If only we could "Restate" Classic Traveller

[hdan]

I was just reading through a "restated D&D" game I got from that ReaperMini kickstarter, and it it got me thinking about how it's a shame that we can't get Classic Traveller "restated". I realize this is not possible due to licensing, and I'm certainly not suggesting anyone do such a thing, but as an interesting thought experiment:

If you were going to take Classic Traveller, Books 1-3 and rewrite them to fit more modern rules layout, what parts would you clarify, what parts would you bring in from Books 4+ into the core rules, what tweaks would you make that still maintain the flavor of CT?

Note that "old school rewrites" (which are almost entirely versions of D&D at the moment due to the OGL) strive to maintain the feel and rules of the original game, just fold in some generally accepted house-rules and official clarifications. Or at least that's my favorite type of "rewrite", and what I'm going for here.

For me, I'd have Gun Combat select a "style" of weapon (Slug Pistol, Energy Rifle, etc.) instead of an actual weapon (Autopistol, Laser Rifle). With this added flexibility, I'd expand the weapon table to include snub, gauss, and other Book 4 weapons.

I'd rename ATV as Vehicle(ATV) and Air/Raft as Grav Vehicle, since that's what's really going on.

The character combat round sequence is a fertile ground for bringing in other rules, either Snapshot or some other version of Traveller. Or maybe even just a simple variation of the "Surprise" rules - each round, both teams roll d6, highest gets to choose movement order and then shoot first. Ties run simultaneously.

I'd leave Book 2 alone for the most part, though I'd make sure the Pulse/Beam clarifications were made clear, fold in the missiles supplement, and give a worksheet for programming the ship's computer that was broken down into phases to make those rules more accessible. I'd also add some of Merchant Prince's more advanced trade rules and cargo generation tables, but I'd err on the conservative side on that one.

Book 3 would get "Atmospheres" folded in, and "Scout"'s system generation rules.

(On second blush, how permissive is Mongoose's OGL? Most of the OD&D OGL attempts use the 3e license to recreate OD&D rules....)

 

[HG_B]

I was just reading through a "restated D&D" game I got from that ReaperMini kickstarter, and it it got me thinking about how it's a shame that we can't get Classic Traveller "restated". I realize this is not possible due to licensing, and I'm certainly not suggesting anyone do such a thing, but as an interesting thought experiment:

You could do pretty much that with MGT SRD. Numeric formulas aren't copyrightable. Just rework how you want.

 

[mike wightman]

Try searching for CT+ or classic Traveller + threads from a few years ago.

If I won the lottery and could buy the rights to CT from Marc here is what I would produce:

CT in the three LBB format.

Changes I would make:
LBB1 - charcter generation - add the special duty line to careers - add a couple of automatic skills to balance skill allocation from each career - allow for more level 0 skills based on career and terms in career.
Skill - cut them down to the bare minimum, mainly by combining weapons skills into handgun, rifle, brawling, 1-h weapon, 2-h weapon, weapon and shield that sort of thing
Task - use the two target number system 8+ or 12+
Combat - use a hybrid if T4/T20 armour as damage dice reduction.
Add a common equipment section.

LBB2 - cherry pick from the two versions of LBB2 and include rules for ship armour, barbettes, particle accelerators, energy weapons, weapon bays and screens.
Use the range band movement system with combat tasks for more characters to perform.
Add a vehicles section.

LBB3 - revise TL chart slightly and modify the planet generation numbers.
Add a section for referee advice with scenario generation, campaigns, and ripping off sic fi sources.

 

[robject]

As Mike said, this is the CT-Plus idea. Dig back into the forum to see what we were thinking about it.

As Traveller5 evolved, I found less need for Classic Traveller's core rules. I still rely on the reference material heavily.

For me, I'd have Gun Combat select a "style" of weapon (Slug Pistol, Energy Rifle, etc.) instead of an actual weapon (Autopistol, Laser Rifle). With this added flexibility, I'd expand the weapon table to include snub, gauss, and other Book 4 weapons.

That's how we build guns in Traveller5, as well as how combat skills work.

I'd rename ATV as Vehicle(ATV) and Air/Raft as Grav Vehicle, since that's what's really going on.

You're still referring to the skills, right? I agree.

LBB1 - charcter generation - add the special duty line to careers to - add a couple of automatic skills to balance skill allocation from each career - allow for more level 0 skills based on career and terms in career.

[...]

Combat - use a hybrid of T4/T20 armour as damage dice reduction.
Add a common equipment section.

LBB2 - cherry pick from the two versions of LBB2 and include rules for ship armour, barbettes, particle accelerators, energy weapons, weapon bays and screens.
Use the range band movement system with combat tasks for more characters to perform.
Add a vehicles section.

LBB3 - revise TL chart slightly and modify the planet generation numbers.

