Imperial Counts and Counties.

[talos402000]

I've often wondered why Counts and Viscounts are so often ignored when discussing the Imperial government or Nobility. Usually, people just talk about sub sector Dukes like their the only Imperial Nobles in the Sector. And it was my understanding that the County was the lowest level of Imperial government.

So why is the role of Counts and Counties so often ignored?

 

[mike wightman]

Imperial government begins at the subsector level with the subsector duke.

Individual worlds, and even entire systems, are free to govern themselves as they
desire, provided that ultimate power is always accorded the Imperium. Interstellar
government begins at the subsector level - on one world designated the subsector
capital. The ruling figure at the subsector capital is a high-ranking noble selected
by higher levels of government. This duke has a free hand in government, and is
subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors. But at the same time, the duke
owes fealty to the higher levels of government, ultimately to the Emperor himself.

 

[talos402000]

If that is true, then what role do Counts and Viscounts play INYTU?

 

[Orr]

So why is the role of Counts and Counties so often ignored?

It's almost as if GDW forgot about them. They're right there in Book 1, but all the write-ups after that seemed to ignore them. You'd read about a title or two, but AFAIK there wasn't much about what they actually did.

IIRC, LKW included counts and viscounts in GT Nobles at Mr. Miller's direction and then provided some roles for them. In my settings, they work something like a vice-duke. They're tasked with handling groups of worlds which don't have marquises.

 

[McPerth]

If that is true, then what role do Counts and Viscounts play INYTU?

As I understand it, they act as Imperial representatives on the planets in their fiefs (and, BTW, so could be said about Barons and Marquis), without true execturive power (unless their office gives them it), but reporting to the subsector Duke.

OTOH, they are assumed to be in the subsector Imperial Counsel (or however is called the advisory body for the Duke, akin of a local moot), and, according some sources, this noblity forms the body of the Imperial infrastructure (as the MoJ, to give you an example).

 

[mike wightman]

Not everything in 77 CT made it into the 3I setting...

Imperial nobles below the rank of duke have no authority, local world leaders may treat them as ambassadors to the duke, or they may own land on those worlds that effectively makes them Imperial territory on a world run by a different government.

I tend to link lower nobles with Imperial starports.

My personal view is that the closer you get to the Imperial core sectors you get the more worlds are owned by the Imperium and hence the lower ranks of nobles may have considerable estates, but on the frontier as represented by the Spinward Marches local world autonomy is a given - although the Imperium is moving for more direct rule of certain systems. Worlds settled by the ministry of colonisation are likely to be owned by the imperium

 

[Condottiere]

The hierarchy isn't that well organized.

Could be the heirs apparent to local duke, getting some practical experience in governing, much like the Prince of Spacewales.

 

[flykiller]

So why is the role of Counts and Counties so often ignored?

because players want to feel important and so take their characters straight to the top.

what role do Counts and Viscounts play INYTU?

barons are the imperium on any world. viscounts are the imperium on any j1-capable world, counts on any j2-3-capable world, marquis' on any j4+ world, dukes sectors - I have no subsectors. thus "the spinward marches". knights and squires run support services and lesser stations.

comodore is ss13 minimum, rear admiral ss14 minimum, etc.

The hierarchy isn't that well organized.

(slaps forehead) excellent observation, should have been obvious. there's no way it could be well-organized.

 

[vegas]

I have no subsectors.

Interesting change. Lots to be said for it. But what then is the "subsector navy" IYTU? Is it a Marquis' navy? Or is it the reserves in that sector? Something else?

 

[GypsyComet]

what role do Counts and Viscounts play INYTU?

Assuming we are talking about the Landed nobility, or what GT called "High" nobles, the explicit task of all nobles from Baron up is the economic development of their territory, as implied by T5 (which assigns those below Duke on the basis of certain trade codes as a short hand for stages of development). Landed Counts and Viscounts are powerful people, despite not having much direct pull with the Navy, as they are landlords across large swaths of multiple worlds. What they choose to do with that land is up to them, but their stewardship is also their resume' for the next step up, should a Duke need replacing.

because players want to feel important and so take their characters straight to the top.

