpanAm war feel when at important state functions or work, again, like 1984 Dune. On holiday it tends to be very high end glitz feel, like very posh San Tropez wear or whatever is appropriate.

-V

It has a lot of resemblances to Dune as well. Though it handles all levels of society whereas with Dune sometimes you start to think "What do the simple folk do?"

 

[gloriousbattle]

I can see the British Empire as a good model. But, c'mon, it's GOT to be a LITTLE bit Roman. I mean, it is called the Imperium.

 

[gloriousbattle]

Canon describes the moot with 2 and only 2 powers: to elect/confirm the emperor, and to disolve the imperium; the Roman Senate continuously was the legislative body throughout even the ceasaro-imperial Roman era.

In name only for most of that period. After the end of the Julio-Claudian line (the first five or six emperors, depending on how you count them) the Senate wised up, and figured out its place as a bunch of old men with cushy jobs who would rubber stamp for the Emperor, condemn anybody else who claimed the throne, and then cheerfully condemn that Emperor if somebody else did manage to take the throne.

 

[rancke]

Canon describes the moot with 2 and only 2 powers: to elect/confirm the emperor, and to disolve the imperium; the Roman Senate continuously was the legislative body throughout even the ceasaro-imperial Roman era.

I think that the Emperor makes a little more use of the Moot than that, having it draft much of the legislation he then enacts by edict. However, it's certainly arguable that the emperors wouldn't want to encourage the nobles to think that they had any say in making up the rules, so perhaps not.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I think that the Emperor makes a little more use of the Moot than that, having it draft much of the legislation he then enacts by edict. However, it's certainly arguable that the emperors wouldn't want to encourage the nobles to think that they had any say in making up the rules, so perhaps not.


Hans

I think Rome is the right model... but not Imperial Rome... Catholic Rome... more correctly, the Vatican. The Pope rules by decree. No decree is made without consultation. Said consultation is either in formal council (Ecumenical Council), or by individual polling (usually by letters), or by standing subcouncils (National Conferences), and is little seen. Administrative consistories and congregations perform tasks set by the Pope; often, a form of meritocracy, with the topmost appointed by the pope directly, the rest with his sufferance.

The Moot operates the same; The Emperor consults with the moot, but makes the decisions himself, and gets his information from the moot, listens to the moot, and occasionally confirms a moot decision. Often, a committee gets a task, or a ministry some function to oversee.

 

[jatay3]

I think that the Emperor makes a little more use of the Moot than that, having it draft much of the legislation he then enacts by edict. However, it's certainly arguable that the emperors wouldn't want to encourage the nobles to think that they had any say in making up the rules, so perhaps not.


Hans

On the other hand, the Emperor is running an empire of 11000 worlds(even making allowances for that "space between the stars" bit). There is simply not time enough to get all that done.

Furthermore, nominally absolute monarchies are often not so absolute when looked at more closely. Maria Theresa often ruled less by fiat then by charming great magnates with her oh-so-pretty face(well, it did work).

 

[Blue Ghost]

IMTU, it is about as Roman as it gets. The Imperial Moot is the Senate, and Senators wear togas. In the military, the Imperial Roman salute is given

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y12oxrh5sv4

and I even do chariot races (pod races, but very Roman looking) with a variant on these rules.

http://dungeonsanddragonschariotracing.webs.com/

I think its almost impossible to run the Third Imperium without at least a nod to the Romans. What about you?

Why in the world would you introduce elements of the the Roman empire in the 3I? Are you crazy?

 

[gloriousbattle]

Why in the world would you introduce elements of the the Roman empire in the 3I? Are you crazy?

1. The word "Imperium" is Latin.

2. It follows the Rule of Cool.

3. Togas and gladiuses are utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

4. It gives me the option of having a pod racing circus maximus, complete with "scythed pods" and "electro-whips" for the players to game and bet on, which is utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

5. It gives me the option of having K'kree, Ithklur and Aslan gladiator fights for the players to game and bet on, which is utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

6. I can force my players to wear togas and do the fist to the chest salute, which is utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

Need I go on?

 

[mbrinkhues]

1. The word "Imperium" is Latin.

2. It follows the Rule of Cool.

What is "cool" on an empire that got kicked in the butts by a bunch of barely organized peasants with little armor/weapons loosing 15000 soldiers! And the baggage train!

3. Togas and gladiuses are utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

Togas are only cool if you are extremly fat. In that case they can hide a LOT of blubber in all that clothing. Otherwise they are extremly uncool.

And the Gladius well it was replaced by a weapon originally designed for the barbarian auxilaries.

4. It gives me the option of having a pod racing circus maximus, complete with "scythed pods" and "electro-whips" for the players to game and bet on, which is utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

Oh merily yey! StarWars Clone 4711-0815. It was boring when they did it in the movie and it does not get better. Why not come up with something new and creative. At least the 1960s "sandal" movies had chariot races outside the Circus Maximus

5. It gives me the option of having K'kree, Ithklur and Aslan gladiator fights for the players to game and bet on, which is utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

Done to death by multiple RPGs. Then reviewed, done to death again by the movie industrie. Finally sold as freeze-dried. Gladiator battles where old/boring in the days of "Renegade Legion"

6. I can force my players to wear togas and do the fist to the chest salute, which is utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

About as cool as "Millionen stehen hinter mir" style salutes.

 

[kafka47]

Roman is one of the layers of the onion...there are planets and sectors that would be very Roman in feel usually along the Vilani frontier. Therefore, I use an onion approach...the closer that one gets to the Core, the more Sylvan it gets but further out...it many different conception of Empires. So, while, Rome does play a big part in defining the Imperium...it is not the only one...