These are also what Traveller5 is doing.

 

[BytePro]

If you want to make your own version of Traveller - for personal use - go ahead. Just don't distribute it.

I scanned, OCR'd, and customized my CT books in the early '90's.

If one got a hundred Travellers together - and let them each house rule the game - you'd end up with 102 'restated' versions!

hdan - have you tried MgT? Its basically a 'restated CT'. Its mechanics are definitely 'updated' and it does incorporate quite a bit of errata and gronard influenced changes.

The MgT SRD, btw, is quite permissive, but it would restrict some things re: chargen, IIRC.

 

[HG_B]

The MgT SRD, btw, is quite permissive, but it would restrict some things re: chargen, IIRC.

No, use what's in the SRD or create your own. No restriction.

 

[hdan]

I'll definitely search for CT+ in the archives; it looks like my topic has already been done.

If one got a hundred Travellers together - and let them each house rule the game - you'd end up with 102 'restated' versions!

That's no joke! That's why it would probably best to focus on combining existing rules rather than creating new ones.

hdan - have you tried MgT? Its basically a 'restated CT'. Its mechanics are definitely 'updated' and it does incorporate quite a bit of errata and gronard influenced changes.

I have a number of the MgT books, and for me it's a very near miss. So much is good about it, but some things just feel wrong. The task system is elegant, the ship design rules are (mostly) Bk2+ in flavor, the armor system is nice but has some odd numbers, etc.

Still, MgT *is* the first version of Traveller since CT that still feels like "Traveller" to me. I'm not overly fond of the number of skills characters get, and the "Level 0" thing, while elegant in concept, in my experience leads more to the "character sheet is my playbook" style of roleplaying that a game like D&D has.

MgT's "0 level service skills" nicely helps illustrate what someone in a given service would know, I prefer a more open ended "A navy guy would know how to do [simple shipboard task]" approach.

I do seem to recall that the published careers are not part of the OGL, and I suspect the CT career tables can't just be nabbed without license for the same reason.

Eh, it's a daydream. I'm not invested enough in the idea to really pursue it; it just seemed like a fun topic of conversation.

 

[BytePro]

hdan - despite my earlier joke - I could have posted word for word what you just did re:MgT (just I'm wordier)!

After a few years with MgT, I've gone back to my limited CT (basically Bks 1-3 and some sys gen from 6) - and actually got motivated enough that I indeed started to rewrite the books for myself. To the point of exactly replicating LBB size, fonts and layouts directly in PostScript. (Even several of the forms and IDs from Supp 12).

But I didn't get too far before losing interest - I'd rather play.

[Or make up my own game - fully computer supported that is... but I haven't gotten that motivated - yet.]

 

[HG_B]

I do seem to recall that the published careers are not part of the OGL, and I suspect the CT career tables can't just be nabbed without license for the same reason..

The basic SRD has Scouts. HG SRD has the naval career. Merc SRD has those careers. All skills are in there. You could remake and publish a new Trav in all except TM'ed name of game. Basically, the 'cat is out of the bag' for anyone who wants to write their own "fluff" and publish for free or fee...

Also, all versions have rules that need to be cleaned up. So, there ya go.

 

[robject]

Eh, it's a daydream. I'm not invested enough in the idea to really pursue it; it just seemed like a fun topic of conversation.

It is a daydream, but it's still a valuable exercise to try.

 

[Timerover51]

I am not sure that you would need to "restate" Classic Traveller, as it is basically a solid game to go from. The three areas that I would like to change, and need to formally type up my changes are the combat system, the world generating system, and the ship design system.

For the combat system, I use the one in Don Featherstone's Skirmish Wargaming, which covers combat from ancient times to the modern era quite adequately and precisely at the level of Traveller, as it is aimed at individual combat.

For the world generating system, put in a series of die modifiers to the population die roll based on planetary, atmospheric, and hydrographic extremes, along with Tech Level modifiers. Planets with conditions similar to Earth have the highest populations, while as the planetary conditions diverge more and more from Earth, the population gets smaller. I may make an exception for asteroid belts, as I do like the Belter game.

The aim of reworking the ship design system is to make a clear distinction between a civilian and military ship in terms of construction and possible weaponry. That I am still working on. The maximum size ship is somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 tons, with hull costs, propulsion system, and sensor suites clearly different between military and civilian, with a bit of cross over for Scouts.

Aside from those, the main area would be tweaking the trade area, and establishing exactly how much cargo by mass can be carried in the Traveller displacement ton. I had those pretty well worked out in the early 1980s but that was 30 years ago, and I do not know where my notes are now.

Put that all together is a house rules booklet to supplement the basic game, and I am ready to go.

 

[atpollard]

These are also what Traveller5 is doing.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that T5 was built on a T4 game mechanic rather than a CT game mechanic. Doesn't that mean that T5 'plays' rather differently than CT?

