I need skill help please

[Heretic]

I have been reading the core rulebook over and over to figure this vague part out, but still don't get it:

So skills have a competence level. 0 means no penalty. 1 means +1, etc etc. And some skills have specializations, where any roll concerning that specialty gains the modifier in it (i.e. +1 pistol would allow +1 with rolls concerning pistols but 0 with any other gun).

But what if I don't want to specialize? Is it possible to do Gun Combat (Any) 3 and specialize in Gun Combat (Pistol) 4, or vice versa? Once I hit Gun Combat 0, do I have to specialize?

 

[BytePro]

No 'Gun Combat(Any)3' is in the Rules As Written... (and JoT is basically limited to JoT-3, i.e. (Any Skill) level 0).

The specialization is required for anything other than level 0.

This is a game 'balance' issue - in part because MgT provides for a lot of skill levels in chargen compared to CT (from which it is directly based).

 

[Heretic]

Thanks for clearing that up for me! I couldn't seem to find that rule in the book, but this forum is a great help.

 

[BytePro]

Glad that was helpful - though the rules cover it, the books aren't overly clear on specialties and their rationales.

 

[GypsyComet]

The skills with specialties are intended to cover those groups of training topics that are sufficiently related that a basic familiarity can be broad based, but further training must be more focused. A zero skill applies to the entire skill set, but the specialties must be raised beyond that as if they were separate skills.

Most of them make sense. The only one I have trouble with is the Science groups. Social is a bit too big, but they are going to be pretty esoteric in most Traveller games, so a big set of zeros is less an issue.

Physical Sciences should have Planetology as its third, not Electronics.
Technical Sciences would have Electronics, Robotics, and Cybernetics.
Life Sciences can keep Cybernetics (so its available in two places, big deal), and gain Xenology.
Space Sciences would lose Robotics and gain Physics and Sophontology (again, as repeats).

---

Looking at the others, Animals, Athletics, Drive, Engineer, Flyer, Gunner, Gun Combat, Heavy Weapons, Language, Melee, Pilot, Seafarer, and Tactics all seem fine. Art and Trade are a bit scattered, but they can earn a pass by being mostly little used background stuff,

 

[Icosahedron]

I've never been convinced that a Skill-5 marksman with a Slug Rifle would suddenly lose 5 skill levels if he tried to aim a laser rifle or shotgun...
But that's what the rules say.

Don't you just love houserules?

 

[GypsyComet]

Perhaps, but letting high skills "bleed" into the rest of a Specialty Group is really only justified for Gun Combat and Athletics, and maybe Heavy Weapons, Melee, and Animals. The rest are either *really* specialized or have at least one outlier that is different enough to make Skill Bleed more ridiculous than its absence seems to be for guns.

 

[BytePro]

Pilot skills also 'bleed' a bit...

A crackerjack starship pilot trying to pilot a ship's boat is most likely going to only have some limited issues with controls initially, but after a bit, most of his pilot skill would apply, IMTU. However, troubleshooting equipment issues with flight systems (working around - not really repair, which would require other skills) I would be unlikely to apply the Pilot(Spacecraft)...

'Bleed' actually occurs for most other specialties when one considers special cases... my fix in all cases is during the game to cross apply skills and levels/reduced levels based on a case by case scenario... an Engineer may have computer-0 or more competency and some mechanical in specific cases, for instance. Pilots have default comm-0 and sensor-0 skills for normal and easier tasks, but as extra -1 DM for each level of added difficulty.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

Sorry for getting a little off track here, but what you posted reminded me a little of an article I once read where some people had set up a sail boat race indoors using specially built small sail boats and a lot of fans around a large pool. In the end the winner of the races was actually an F-18 pilot, who beat some more experienced sailors. It was suggested that his skill as a pilot gave him good hand, eye and foot coordination, which was a big deal for the small boats that they were using, and the specially controls they contained.

Sorry for getting off track.

Regards

Pat

 

[BytePro]

Not really so off track...

Also, the F-18 pilot had a lot of training regards airflow - strategically I'd bet on him having quite an advantage in that regards, especially if the ships were custom built.

Actually, many sailboat design programs I've seen were based on aeronautical engineering... for both sails and hulls. There are differences between compressible and in-compressible fluid dynamics, but a lot of math and fundamental concepts are the same.

