How Roman is your Third Imperium?

[patar]

"the Roman Senate continuously was the legislative body throughout even the ceasaro-imperial Roman era."

Maybe at the start of the imperial era. Certainly not in the middle and end.

 

[savage]

Very Roman

The 3rd Imperium collapsed in a burning heap of rubble. :rofl:

 

[Cryton]

So did the Roman Empire.....:rofl:

 

[kafka47]

This thread had me thinking most cities (including Rome) before the advent of brick and concrete had Great Fires which allowed for all sorts of new developments...now, there would not be a Fire per se in the Imperium that would wipe things out...but other than the Psionic Suppressions what events could we say fundamentally altered the nature of the Imperium akin to the Great Fire.

 

[jatay3]

The 3rd Imperium collapsed in a burning heap of rubble. :rofl:

Not in the Gurps version. I try not to think about the other one.

 

[savage]

Gurps ?

Not in the Gurps version. I try not to think about the other one.

I ran T20 for a while not Gurps. Although, I respect the Gurps system. The question is "How Roman is your Third Imperium?"

cheers.

 

[jatay3]

I ran T20 for a while not Gurps. Although, I respect the Gurps system. The question is "How Roman is your Third Imperium?"

cheers.

But that particular comment referred to the Infamous Traveller Schism.

 

[Black Vulmea]

I think its almost impossible to run the Third Imperium without at least a nod to the Romans. What about you?

I treat the Third Imperium as the Third Imperium, not "Rome is space," or "Victorian Britain in space," or "Imperial Japanese zaibatsu in space."

If I'm forced to draw an analogy to some terran institution, I would probably opt for the Mob, with the fief-holding nobility the capos and the Emperor as capo di tutti capi. You make your bones (a fortune in business, or perhaps military success) and you join a family (Imperial barony); if you do well in protecting the family's interests, you may get a family of your own (Imperial county or marquessate) or even rise to sotto capo (Imperial duchy).

The megacorporations are "mobbed up" Imperial businesses; the nobility is responsible for seeing that the megacorporations continue to be profitable for the Imperial family, and in exchange for loyalty and service the Emperor protects the nobility with his family's soldati (Imperial Navy).

Again, it's just an analogy, but it helps explain why I hear "Speak Softly Love" in my head when I'm running Traveller.

 

[gloriousbattle]

This thread had me thinking most cities (including Rome) before the advent of brick and concrete had Great Fires which allowed for all sorts of new developments...now, there would not be a Fire per se in the Imperium that would wipe things out...but other than the Psionic Suppressions what events could we say fundamentally altered the nature of the Imperium akin to the Great Fire.

Nuclear bombs make pretty big fires, as do fleets of crazy vampire ships , though that would be more analogous to the end of the empire.

 

[gloriousbattle]

I treat the Third Imperium as the Third Imperium, not "Rome is space," or "Victorian Britain in space," or "Imperial Japanese zaibatsu in space."

You can try, but I think the attempt is doomed to failure. We draw too many tropes unconsciously from the great empires of the past, and what else do we really have to work with? At most, I think that your Third Imperium must be an unconscious mixing of these tropes, as well as others, such as Charlemagne's empire, Czarist Russia, Ottoman Turkey, etc.

 

[Black Vulmea]

You can try, but I think the attempt is doomed to failure. We draw too many tropes unconsciously from the great empires of the past . . .

While that may be true for you, it doesn't follow that it's true for everyone everywhere.

. . . and what else do we really have to work with?

The vast amount of material for Traveller published over the last thirty years, plus speculative fiction and our own imaginations.

I spend far more of my time thinking about Vilani culture and its impact on institutions than I do Terran, and I draw inspiration from the spec-fic cited by MWM and others in creating Traveller.

At most, I think that your Third Imperium must be an unconscious mixing of these tropes, as well as others, such as Charlemagne's empire, Czarist Russia, Ottoman Turkey, etc.

You are welcome to believe what you will, but since I'm guessing you and I never actually sat at a gaming table together, you really don't have very much on which to base that conviction.

As I said, I don't think of the Third Imperium in terms of 'Empire X" so much as I consider it a sort of interstellar protection racket, and a list of terran empires doesn't really fit that model at all.

 

[gloriousbattle]

While that may be true for you, it doesn't follow that it's true for everyone everywhere.The vast amount of material for Traveller published over the last thirty years, plus speculative fiction and our own imaginations.

I spend far more of my time thinking about Vilani culture and its impact on institutions than I do Terran, and I draw inspiration from the spec-fic cited by MWM and others in creating Traveller.You are welcome to believe what you will, but since I'm guessing you and I never actually sat at a gaming table together, you really don't have very much on which to base that conviction.