My only point is that while there are useful similarities between CT and T5, there may also be some significant differences ... but correct me if I am wrong.

[T5 is still hidden far too deep behind it's wall of secrecy. I look forward to its release so we can hear some meaningful reviews of its organization and mechanics ... I am so tired of "I hated the draft released 10 years ago, so T5 must suck" or "It is great, but we can't really talk about it". While both statements are probably true, neither is particularly helpful.]

 

[atpollard]

For the world generating system, put in a series of die modifiers to the population die roll based on planetary, atmospheric, and hydrographic extremes, along with Tech Level modifiers. Planets with conditions similar to Earth have the highest populations, while as the planetary conditions diverge more and more from Earth, the population gets smaller. I may make an exception for asteroid belts, as I do like the Belter game.

While this makes perfect sense, it will pretty much eliminate the whole 'frontier life in space' branch of space opera ... there will be no 'carving a homestead out of the wilderness' unless the 'wilderness' is an airless rock ball (with cows in vacc suits? o: ).

 

[robject]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that T5 was built on a T4 game mechanic rather than a CT game mechanic. Doesn't that mean that T5 'plays' rather differently than CT?

My only point is that while there are useful similarities between CT and T5, there may also be some significant differences ... but correct me if I am wrong.

You're right on that account, the task system is different; I'd say the game trades off its balance differently, opening up the DMs you take for tasks, but simplifying the math. The rules tend to harmonize: range-based tasks all tend to work similarly, whether you're firing a laser pistol, firing a bay weapon, or moving an object telekenetically (range=difficulty). A few other things open up that may be difficult to do with CT.

One 'genetic' aspect that T5 shares with LBB1-3 is that detail tends to stop at the playable level.

However, the skill comments, plus the items noted by Mike, are the same direction that T5 went:

Character generation has special duty lines;
Armor reduces damage;
Personal combat favors small unit tactics rather than a free-for-all.
Range bands are part of combat (space and personal).
There's a common equipment section, along with guidelines on how to describe equipment that's not in the book;
Ship design is like an LBB2 version of MegaTraveller ship design, or maybe a MegaTraveller version of LBB2 (how do I describe it in one line of text?);
There is a vehicles section, and they're part of personal combat.
The TL chart is revised (a bit), and system generation, while not LBB6 or WBH, is more involved than LBB3.

 

[HG_B]

While this makes perfect sense, it will pretty much eliminate the whole 'frontier life in space' branch of space opera ... there will be no 'carving a homestead out of the wilderness' unless the 'wilderness' is an airless rock ball (with cows in vacc suits? o: ).

The missing KEY mods are;

1) Native sentient population? (Y/N)
2) If NO, how many centuries of colonization and, type of colony.

 

[BytePro]

Just because a place is environmentally idyllic or 'safe' very often has little to do with what humans do...

How many mass population regions are in less than ideal climate zones that experience more extreme heat, winters, and/or rains.

How many mass population areas are located adjacent to known volcanoes and earthquake prone regions - in addition to monsoons, hurricanes and subject to tidal waves.

History, politics, resources and ability to get places all factor in and probably generally more often than whether a place makes sense because of its environment.

Planets are going to be populated as much (if not more so) based on being profitable, strategically positioned, and culturally, politically, and historically established. In other words, pretty darn randomly if one takes a 'snapshot' after the fact.

 

[robject]

Though perhaps not quite in the spirit of the original poster, here's my recommendation.

Give CT a tune-up by re-using elements of Traveller5.

Guns, vehicles, robots, genetics, and equipment can be taken directly from T5 and used in CT.

Mainworld gen and system gen can of course be plugged into CT directly. That part of Traveller is highly decoupled from the rest of the game, after all.

Components of T5 ship design missing from Book 2 and High Guard could be bolted on. Although in the case of Book 2, I would recommend replacing it with T5 ACS completely. Very little is lost, and a lot gained.

Armor... well, if CT moves to a model where damage is absorbed by armor, then T5 armor could be used as-is. Otherwise, there's no point in using T5 armor with CT.

Characters can't be used directly, because skill levels work differently. Mappings would have to be devised... not a pretty sight.

 

[HG_B]

Just because a place is environmentally idyllic or 'safe' very often has little to do with what humans do...

Where on Earth is a large place that is, " idyllic or 'safe'"?

 

[hdan]

Where on Earth is a large place that is, " idyllic or 'safe'"?

I guess there was that place where Alf the sacred river ran through caverns measureless to man down to a sunless sea, but even that's been developed these days.

 

[HG_B]

I guess there was that place where Alf the sacred river ran through caverns measureless to man down to a sunless sea, but even that's been developed these days.

I saw that place. Condo's & strip malls. :rofl: