Newbie curious about why Zhodani Consolate and Imperial forces are opposed

[Ulsyus]

On the surface and to outsiders, the Zhodani often seem to be a very serene and non-argumentative people. Little dissent occurs and few arguments are ever observed until... One begins to attend Supreme Council, where plenty of disagreements and arguments occur with great regularity.

Plus, given the factions in Zho politics, a coalition of the Anti-Imperial & Expansionist parties can lead to some pretty drastic consequences for Imperials in the Spinward Marches.

The Zho’s can’t be purveyors of sweetness and light, seeing as they have a non-democratic system where the vast majority of the population have no say in the government nor its direction, though I suppose the same goes for the 3I as well.

 

[Spinward Flow]

<<Desire to know more intensifies>>

Here's a fun little mental exercise, using Solomani history to provide an analogous model of the effects of Zhodani society.
Look at the imperial examination as a requirement to become a bureaucratic official in the government of multiple dynasties in imperial China.

Imperial Examination

Here's some selected quotes from the article on the scholar bureaucrat official that the exam system created, which essentially filtered the "best of society" towards the top of the government.

From the Song dynasty onward, the examinations played the primary role in selecting scholar-officials, who formed the literati elite of society.

And this quote about the impact of the examination system seems particularly relevant given what I wrote in Post #18 of this thread.

The original purpose of the imperial examinations as they were implemented during the Sui dynasty was to strike a blow against the hereditary aristocracy

If you're paying attention, you can see additional parallels with the Zhodani system of selecting a ruling elite by examination of merit, rather than relying on hereditary as the decisive factor.

In addition, the number of graduates were not only small, but also formed their own clique in the government based around the examiners and the men they passed.

Efforts were made to break the link between examiner and examinee, removing another factor contributing to the formation of scholar bureaucrat cliques. While the influence of certain scholar officials never disappeared, they no longer held any influence in organizing men.

By introducing the Imperial Examination system in historic (Solomani) China, it became possible (theoretically) for ANYONE to become a government official, provided they could pass the exam ... which then helped open up the pool of candidates beyond just a few aristocratic families which had accumulated significant wealth and reputation.

Don't get me wrong(!) ... the aristocratic families still had a LARGE advantage in schooling and tutoring of their children (which they could afford), but passing the Imperial Examination by the descendants of aristocratic families was no longer guaranteed. They no longer had a "lock" on power and position within the governing of the state just by virtue of being aristocratic families. The deck was still stacked in their favor, but the "guarantee" of success was removed.



It's not a directly 1:1 type of situation, but using an exam to determine who is the "best and brightest" (and most educated) to be inducted into the highest rungs of the social ladder has precedents in Solomani history (if you know where to look, and what to look for). The Solomani dynasties in China did so using an academic examination to determine who was worthy of becoming a civil servant (and thus put on the "gravy train" for life). The Zhodani do something that is analogous in purpose, except they use a psionic power exam to achieve the same goal, because their society is organized around psionics being a ubiquitous part of their culture and identity.



Strong people use their muscles.
Smart people use their brains.
REALLY SMART people use ... OTHER PEOPLE.



Besides, think of the difference in childish taunts that children are prone to engaging in so as to establish their own hierarchy and pecking order.

"My dad can beat up your dad!"

Obviously, this is an appeal to physical prowess in a "might makes right" direction.

Now imagine the same TYPE of taunt being thrown around in Zhodani society.

"My dad can outthink your dad!"

Still an appeal in the "might makes right" direction, but the claim to dominance is a mental (psionic) one, rather than a physical (body) one. Still childish, of course ... but also not quite as likely to be automatically assumed as a true statement, when psionics are added into the mix. Hard to tell how psionically "gifted" someone is, just by looking at their body.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Another view is from Marc Miller himself from a panel years ago (see link in my sig). His take is there can not be reconciliation because of the basic differences in the common Imperial citizen vs. common Consulate citizen. Imperials like their privacy of thought and individualism and to some extent this is built into the general hands off approach to planetary governments by the larger Imperial government. The Consulate is more uniform, and uniformly intrusive due to the use of psionics via the Thought Police. They re-educate the disgruntled and the individualist. After millennia the common Zhodani look to their leaders first.