That's what the other types of nobles are for. Sector and Subsector Dukes have little time for gallivanting, except under extraordinary circumstances, but the retired Chairman of the Subsector Reserve Bank, or a former Sector Fleet Castellan, or just some shmuck who's family have had the rank but no real position for several generations? Those guys are PC material.

barons are the imperium on any world.

Note that Marc changed this with T5. There is now an assigned Knight on every member world that isn't interdicted or barren, while Barons are assigned to worlds with a bit more potential. You can see it in the sector listings resident at Traveller Map.

 

[aramis]

If that is true, then what role do Counts and Viscounts play INYTU?

Counts, Viscounts, and Barons of various worlds form the subsector moot, serve on the subsector committees, and fill subsector ministries, as well as providing local appellate to imperial official and imperial oversight of local government.

Some terms:
Fief — lands ruled by a noble
See — Lands which the Noble is acclaimed of, but which are not rule
Breaking this down...
Each Subsector fief is a ducal or county demesne (his personal fief) plus a see of the whole subsector, plus heading the subsector goverment.

The subsector canonically has a moot comprised of the nobles of the subsector

The subsector canonically has high courts. (Appeals are made to the local nobles, who may pass them on to the high courts. High crimes are charged directly through the local noble.) To be an officer of said court, one must have at least a knighthood (canonical).

The subsector has some oversight over local ministries. Dual authority, just like the Navy.

The Subsector Government has the numbered reserve fleet. It answers directly to the subsector noble, and he probably appoints secretaries over Naval and Marine components, as well as an intelligence secretary. (5FW boardgame library data implies.) There are likely also Secretaries of Trade, Calendar Compliance, Colonization, Justice, and Communications. Each has probably small bureaucracy.

The Subsector Moot canonically makes the laws for the subsector, with the voice of the Duke being essential to passage.

Canonically, some subsectors are ruled by counts, instead.
A few subsectors are subject to other subsectors; they are fully part of the other subsector's moot and government.

On their see world, the world nobles have pretty much free reign to investigate, and serve notice on behalf of the subsector government, violations of imperial law and sector or subsector policies and laws. They cannot impose sentence; they present their findings to the moot or the courts. It's up to the local world whether their investigations may also be served to local courts for local violations; if nothing else, local prosecutors and police generally will take into advisement anything the Noble has investigated for further scruitiny.

Local nobles may raise Huscarles - troops trained locally, but equipped to whatever standard the Noble can afford, often to IM or IA standards, seldom more than a light regiment. (Norris' Huscarles are the second largest such unit in the 3I... at a reinforced regiment.) These platoon to Battalion level units usually are spit-n-polish affairs for active duty troops seconded. Some are crack fighting units comprised of high skill troopers. If nothing else, the troops tend to be senior - line troops are E3, and NCO slots are up one grade from expected, if not two. You might even see a Platoon lead by a Captain with a Sergeant Major as his PltSgt... and every trooper a 2-term corporal or buck sergeant. Huscarles vary wildly in strength and organization.
IMTU, the Count of Regni, on Regina/Regina, has a "regiment" of huscarles... It's organized with short squads {5 man}, 3 squad platoons {17 men 1 officer}, 2 platoon companies {36 men, 5 officer}, 2 company battalions {75 men, 15 officer} and the regiment is 3 battalions {230 men, 50 officer}. It really is a small Battalion in numbers... but it's all TL-15 IM grav-belted Battledress equipped infantry, alternating between security at Regni Downport and the County Palace. In a pinch, they can be trebled with IA troops to make a proper light regiment. They're officially a Military Police Regiment...

Further, the various fief-hexes can be important elements.
IMTU, they're usually the downports.
IMTU, Regni Downport is the fief demesne of the Count of Regni.
The High Port is one of the hexes of the Duke of Regina's fief. As are the two other imperial downports. And one of the other moons of Assinoboia, in total.

Likewise, the starports of Terra. AECO is the planetary Count, Phoenix is the Viscount of Phoenix, Adak is the Baron Adak's, and Baikonur is the Baron Baikonur's. Guyana, China, and Wester Australia are knightly port-fiefs.

 

[McPerth]

And of course, never forget those high nobles have a (usually delegated) vote in the Imperial Moot, as few as true incidence in their lives may be...

 

[mike wightman]

Where in canon do we find the subsector moot?

 

[MThompson016]

Where in canon do we find the subsector moot?