 

[aramis]

Pilot skills also 'bleed' a bit...

A crackerjack starship pilot trying to pilot a ship's boat is most likely going to only have some limited issues with controls initially, but after a bit, most of his pilot skill would apply, IMTU. However, troubleshooting equipment issues with flight systems (working around - not really repair, which would require other skills) I would be unlikely to apply the Pilot(Spacecraft)...

'Bleed' actually occurs for most other specialties when one considers special cases... my fix in all cases is during the game to cross apply skills and levels/reduced levels based on a case by case scenario... an Engineer may have computer-0 or more competency and some mechanical in specific cases, for instance. Pilots have default comm-0 and sensor-0 skills for normal and easier tasks, but as extra -1 DM for each level of added difficulty.

Really, separating Pilot and Ship's Boat is a problem - the two deal with identical environment, and identical course methodologies. Which is why the MegaTraveller method is superior: Pilot Serves as Ship's Boat at Pilot-minus-one-level. I can see that for the differences in maneuverability, etc.

But Engineering? The only systems Ship's Engineer Fusion Plant would have in common are with Jump Drive, and even then, a penalty is well in order, as the JD is only partially a fusion plant.

 

[BytePro]

CT had same Pilot-minus-one-level thing. Didn't work the other way around for Ship's Pilot, though.

For MgT, I just increase the difficulty on first attempts (which, depending on situation, player can change time scale for DMs), then treat skills as equivalent for normal and easier operations and use -1 DM for each level of added difficulty (since skill levels represent experience, and such is less applicable the harder the 'specialized' task) or when trying to go faster.

Regards Engineering - I prefer the CT version. In CT, Engineering covered operation and maintenance of drives and power plants. For small player parties this works better. In such situations, I would use Engineering(Any) = top level minus 1 for normal and easier tasks, and the same difficulty and going faster mechanic as above. This gives some advantage to having higher levels in different specialties when dealing with more unusual tasks, or attempting faster tasks - so it doesn't totally break chargen.

 

[McPerth]

Really, separating Pilot and Ship's Boat is a problem - the two deal with identical environment, and identical course methodologies. Which is why the MegaTraveller method is superior: Pilot Serves as Ship's Boat at Pilot-minus-one-level. I can see that for the differences in maneuverability, etc.

But Engineering? The only systems Ship's Engineer Fusion Plant would have in common are with Jump Drive, and even then, a penalty is well in order, as the JD is only partially a fusion plant.

For MgT, I just increase the difficulty on first attempts (which, depending on situation, player can change time scale for DMs), then treat skills as equivalent for normal and easier operations and use -1 DM for each level of added difficulty (since skill levels represent experience, and such is less applicable the harder the 'specialized' task) or when trying to go faster.

Regards Engineering - I prefer the CT version. In CT, Engineering covered operation and maintenance of drives and power plants. For small player parties this works better. In such situations, I would use Engineering(Any) = top level minus 1 for normal and easier tasks, and the same difficulty and going faster mechanic as above. This gives some advantage to having higher levels in different specialties when dealing with more unusual tasks, or attempting faster tasks - so it doesn't totally break chargen.

I partially agree with both of you in this subject. In Aramis support I must agree engineering specialties can be quite diferent, but in Bytepro support I must agree having them as specialities raises quite a lot the crew needs of a small starship (unless you accept your engineer has level 0 in most specialities). Where you needed a single engineer to keep your ship well served, now you need four, or where you had a level 4 engineer (quite good served a ship) now you have one with 4 level 1 skills (a single crewmemeber, but ship is quite less well served).

If we begin to tamper about specialties in skills, I guess we'll soon begin to have problems, as most of them cover several different specialties (Admin is used equally everywhere, while administration procedures may be quite different ,even contradictory; medical covers all specializations, try your surgeon (Skill level 4) to treat someone in the street, without support, and you'll regreet not having a paramedic (skill level 1-2) instead of him, etc...)

CT had same Pilot-minus-one-level thing. Didn't work the other way around for Ship's Pilot, though.

Neither did it in MT.

Other skills were also treated as used as, with penalty or without, and usually that was one-way advantage (Navigator used as Sensor ops-1, Tactics used as Ship's tactics-1, Battledress used as Vacc Suit w/o penatly,...)