Then there is that chapter in Agent of the Imperium where Marc shows just how nefarious the Zho's can be...

 

[Condottiere]

There were/are three ways to getting on top in China.

Memorizing someone's recorded musings, amusing the Emperor, and/or getting castrated.

 

[Krikkitone]

One of the fundamental differences between the Third Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate boils down to ... Hereditary Aristocracy vs Individual Meritocracy ... if you can believe that.

Think about it.



In the Third Imperium, what is required to become an imperial noble at the top of society?
Short Answer: Social Standing.
Slightly Longer Answer: Hereditary Social Standing ... meaning that you need to "choose your parents wisely" (or words to that effect), in order to be "born on third base" before scoring a home run (essentially).

Every member world of the Third Imperium needs a Knight (in post) to represent that world in subsector/sector/domain/imperial politics, but as you advance up the Social Standing ladder, there are fewer and fewer postings at the rank of Baron, Count, etc. all the way up to Duke ... so as your Social Standing rises, the "club" gets more and more exclusive simply because there are fewer and fewer positions to go around, yielding an essentially feudal hierarchy that calcifies over time into a hereditary aristocracy (your children are born at -1 Social Standing to their parent(s)). So while there is SOME social mobility possible through individual merits and achievements, truly "joining the club of aristocracy" is the work of generations, not necessarily of individuals.

So although there is a limited amount of "churn" in the ranks of the imperial nobility, there is enough "friction" involved to put a lot of emphasis and advantage on incumbency ... which then results in family dynasties of aristocratic privilege that are able to perpetuate their wealth and power relatively easily, compared to an "upstart challenger" who has raised their Social Standing through their own actions during their own lifetime. Remember, being posted somewhere as an imperial NOBLE is a Career Choice(!) ... not just a matter of merely buffing your Social Standing stat (which makes you an "honorary noble" rather than one posted to a position of responsibility representing the Emperor to specific worlds as a vassal to the Third Imperium). This then helps with stability by preventing too much turnover (churn) within a single generation and protects the incumbency of particular families and dynasties that can accumulate wealth and power unto themselves (and all the corruption of purpose that implies).



Compare that to the Zhodani Consulate. What is required to become an Intendant at the top of society?
Short Answer: Psionic Power.
Slightly Longer Answer: Because psionic power is NOT hereditary(!) ... the most privileged in society CAN BE ANYONE FROM ANY FAMILY ... they just need to be psionically gifted and powerful.

This means that the "upper crust" of Zhodani society has a TREMENDOUS amount of "churn" in the ranks, effectively preventing the sort of dynastic hereditary strategy of accumulating wealth and power with each succeeding generation that is so common as to be expected (and widely accepted!) in Imperial society. Social privileges are conferred upon the "worthy" (measured individually) rather than upon the "hereditary" (who were your parents?). It's a meritocratic rather than a dynastic system, which privileges the importance of psionic power and skills.

"A sound soul dwells within a sound mind and a sound body."

Can you see how foundational and fundamentally at odds such concepts of societal organization are?

There IS NO WAY to reconcile the underlying structures of these radically different ideals of hierarchy and merit.

Of course the two cultures would clash and be at odds with each other ... even before adding in the wildcard of competitive advantage that psionics training brings to the table, such that a (so called) "level playing field" between the two parties isn't even meaningfully an option in high level negotiations.


THIS.
And thus the pattern was set for centuries of hostilities over successive generations, due to irreconcilable differences of ideas about individual merit vs heredity privilege.

Intendants are not the top of Zhodani society…They are like Imperial Knights (achieved by merit mostly). The top of Zhodani society (like imperial society) is hereditary nobility. Notably Zhodani Nobles are the only ones not regularly getting randomly scanned by the Morality Police.