As I said, I don't think of the Third Imperium in terms of 'Empire X" so much as I consider it a sort of interstellar protection racket, and a list of terran empires doesn't really fit that model at all.

And you're welcome to believe what you want, but unless you think human knowledge of imperial systems arises a priori, you are wrong. That's just the way the mind works. Even the most alien of societies can only be based on something we already know and understand. Take 40k's Tyranids, for instance. As alien as they appear to be, they are really just army ants in spaaaaaaaaaace. Sure, they have other tropes attached to them, but that's all.

As to your Vilani, what are they? Simply a fairly standard human imperial culture with a caste system that has stagnated because it has expanded as far as it can with existing technology, which falls apart when it meets a younger, more vibrant culture. That is really just Mughal India meeting the British or Achaemenid Persia meeting Alexander. Sure, there are other tropes thrown in, such as the three Bureaux, but that is the essence of it.

Have fun, and good gaming.

 

[Vargas]

I've come to conceive of the Third Imperium as being run day-to-day by a bureaucracy that is directed by the Emperor/Empress in consultation with his/her trusted advisors. The advisors include technocrats from the bureaucracy and nobility from the ministerial level (plus some hangers on no doubt). The Iridium Throne does the high level planning and policy guidance which is translated into actionable instructions by the bureaucracy before transmitted to the lower levels of the government for implementation locally. There are a lot of checks and balances to keep the power of the bureaucracy and nobility balanced out.

I don’t see the point of a representative body on Capital because communications lag time prevents the bulk of its members from having timely direction from home. They would mainly be there to help shovel pork barrel spending home. A noble from the Old Expanses will have little interest in the concerns of his opposite number from Deneb and vice versa because they don’t understand or care about the nuances of the other’s situation. Except in dire circumstances, another Rim or Frontier War, I doubt they’d come to any useful consensus as to how to advise the Throne.

 

[Dragoner]

I model the 3I after the Austro-Hungarian or Holy Roman Empire, with the duality being Terran-Vilani. Old, bureaucratic, hide-bound, traditions, etc.; the moot being similar to the system of electors. Very pluralistic but not nationalist, with many rights at a local level but all serving the rule of the Emperor.

 

[whitedalek]

well... i've always thought of the Imperium as a eccentric quasi-historical mix of...
"age of sail" exploration/colonization
politics of classical Roman and English Empires
honor societies of medieval knights & squires
legacy bureacracies of Byzantine/Chinese/SovBloc characteristics

but how do you "hear" the Imperium ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt5C9EruZ94
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdos02NooVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gc4Yeiogl0

or...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuxHLzwlDY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQH7s0ndQWY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-r6mU2JnKo -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9jsUaaoVJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmZvn83G348

and seeing the Imperium as a lavish Technicolor production with current production design standards...

 

[gloriousbattle]

Cool stuff! I used to play the Marcia Romani during Roman miniatures battles and rpgs.

 

[BillDowns]

I don't often involve the OTU version of the 3I, but when I do, it is more like these than anything else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lUjhEHlh7s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xd_zkMEgkI

 

[whitedalek]

Come see the violence inherent in the system!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg

subtle humour in the 3I, who is Tim the Enchanter, and who is the Vorpal Bunny ?

or would it be like this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H0pHpAHrAo

 

[Mithras]

Interesting! I don't know anything about the Vatican. What type of government would you classify that as? 9, 3, even 5?

I think Rome is the right model... but not Imperial Rome... Catholic Rome... more correctly, the Vatican. The Pope rules by decree. No decree is made without consultation. Said consultation is either in formal council (Ecumenical Council), or by individual polling (usually by letters), or by standing subcouncils (National Conferences), and is little seen. Administrative consistories and congregations perform tasks set by the Pope; often, a form of meritocracy, with the topmost appointed by the pope directly, the rest with his sufferance.

 

[aramis]

Interesting! I don't know anything about the Vatican. What type of government would you classify that as? 9, 3, even 5?

Depending on the pope, Charismatic Dictatorship or Non-charismatic dictatorship. He's one of the 3 last remaining absolute monarchs left; the other two are in micronations as well.

Rome operates by a series of dicasteries, the heads of which are appointed by the pope directly, and the membership by referral and papal endorsement. The day to day Vatican system is a civil service bureaucracy format within an oligarchy (the clergy), with some limited input from outside (the laity).

Popes are elected by the cardinals, and appoint the cardinals. Oligarchy? Feudal Technocracy?

So, in the end, I'd stick to the sorce of governance and governed: Charismatic dictatorship.