Imperial Law

[flykiller]

I ask the questions because the proposed tenets sound very high-maintenance - sort of like what is being attempted in iraq. 'course, you're right, the referee does set things as he sees fit.

imtu imperial jurisdiction pretty much ends at the starport gate. each world is free to pursue its own unique character, or to embrace and absorb the general culture of the imperium, or to do something in-between.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by flykiller:
I ask the questions because the proposed tenets sound very high-maintenance - sort of like what is being attempted in iraq. 'course, you're right, the referee does set things as he sees fit.

Ok, I'll toss out my ignorance. What do you mean by "property rights tenets"? (Did you meant tenants? If so, I still don't know what it means . . . help me out, my google-fu is shot right at the moment.)

Originally posted by flykiller:
imtu imperial jurisdiction pretty much ends at the starport gate. each world is free to pursue its own unique character, or to embrace and absorb the general culture of the imperium, or to do something in-between.

IMTU as well, as long as the world adheres to LMWA.

Honestly, for me, the whole LMWA laws and monitoring and enforcement ideas came about from asking myself questions about basic canon statements made about sohpont rights.

If the Imperium promised something like "freedom from slavery", what would that mean if there was no "freedom from fear of assualt or death"? I decided it would mean nothing, and be seen by most everyone who heard it to mean nothing as well. Why? Although there is great value in not being owned, if the world leaders and their gun-toting cronies come along and laser you into bacon arbitrarily . . . or drags your daughters (or wife or sons or you) off to be raped (for whatever reason, to satisfy the lusts of the sons of the powerful, as "comfort women/military-sex-slaves") . . . well, these things are, in many ways, just as bad and unjust and downright evil as being enslaved.

I figured that Cleon I probably saw a lot of the above during his huge journey through space.

"-34: Cleon Zhunastu begins a sabbatical tour of the rimward frontier, from Vland to Amdukan and Antares sectors and back to Sylea. Milieu 0 Campaign, Imperium Games, 1996, p. 75."

While journeying, his wealth and blue-blooded upbringing saw him well greeted almost everywhere he went. I decided that during these times he had several accidental opportunities to see things no human with a conscience ever should. Worlds where it was legal for the ruling class to select whomever they wished from the lower classes to be raped, tortured, murdered, whatever. Overpopulated worlds where forced suicide was law. Underpopulated worlds where forced sacrifice for food purposes was the law. Worlds where the megolomaniacal set down laws that made their people weave their way through a life twisted and macabe, only to face random death in horrific manners. All on, say, maybe a dozen of all the worlds he visited. On a much larger set of worlds, though, he encountered a much more common theme of downtrodden lower class workers, under crushing tax and manual labor weights, who toiled endlessly for nothing save the betterment of a few posturing dictators. Overall, although he found much that was valuable in helping him plan his campaigns for Empire, the trip, he felt, was a rather depressing report on the state of humanity in general.

Cleon came through all this and decided over the course of the next several years that in his upcoming Empire, the worst of the worst wasn't going to happen, and anyone who didn't like it could face the might of the Imperial Legions he was going to shape and deploy to make his Empire happen. Notably, though, he didn't do much of anything to improve workers rights, just general over-all sophont rights.

The Imperial Human Rights Accord and the Justice Entitlement were *great* selling points for diplomats, as it gave the Imperium of the time a moral high ground.

Those worlds that would be most impacted, those that lived by their violence towards sophonts and felt that obeying the Justice Entilement would require re-wiring their leadership structure to a pointless extent, these were the worlds that were "brought into the fold" during the Pacifications.

 

[flykiller]

Ok, I'll toss out my ignorance. What do you mean by "property rights tenets"?

yeah, I guess I do sound like I'm baiting. I don't mean to, I'm just being short.

property rights are the basis for most other rights. if a man owns nothing, and is not permitted to own anything, but rather the state owns and disposes of all property, then a man is a slave in reality if not legally. if the imperium is to oppose slavery it will have to support property rights.

but many religions, cultures, and societies do not accept the notion of property. one is expected to share, or children are viewed as investments, or emminent domain is very strong, or the ideal desired lifestyle is that of a bandit. most cultures even if they accept property hold that property rights are superceded by any number of other rights or obligations or duties or even sheer force. in most times and places the notion of property and its attendent freedom is thin.

unless it takes a lax attitude and goes after only egregious cases the imperium will have a constant uphill battle on its hands opposing slavery and upholding property rights.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />imtu imperial jurisdiction pretty much ends at the starport gate. each world is free to pursue its own unique character, or to embrace and absorb the general culture of the imperium, or to do something in-between.