 

[Ulsyus]

Only Psi 9+ allows movement from the Prole to the Intendant class; when a Prole child is tested and found to have such a high Psionic Strength, they are adopted into an Intendant family and raised as an Intendant. Note that children of Intendants and Nobles who have Psi 9− still receive psionic training and inherit their parents’ Social Standing.

Would there be an equivalent in general 3I culture where a lower SOC child was simply taken from their family and adopted into a higher-class family?
Also note the reference to the children of nobles - despite low Psi strength they're still nobles. It's only the Intendant class that is predicated on high Psi strength. Nobles might have the social heft to keep most of their family power, but even they may prune their family trees of lines that fail to produce notable psi's after a couple of generations. The squibs are out!

Marriage between different classes is illegal; liaisons do occur but (especially Prole/Noble) are socially disapproved of (any children that result are born into the mother’s caste, though of course children of Proles who test high for Psionic Strength become Intendants).

...is another example of how despite its surface peace and stability, the upper class in the Consulate will preserve the exceptionality of their power and prestige. I'm sure however that the prole mother of a child born to a noble father, who was then adopted by an Intendant family because of high psi strength, would be assisted in adjusting her attitude so that she was selflessly happy for her soon-to-be-with help-forgotten child of a soon-to-be-with-help-forgotten tryst with said noble father. Gosh darn it, they're so luck those Joes, they just get to be so darn happy!?!

 

[Condottiere]

We used to send knightly aspirants to foster as pages and squires.

 

[Ulsyus]

We used to send knightly aspirants to foster as pages and squires.

But not to be adopted into their knight's family never to return to their own. The Romans followed that sort of adoption practice in the Republican era AFAIK, but I'm not sure of other cultures that simply adopted children of promise out as a matter of course.

 

[Krikkitone]

Would there be an equivalent in general 3I culture where a lower SOC child was simply taken from their family and adopted into a higher-class family?
Also note the reference to the children of nobles - despite low Psi strength they're still nobles. It's only the Intendant class that is predicated on high Psi strength. Nobles might have the social heft to keep most of their family power, but even they may prune their family trees of lines that fail to produce notable psi's after a couple of generations. The squibs are out!



...is another example of how despite its surface peace and stability, the upper class in the Consulate will preserve the exceptionality of their power and prestige. I'm sure however that the prole mother of a child born to a noble father, who was then adopted by an Intendant family because of high psi strength, would be assisted in adjusting her attitude so that she was selflessly happy for her soon-to-be-with help-forgotten child of a soon-to-be-with-help-forgotten tryst with said noble father. Gosh darn it, they're so luck those Joes, they just get to be so darn happy!?!

Not sure how much pruning necessarily goes on. However, I could see a mild eugenics where Nobles/Intendants with high Psi are socially and internally encouraged to only have more kids, but those No Psi branches tend to be slightly less than replacement rate. (better chance for them to get the resources to become a good match for the newly elevated Intendant)

 

[Condottiere]

There's the Japanese custom of getting their heiress daughter to marry a promising employee, in order to continue the family business.

The employee gets adopted, or adopts the wife's family name.

The Japanese (possibly the Chinese), and the Romans can adopt a distant relative to become the heir, if they didn't manage to produce one on their own.

 

[Ulsyus]

Not sure how much pruning necessarily goes on. However, I could see a mild eugenics where Nobles/Intendants with high Psi are socially and internally encouraged to only have more kids, but those No Psi branches tend to be slightly less than replacement rate. (better chance for them to get the resources to become a good match for the newly elevated Intendant)

"You can't be useful to the family by having children yourselves, but if you're productive and of great assistance then you'll lead envious lives. You'll also live on through the nieces and nephews you influence through your diligence and good works."

It'd work for some. Others who didn't naturally or normally have the same level of selflessness or diligence might just find themselves influenced so by their high-psi family members. After a while, that practice would become normalised, and low-psi members of noble families would just naturally become monkish contributors to the family's fortunes. Diligent and loyal squibs.