 

[BytePro]

... raises quite a lot the crew needs of a small starship (unless you accept your engineer hsa level 0 in most specialities). ...

Engineer does have Engineer(Any)-0. However, the 'average' character (i.e. with no characteristic DMs) has less than 50% chance of success for a normal task. Level 0 represents basic familiarity, but no real experience. Hardly someone you'd want to entrust with Life Support, Power, Manuever, or Jump for a multi-MCr vessel and the lives of all onboard (and those nearby) under normal circumstances...

I treat the skill more like having an Engineering degree and being expected to have the skills to handle a variety of technologies - which is not unusual in the RW.

For a player group of 3 to 4 players, having multiple Engineers may be a challenge, or it may not. MgT gives a lot more skill levels than CT. Though the RAW provides for -2 DM penalties for multiple tasks, which I also use (house modified, of course ) YMMV

 

[GypsyComet]

MgT gives a lot more skill levels than CT.

More than Basic CT and MT, fewer than Advanced CT and MT. MGT gives out a lot of zero skills, however, while CT and MT told the Ref to wing it.

 

[McPerth]

MgT gives a lot more skill levels than CT.

More than Basic CT and MT, fewer than Advanced CT and MT. MGT gives out a lot of zero skills, however, while CT and MT told the Ref to wing it.

I agree with you about CT, basic Chargen, but I don't about MT's as you can have up to 5 skills per term on it (not a usual occurrence, but 2-3 skills/term may be expected): Automatic, promotion (2 skills if you roll needed +4), special duty (ditto). In your first term you must add another skill level and 1-2 for position roll, raising the maximum skills per term to 8 (plus automatic skills, of course).

In MT basic chargen you can end your first term with 9 skill levels in some careers, and your seccond with 14 (quite a luck needed, but possible).

Add to that the included, used as and used as xx-1...

Still say MGT gives more skill levels?

 

[BytePro]

Yep still do!

Counting level 0 skill, as that is a level to me since it affects the DMs - more so than any other level to be exact.

I'm only comparing to CT since that is the stated official license basis for MgT - though no doubt other versions have had an influence on the authors (ala the MT like task mechanic).

Between homeworld and typical half dozen basic skills, not to mention connection and package skills - it adds up quickly and seems to exceed my normal CT counts. I'm just counting 'levels' - i.e anything that gives a level (any level) in a skill.

This makes the specialty mechanic a counter balance of sorts and to work with the task mechanic, though they may have been added just because the author's thought it was a cool idea.

 

[aramis]

CT can have, in theory:
Each term: 1 skill level
1st term: +1 skill level
Commission: +1 Skill level
Promotion: +1 Skill level
Service skill (aka R0) : +1 Skill Level
Rank skill R1: +1 Skill level
Rank skill R2: +1 Skill level

7 max for term 1 basic, +3 max per additional term to term 5, +1 max per term after. But note, no CT Bk1 career has more than 2 Rank/service skills, and only one S4 skill has 3 (Barbarian), and they are ranks 0, 2 and 5...

So in practice, it's 6 maximum for term 1, and 3 maximum for one additional term, and 2 maximum for 3 additional terms, and then 1 additional thereafter.

Plus not more than (Terms+(rank/2))-1 for mustering out benefits converted from weapon to skill (as the first MUST be taken as the weapon).

So:
CT Bk 1 practical (Max Career + Max Convert)
T1 Min 2, Max 7 (6+1)
T2 Min 3, Max 11 (9+2)
T3 Min 4, Max 15 (11+4)
T4 Min 5, Max 19 (13+6)
T5 Min 6, Max 22 (15+7)
T6 Min 7, Max 24 (16+8)
T7 Min 8, max 26 (17+9)
T8 Min 9, Max 28 (18+10)

MgT Maximum from generation
Term 1: 11 Level 0 (5 max background, 6 max career)
+ 1-7 Level 1... 1 survival, 0-1 event, and 0-1 advancement, +0-2 rank skills, +1 skill from end of service campaign skill pack, +0-1 skills from connection
2nd term: 1-5... +1 survival, 0-1 event, 0-1 advancement, +0-1 rank skills, +0-1 connection skill.
3rd to 6th terms: 1-4 ... +1 survival, +0-1 event, +0-1 Advancement, +0-1 rank skills
7th+ terms: 1-2... +1 surival, +0-1 event

Practical: I don't see any core rules careers with more than 4 available rank skills, including enlisted 0.
Which changes the line 3-6 to 3-4, and 7+ to 5+.