IMTU as well, as long as the world adheres to LMWA.

Honestly, for me, the whole LMWA laws and monitoring and enforcement ideas came about from asking myself questions about basic canon statements made about sohpont rights.</font>[/QUOTE]some aspects of canon are ... hasty. as game referee one may choose one's path and handwave anything, but I have trouble with the idea of universal sophont rights in a game that is supposed to give the ocassional nod to reality. the tenets, as proposed, would require significant ongoing imperial observation and intervention in many worlds, maybe most, leading to mission creep and an effort at cultural modification in favor of the noble's views of human rights - by, amusingly, a nobility that itself answers to no-one. I can't see it happening.

somewhere it says "the imperium rules the space between the stars". I stop there.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by flykiller:
but many religions, cultures, and societies do not accept the notion of property. one is expected to share, or children are viewed as investments, or emminent domain is very strong, or the ideal desired lifestyle is that of a bandit. most cultures even if they accept property hold that property rights are superceded by any number of other rights or obligations or duties or even sheer force. in most times and places the notion of property and its attendent freedom is thin.

This is an example of what a minefield this kind of topic is.

The emergence of private property parallels the emergence of class society. That is, as some humans gained the ability to own property, other humans became slaves, or serfs, or employees.

The privatisation of property corresponded to its monopolisation. What was once the common property of the whole community became the property of specific individuals. And others lost their rights to use it, that is, _their_ (communal) property rights.

This process has repeated itself in many ways in many times. It has even happened in our own lifetimes.

 

[flykiller]

And others lost their rights to use it, that is, _their_ (communal) property rights.

the phrase "communal property" is a contradiction in terms.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />And others lost their rights to use it, that is, _their_ (communal) property rights.

the phrase "communal property" is a contradiction in terms. </font>[/QUOTE] Maybe that's why divorce cases contesting communal property can be so nasty.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by flykiller:


<snip>

unless it takes a lax attitude and goes after only egregious cases the imperium will have a constant uphill battle on its hands opposing slavery and upholding property rights.

<snip>

somewhere it says "the imperium rules the space between the stars". I stop there.

Well, I suppose it's because I posit that due the existence of the Megacorporations, 13 titanic firms whose individual annual gross profits are probably (I vaguely guess) around 800-1200 Trillion each per year, are into a certain concept known as consumerism.

I have always felt that the Megacorporations represented a force at least as powerful as the Imperial Military and Bureacracy. Those megacorporations aren't going to go very far if there aren't large numbers of people out their trying to buy their goods.

Since the Megacorporations have existed from the dawn of the Imperium, indeed, the Imperium was founded via Cleon transforming parts of his own Megacorp into the Imperial Government, then I think they would have been actively "persuading" Member World Governments to "create" an environment that nurtures consumerism. (Okay, the Vilani Bureux might have had a different view, but not the Solomani Megacorps.)

That's 1100 years of facelss and nigh-well implacable organizations grinding down any roadblock on the path to higher sales. Member World Governments that didn't cooperate? I guess that other guy gets elected, gets hand-picked (by forgery and a flechette round to the brain of the previous leader), etc.

The Megacorps, if anything, IMTU, are the real source of a brand of totally impersonal "evil". The trouble is, the Megacorps, led by angathic-drowned Boards of Directors who each get 200-300 years to see the Imperium's lifespan roll past, know that wealthy and satisfied people are the keys to higher sales, not simple one-shot deals that increase suffering. Oh, they'll sell any deadly item of war to anyone if they're not getting caught, but wherever the light of day shines, they're frequently on their best behavior (driven by powerful PR executives who will crush any employee or try to rip down any executive who tarnishes the pristine name <stop laughing> of the Megacorp).

Anyway, basically, I believe the Megacorps foster consumerism and are an extremely powerful force that has aided the Imperium in its drive to support property rights.


Ok, this last part I just added on due to our current conversation, but I've always believed the Megacorps were out their prying open closed and ignorant governments, paving the way for more open markets and greater trade, and, of course, higher sales.