 

[Condottiere]

Sounds like a baboon troop.

 

[Ulsyus]

Sounds like a baboon troop.

Why?

 

[Condottiere]

I'm not sure which is the more appropriate description, proven or successful.

All the proven male baboons will tend to hoard the troop's resources, and the unproven ones will get to the opportunity to become proven, by concentrating on patrolling, and being first responders.

 

[Spinward Flow]

With respect to Zhodani culture, there's another wildcard factor at play.
Just because someone has high psionic strength doesn't mean they'll have good STEM or Leadership skills ... or any number of other skills and specializations that are "too useful" in a technological society.

Even the psi null can still contribute meaningfully to the broader society in ways that the psi gifted cannot.
It's a fundamental error of judgement to simply assume (on the society/social cohesion level):

• These are the "bad guys" and you kill them
• These are the "good guys" and you cheer for them

Reality tends to be ... more nuanced than that (except during wartime, or in the lead up to wartime...).

Consider that there are plenty of tasks and skills that require muscle power, or dexterity, or endurance, or years of training to do well. Sure, psionics might be "nice to have" on top of any of those things, but how directly useful is psionic strength to a research astronomer (for example)? Being a research astronomer requires a lot of things (intelligence, education, training, tools, etc.) but psionic strength isn't all that high on the list of requirements. Granted, psionic strength is "nice to have" but it isn't NECESSARY to fulfill that specialized role in the broader society.



So you can't just assume "this one is psionically weak, so they'll never amount to anything."

That would be akin to thinking that Steven Hawking could never contribute anything to humaniti simply because he was physically disabled for most of his life. Granted, Steven Hawking was never going to win an athletic competition in later life ... but athletic prowess wasn't his "strong suit" to begin with. Deciding to "get rid of him" because of his physical disability would have been a tremendous loss to all of humaniti.



My point being that the "statesmen and leaders" of Zhodani society may be required to be psionically powerful, but that doesn't prevent the psionically "underperforming" to achieve greatness and respect in other fields of endeavor in their society. Wise intendants in leadership roles would know this.

You don't "throw away" the truly gifted just because they don't tick all of your preferred boxes for "perfection" in your society's eyes.



For an historical example/precedent, consider this.
Would the early Solomani space race have ended differently if the prevailing attitudes about race and class had been more strictly enforced such that the black women of the West Computing Group at NASA Langley had been deemed "unfit" to be employed by NASA as Computers?

I can rather easily argue that without the women of the West Computing Group and their contributions the NASA space program during the (first) space race ... NASA would have failed to reach orbit, let alone Luna, the natural satellite of Terra.

Don't believe me?
There's a 2D movie about it, called ... Hidden Figures.

WISE leadership makes the best use of ALL of their people ... not just the chosen few ... because "wasting people" is EXPENSIVE in the long run for a society, compared to the alternative.

 

[mike wightman]

Which makes me wonder if the Zhodani are not missing a trick by not allowing psi 7 into the intendent caste.
A prole with psi 7 could learn teleportation and teleport themselves and cloths.

The Zhodani can train psi rating, and they can even train specific talents.

A prole with psi 7 if trained for a couple of terms could be a psi 9 teleporter...

 

[Condottiere]

There's probably gatekeeping going on by vested interests, to limit number of intendants to favoured candidates, or those with great potential.

As regards Zhodani with useful skills or insights, that might be limited to the noble caste, since they have the leisure and resources to develop them.

 

[Spinward Flow]

There's probably gatekeeping going on by vested interests, to limit number of intendants to favoured candidates, or those with great potential.

This is almost certainly true.
There has never been a PURELY meritocratic system that hasn't been attacked by interests determined to subvert and co-opt it to serve themselves (reducing the "purity" of the meritocratic system in order to bias it towards themselves).

As regards Zhodani with useful skills or insights, that might be limited to the noble caste, since they have the leisure and resources to develop them.