Can someone find Stephon's speech...at the preamble of one of the MT/TNE books when he talks about the influences on the Imperium where he does cite Rome but also the United States and Vilani bureaux, etc. THanks!

 

[jatay3]

1. The word "Imperium" is Latin.

2. It follows the Rule of Cool.

3. Togas and gladiuses are utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

4. It gives me the option of having a pod racing circus maximus, complete with "scythed pods" and "electro-whips" for the players to game and bet on, which is utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

5. It gives me the option of having K'kree, Ithklur and Aslan gladiator fights for the players to game and bet on, which is utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

6. I can force my players to wear togas and do the fist to the chest salute, which is utterly cool. See rule #2, above.

Need I go on?

Latin is a cross-cultural language, and Roman political terms are often borrowed.

Romans were bureaucratic and liked things just so. Victorians thought of themselves in Kipling and H Rider Haggard terms. That follows the rule of cooler.

Togas and gladii can still be worn at an Imperial or for that matter at a Victorian party.

Gladiators can be accounted for by a local planetary fight club.

The Chest salute can be accounted for too.

There is no reason why the Imperium couldn't have a number of deliberate shout outs to Rome. Many governments do and that tradition would likely be taken to the stars. Especially as the Imperium would know that in-verse. Ritual of State is by definition based on the Rule of Cool, and there are a number of traditions including Rome, that an Imperial Palace Chamberlain would naturally draw on.

 

[gloriousbattle]

[Shrugs] my players always thought it was cool, so that's good enough for me. They have also, spontaneously, mind you, broken out in a shout of "Hail Caesar!" on one occasion, which is cool.

 

[rancke]

I think Rome is the right model... but not Imperial Rome... Catholic Rome... more correctly, the Vatican. The Pope rules by decree. No decree is made without consultation. Said consultation is either in formal council (Ecumenical Council), or by individual polling (usually by letters), or by standing subcouncils (National Conferences), and is little seen. Administrative consistories and congregations perform tasks set by the Pope; often, a form of meritocracy, with the topmost appointed by the pope directly, the rest with his sufferance.

The Moot operates the same; The Emperor consults with the moot, but makes the decisions himself, and gets his information from the moot, listens to the moot, and occasionally confirms a moot decision. Often, a committee gets a task, or a ministry some function to oversee.

Yes, I think that sounds quite likely. I also think that many of the edicts would be fairly broad, of the form "The duchies shall enact legslation to accomplish <goal>". That would allow individual duchies to tailor the rules to fit local conditions, which is supposed to be one of the reasons for having the Imperium divided into duchies in the first place. (Of couirse, duchies where special conditions did not apply might easily enact a boilerplate version).


Hans

 

[jatay3]

[Shrugs] my players always thought it was cool, so that's good enough for me. They have also, spontaneously, mind you, broken out in a shout of "Hail Caesar!" on one occasion, which is cool.

Coolness is in the eye of the beholder, and in TTU almost anything can be justified by "local conditions". Furthermore the Imperium would certainly have some shout-outs to Rome. Most occidental-influenced Solimani states(including America)have them. The shadow of Rome is just so big. If nothing else, every formally organized army in the world is a copycat of the Roman one. Deliberately so; the present system harkens to the eighteenth century, and that in turn was built by Latinophile generals in the 1500's and 1600's. Rome is the literal Mother of all Armies. I remember reading a memoir by an IDF soldier about how some of his duties included walking around in the streets of Jerusalem and Looking Menacing. It reminded me so much of some of the scenes I had read in The Robe or watched in similar Sword-and-Sandals productions. And of course it was largely the same; the boring job of Looking Menacing in a faction afflicted city is the same under whatever flag. Nonetheless it stuck in my mind as a kind of deju-vu as if the writer of the memoir was Rome's gift to Israel.

Be that as it may, I really don't want to sound as if I am dumping on you to much. Naturally it is YTU and the first criteria is your own pleasure. And of course the Imperium would have some Rome like aspects. Any political system will find some way to leave an impression and will romanticize itself. The Imperium would probably have shout-outs to a number of previous civilizations, but certainly Rome would be their.

 

[jatay3]

[Shrugs] my players always thought it was cool, so that's good enough for me. They have also, spontaneously, mind you, broken out in a shout of "Hail Caesar!" on one occasion, which is cool.

Coolness is in the eye of the beholder, and in TTU almost anything can be justified by "local conditions". Furthermore the Imperium would certainly have some shout-outs to Rome. Most occidental-influenced Solimani states(including America)have them. The shadow of Rome is just so big. If nothing else, every formally organized army in the world is a copycat of the Roman one. Deliberately so; the present system harkens to the eighteenth century, and that in turn was built by Latinophile generals in the 1500's and 1600's. Rome is the literal Mother of all Armies. I remember reading a memoir by an IDF soldier about how some of his duties included walking around in the streets of Jerusalem and Looking Menacing. It reminded me so much of some of the scenes I had read in The Robe or watched in similar Sword-and-Sandals productions. And of course it was largely the same; the boring job of Looking Menacing in a faction afflicted city is the same under whatever flag. Nonetheless it stuck in my mind as a kind of deju-vu as if the writer of the memoir was Rome's gift to Israel.

Be that as it may, I really don't want to sound as if I am dumping on you to much. Naturally it is YTU and the first criteria is your own pleasure. And of course the Imperium would have some Rome like aspects. Any political system will find some way to leave an impression and will romanticize itself. The Imperium would probably have shout-outs to a number of previous civilizations, but certainly Rome would be there.