 

[alanb]

A concept introduced in T4 was to broaden out the list of megacorporations. Essentially, the 13 we know today are the winners and survivors. Not all were around when the Imperium was founded.

It was easier to be a megacorp when the Imperium was smaller. Matching its expansion was difficult, and surviving the sometimes literally cutthroat competition with the others was something else again.

A bunch of the elites of the richer worlds no doubt have their own sector or subsector sized corporations that may resemble the megacorps in their operations on their own turf.

It would be fair to suggest that the interaction between the member worlds and the Imperium is not simply a set of local yokels facing up to an interstellar empire of megacorporations. Rather, the two actively interact, compete and intertwine.

 

[jchurchill]

I just scanned through this topic and the group has raised a number of interesting points and matters. Some of these go beyond basic laws and become tangled up in matters of general politics--

e.g the role of the governing and the governed, [Hobbes, Locke etcetc] a system of checks and balances [thanks, Montesquieu], the laws of treaties etc etc...but is is all very much tied to Anglo-Saxon medieval [and psuedo-medieval] or US common law.

One area that is ripe for us is Roman law and its offspring of modern civil law which resulted in the various civil codes [-- the French Code of 1804 and the German Civil Code of 1896-1900]. These are codes of general principles written in language that laymen would recognize and understand. Translations of these codes could provide a useful quick background for Imperial codes.

Another good source is collected treaties on the some some sites on the internet. These give a good flavor for how real rteaties were written and serve as a good guide for creating your own.

 

[jchurchill]

For example....

http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/c_code.html#book1

 

[jchurchill]

And of course this war horse that I may have posted before but has many examples ---

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/20th.htm

Only about 5 countries in the world use a common law system. Everyone else basically employs a general code that traces its roots to the Roman codes of Justinian. So ponder using a general code based form.

 

[jchurchill]

The Dual Alliance between Austria-Hungary and Germany [1879 - 1918] is fairly straightforward and simple. A mere 5 articles but plenty there to bind 2 large empires and lay the grounds for an immense war.


ARTICLE 1.
Should, contrary to their hope, and against the loyal desire of the two High Contracting Parties, one of the two Empires be attacked by Russia the High Contracting Parties are bound to come to the assistance one of the other with the whole war strength of their Empires, and accordingly only to conclude peace together and upon mutual agreement.

ARTICLE 2.
Should one of the High Contracting Parties be attacked by another Power, the other High Contracting Party binds itself hereby, not only not to support the aggressor against its high Ally, but to observe at least a benevolent neutral attitude towards its fellow Contracting Party.

Should, however, the attacking party in such a case be supported by Russia, either by an active cooperation or by military measures which constitute a menace to the Party attacked, then the obligation stipulated in Article 1 of this Treaty, for reciprocal assistance with the whole fighting force, becomes equally operative, and the conduct of the war by the two High Contracting Parties shall in this case also be in common until the conclusion of a common peace.

ARTICLE 3.
The duration of this Treaty shall be provisionally fixed at five years from the day of ratification. One year before the expiration of this period the two High Contracting Parties shall consult together concerning the question whether the conditions serving as the basis of the Treaty still prevail, and reach an agreement in regard to the further continuance or possible modification of certain details. If in the course of the first month of the last year of the Treaty no invitation has been received from either side to open these negotiations, the Treaty shall be considered as renewed for a further period of three years.

ARTICLE 4.
This Treaty shall, in conformity with its peaceful character, and to avoid any misinterpretation, be kept secret by the two High Contracting Parties, and only communicated to a third Power upon a joint understanding between the two Parties, and according to the terms of a special Agreement.

The two High Contracting Parties venture to hope, after the sentiments expressed by the Emperor Alexander at the meeting at Alexandrovo, that the armaments of Russia will not in reality prove to be menacing to them, and have on that account no reason for making a communication at present; should, however, this hope, contrary to their expectations, prove to be erroneous, the two High Contracting Parties would consider it their loyal obligation to let the Emperor Alexander know, at least confidentially, that they must consider an attack on either of them as directed against both.

ARTICLE 5.
This Treaty shall derive its validity from the approbation of the two Exalted Sovereigns and shall be ratified within fourteen days after this approbation has been granted by Their Most Exalted Majesties. In witness whereof the Plenipotentiaries have signed this Treaty with their own hands and affixed their arms.