I'm not as convinced that such a simplistic approach would be the way things work.
There are undoubtedly going to be pockets of thought where such attitudes hold true ... but as a generalized statement that applies everywhere, not so much.

In other words, I suspect that you're "painting with too broad a brush" with your assertion.
I'm thinking that the "reality" of Zhodani society would be more nuanced, varied and "textured" than the simplistic declaration you're making.

 

[McPerth]

However, I could see a mild eugenics where Nobles/Intendants with high Psi are socially and internally encouraged to only have more kids, but those No Psi branches tend to be slightly less than replacement rate.

According most sources (at leqst before T5, not so sure there for what I've read in this board) this wouldn't work, as psionic capacity is not hereditary. This is one of the basis of the Zhodani society...

With respect to Zhodani culture, there's another wildcard factor at play.
Just because someone has high psionic strength doesn't mean they'll have good STEM or Leadership skills ... or any number of other skills and specializations that are "too useful" in a technological society.

Even the psi null can still contribute meaningfully to the broader society in ways that the psi gifted cannot.
It's a fundamental error of judgement to simply assume (on the society/social cohesion level):

• These are the "bad guys" and you kill them
• These are the "good guys" and you cheer for them

Reality tends to be ... more nuanced than that (except during wartime, or in the lead up to wartime...).

Consider that there are plenty of tasks and skills that require muscle power, or dexterity, or endurance, or years of training to do well. Sure, psionics might be "nice to have" on top of any of those things, but how directly useful is psionic strength to a research astronomer (for example)? Being a research astronomer requires a lot of things (intelligence, education, training, tools, etc.) but psionic strength isn't all that high on the list of requirements. Granted, psionic strength is "nice to have" but it isn't NECESSARY to fulfill that specialized role in the broader society.



So you can't just assume "this one is psionically weak, so they'll never amount to anything."

That would be akin to thinking that Steven Hawking could never contribute anything to humaniti simply because he was physically disabled for most of his life. Granted, Steven Hawking was never going to win an athletic competition in later life ... but athletic prowess wasn't his "strong suit" to begin with. Deciding to "get rid of him" because of his physical disability would have been a tremendous loss to all of humaniti.



My point being that the "statesmen and leaders" of Zhodani society may be required to be psionically powerful, but that doesn't prevent the psionically "underperforming" to achieve greatness and respect in other fields of endeavor in their society. Wise intendants in leadership roles would know this.

You don't "throw away" the truly gifted just because they don't tick all of your preferred boxes for "perfection" in your society's eyes.

You seem to assume only nobles and intendents may reach high responsibility positions, but that'snot how Zhodani work...

A prole may reach high rank, albeit nobles/intendants have advantage, as trhey aready start as officers/warrant officers.

See CT:AM4. a noble/intendent starts as offcer/warrant officer, but a prole may be promothed (through OCS in mercenary/HG system¹, by positioning in Basic CharGen) and raise from there to be brass rank. Only high Government and Tavrchedl' are vetoed to them.

CT:AM4, page 24:

Any character may be promoted to the highest available ranks, reglardless of Social Standing, except: proles and intendants in Government <snip>

OTOH, a noble/intendant with no useful skills in one field will be assigned in another one. He may not be good for command, but be give a post in teaching (I believe most children training are psionics, so that they can detect the children's interests and capacities, to lead through them), administration, medical, whatever they can serve the best 8and probably be happier, as you're happier if you work in what you ar good at, as you feel more successful).

I'd suggest people to read the threads All Things Zhodani and Zodani Proles for more about my (and others') oppinions about them...


Note 1: I assume the General Assignment table note (CT/AM4 page 32) regarding this table to be used only by Officers (O0 toO10) to be an errata and allowing enlisted to also use it, just treating Command and Staff as unit, as does LBB4, as otherways having a table for Enlisted and NCOs Special Duty (where OCS is) is moot.

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall the Zhodani, there's only one way of social mobility.

I would guess that non noble scientists and engineers career ladders probably look about the same as a military career, useful for achieving a specific goal, under noble supervision.