For:
Character: 3-11 Level 0 skills and levels from
Term 1: 2-9... 2-8 skill Levels + 0-1 conversions from MOB
Term 2: 3-15... 3-13 total skill levels + 0-2 conversions
Term 3: 4-23... 4-19 Total skill levels + 0-4 conversions
Term 4: 5-28... 5-23 total skill levels + 0-5 conversions
Term 5: 6-32... 6-25 TSL + 0-7 conversions
Term 6 7-35... 7-27 TSL + 0-8 conversions
Term 7: 8-38... 8-29 TSL + 0-9 conversions
Term 8: 9-41

MT, for reference, adds 4 to the maximum term 1 (SD, BS Promo, BS Commission, and BS SD), and 3 to the maximum each term through 5, and 2 thereafter. It also adds 0-4 level 0 skills. And it adds an additional potential conversion each term due to double terms in MOB.s

Comparing, including conversions from TSL, and ignoring advanced...
T1: CT 2-7, MT 2-12, MGT 2-9
T2: CT 3-11, MT 3-21, MGT 3-15
T3: CT 4-15, MT 4-28, MGT 4-23
T4: CT 5-19, MT 5-36, MGT 5-28
T5: CT 6-22, MT 6-43, MGT 6-32
T6: CT 7-24, MT 7-48, MGT 7-35
T7: CT 8-26, MT 8-53, MGT 8-38
T8: CT 9-28, MT 9-57, MGT 9-41


The averages, however, are generally lower CT averages about 1+(1.3*Terms), MT about 1+(1.8* terms), and MGT about 1+(1.6*terms)

Oh, and Bk5/MT advanced? It's possible to get up to 3 years with 5 skills each for each available school, and 1 per year otherwise... I had a character who hit school each year for 6 years runnning, and got most of them... and had 28 skill levels in two terms. He died year one of term 3... (After 3 times, further trips are as instructor, for 1 level of instruction instead.) I've also seen 5 term retirees with 3 skill levels and no attribute receipts....

Just so y'know.

 

[McPerth]

Good analysis, Aramis.

There are also some points more difficult to calculate, as are included or serves as skills or skill equivalences.

A Pilot 3 in CT/MT (3 skill levels) is quivalent to Pilot (capital ships) 3 + Pilot (Spacecraft) 3 + Pilot (small craft) 2 in MGT (8 skill levels). An Engineer 3 (also 3 skill levels) in CT/MT is the equivalent to Engineer (all 5 specialties) 3 (15 skill levels), Battle Dress 3 (3 skill levels again) in CT/MT id the equivalent to Battle Dress 3 + Vacc suit 3 in MGT (6 skill levles), and many more.

In CT/MT you could run quite well a small starship with a small party (3-4 characters). If your party has maximum skills at Pilot 3, Navigation 2, engineer 3 (8 skill levels), You can run decently (to say the least) your starship. To do this in MGT you'd need another character for the sensors (The navigator may run them at level 1 in MT, and no need for it in CT) and 3-4 more in engineering (for a total of 21+ skill level to run it at equivalent efficiency). And of course that's only about ship related skills, they will surely have some more. I've not counted on this MGT engineer (electronics), because is treated as a diferent skill in CT/MT (electronics skill).

In game terms, this means that, unless you're playing with quite a large group or one with very high skill levels, you must stuff the crew with NPCs/robots just to make for the needed skills (or lower your crew efficiency).

 

[BytePro]

Excellent guys!

Think that all backs up what I was saying - MgT chars typically having more skills level counts than CT, with specialties offsetting that fact, but to the point where typical small parties can't operate a starship proficiently.

Hence, my house rules for specialty skills.

...I had a character who hit school each year for 6 years runnning, and got most of them... and had 28 skill levels in two terms. He died year one of term 3...

LOL - in CT, when the rolls were hot for chargen skills, the law of averages typically resulted in failing a survival roll. Probably adding to my experience that MgT generates higher skill level counts than CT.