GT TNS reports refer to a "Duchy Senate" in the Alderamin subsector of the Solomani Rim for the purpose of selecting a new duke. It starts with one dated marked Shululsish/Solomani Rim 320-1120.

It's also mentioned in GT Nobles. However, that model of nobility has been overridden in greater Traveller continuity by T5 :CoW:

 

[Garnfellow]

The subsector canonically has a moot comprised of the nobles of the subsector

I think this is a great idea, but I don't think there's much canonical support for it. The only references I can find to the specific term "subsector moot" are from old posts you've made here, and in those you pretty clearly labeled it as an "IMTU" thing.

GURPS Traveller: Nobles does have a section on "Local Assemblies":

Some sectors and subsectors have local assemblies, similar to the Imperial Moot but on a smaller scale. For example, the Spinward Marches sector has a Senate that meets at the sector capital at Mora. Custom dictates that these local assemblies may not be called moots, in order to avoid confusion with the Imperial Moot. Just as the duties of these lesser assemblies are more restricted than those of the Moot (they cover a smaller area), they also carry less prestige (73).

 

[GypsyComet]

I think the Subsector or Sector Moot would be a matter of Ducal preference and local tradition. Each will be different, some will be absent. It is, however, a natural outgrowth of the given noble arrangement that the Dukes will call their subordinates to consult en mass periodically.

The idea that a local Moot has the power to elect a Duke is, on the other hand, ridiculous. The Zhodani work that way, but not the Imperium.

 

[McPerth]

I think this is a great idea, but I don't think there's much canonical support for it. The only references I can find to the specific term "subsector moot" are from old posts you've made here, and in those you pretty clearly labeled it as an "IMTU" thing.

GURPS Traveller: Nobles does have a section on "Local Assemblies":

I rmeember a MT scenario, on a challenge IIRC, where one noble that had to attend the assembly of Regina was kidnapted, but I don't remember if this assembly is called subsector moot, if the name is what is put in question here.

I'm not sure about its canonicity, though, as it made some references to IRIS, that it's not canonical itself...

 

[GypsyComet]

it made some references to IRIS, that it's not canonical itself...

IRIS is Canon as presented in the TAS News items and Survival Margin. The original article, clearly labeled as a variant, is what remains non-Canon. The "organization" sprung from whole cloth during the Rebellion, attempted the "super secret" con to claim legitimacy, and was used by Strephon to remove himself from the war. Whether that was their goal as a Lucanist group, or their failure as a Varianist group, we will never know.

 

[flykiller]

I have no subsectors.

But what then is the "subsector navy" IYTU? Is it a Marquis' navy?

yes, more specifically there are marches and march navies. marches are generally delimited by the max jump for the tech level of the world on which the march is based, so the mora/trin/rhylanor/glisten marches extend 6 parsecs from those worlds. lesser regions are counties - jewell, regina, equus, etc. other regions may be protectorates, naval administrates (such as the five sisters district), or otherwise administered/controlled/dominated/watched.

subsector moot

that sounds great. surely every march/county (and district of any description) will have an assembly of sub-nobility / corporations / religious authority / interested parties (such as player characters)?

barons are the imperium on any world.

Note that Marc changed this with T5.

(shrug)

 

[vegas]

yes, more specifically there are marches and march navies. marches are generally delimited by the max jump for the tech level of the world on which the march is based, so the mora/trin/rhylanor/glisten marches extend 6 parsecs from those worlds. lesser regions are counties - jewell, regina, equus, etc. other regions may be protectorates, naval administrates (such as the five sisters district), or otherwise administered/controlled/dominated/watched.

I think I like this idea. It is more messy and realistic, yet still pretty simple to recursively implement. I think I'll steal it.

But I'm leaving Counts over Marquis. I guess I'm still a Traveller-traditionalist.

that sounds great. surely every march/county (and district of any description) will have an assembly of sub-nobility / corporations / religious authority / interested parties (such as player characters)?

Meh.

I think every Duke should have a court upon which interested parties would call, (courtiers gotta have something to do) but I don't think every subsector needs a moot/senate/call-it-what-you-will. That would be way too much democracy for a government that clearly isn't.

Sure, there can be an assembly now and then; the mob boss calls a meeting of the families, but that is not a moot. IMHO.