 

[flykiller]

I have always felt that the Megacorporations represented a force at least as powerful as the Imperial Military and Bureacracy. Those megacorporations aren't going to go very far if there aren't large numbers of people out their trying to buy their goods.

a good line of reasoning, but a tail hangs thereby. consider the spinward marches. out of three hundred and twenty imperial worlds 70% of the imperial population lives on just seven. 20% lives on just twenty more. the megacorps will go where the markets are, and ironically it will be precisely those worlds that are best able to resist them and follow their own way if they wish. other worlds (the remaining 90%) will not be big enough to warrant attention from a megacorp.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I have always felt that the Megacorporations represented a force at least as powerful as the Imperial Military and Bureacracy. Those megacorporations aren't going to go very far if there aren't large numbers of people out their trying to buy their goods.

a good line of reasoning, but a tail hangs thereby. consider the spinward marches. out of three hundred and twenty imperial worlds 70% of the imperial population lives on just seven. 20% lives on just twenty more. the megacorps will go where the markets are, and ironically it will be precisely those worlds that are best able to resist them and follow their own way if they wish. other worlds (the remaining 90%) will not be big enough to warrant attention from a megacorp. </font>[/QUOTE]Ah, you reason with great efficiency.

Hmmm. I tend to overlook the population imbalance in many Sectors on occasion.

My problem with this, and it is my problem, is that it posits an Imperium in the shape of great empty oceans of worlds, with tiny outposts scattered among them, and a few shining beacons of civilization here and there.

This is incompatible with my "massive starfaring civilization" vision of the Imperium.

Further, as a Sector, the Spinward Marches just isn't that imporant. It's way down toward the bottom on the earnings and population lists. Also, it has been given the apt title of "Sector, Interrupted" It deserves that title, and cannot be held forth as typical Sector of the Imperium.

Also, some Sectors are much more populous, notably The Old Expanses (61 High Pop worlds, and 23 in the Pop A bracket), The Solomani Rim, and Massilia, for examples from the top of the list.

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

Don't forget that business will go where the most cost effective access to resources can be had (i.e. cheap raw materials and labor) provided the cost savings are not eaten up transporting the stuff to the market place. So all kinds of corps can be found where ever there is an exploitable resource or a market to sell the end product

 

[flykiller]

Ah, you reason with great efficiency.

thanks. with three children I've had quite a bit of practice ....

The Spinward Marches ... cannot be held forth as typical Sector of the Imperium.

entirely true. it's just the only sector I pay any attention to, and it's more than I can fill. I shudder to think of gaming a sector like the solomani rim, with the politics, occupation, and triple the population. I'd like to run in one of your games, but I'll referee the frontier, thanks.

 

[flykiller]

So all kinds of corps can be found where ever there is an exploitable resource or a market to sell the end product

well, yes, but as long as the resource planets cough up the resources then the megacorps won't care what else goes on there. well, they probably won't.

this particular subject brings to mind quite a few bureaucrat adventure ideas. advance teams, briberies/pacifications, competitors, survey expeditions, imperial interventions .... 'scuse me, gotta go think.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Ah, I love the smell of new ideas in the vacuum.

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by secretagent:
The Dual Alliance between Austria-Hungary and Germany [1879 - 1918] is fairly straightforward and simple. A mere 5 articles but plenty there to bind 2 large empires and lay the grounds for an immense war.


SNIPPED ARTICLES 1 - 4

ARTICLE 5.
This Treaty shall derive its validity from the approbation of the two Exalted Sovereigns and shall be ratified within fourteen days after this approbation has been granted by Their Most Exalted Majesties. In witness whereof the Plenipotentiaries have signed this Treaty with their own hands and affixed their arms.

Thanks for the material - as it will give me material to work off of for my own "Imperium". The Imperial Levy against worlds will likely be included in the treaty in my imperium <g>. I think too I can even figure a way for the Imperium to be kept up to date on population growth...

Article 725 (of a fictitious Imperial Treaty with a fictitious world)

Pursuant to other aspects of the treaty mentioned in articles prior and subsequent to this article, the member world shall engage in conducting a Grand census of the world's population - with said Census to be deducted from the Imperial Levy set forth in Article 724. In instances where the member planet is unable to ship out the levy, or said Levy is worth less than a given amount as set forth in Article 724, the member world is forgiven its levy until such a time as it rises above the minimal levy put forth in article 725.

This would permit worlds with a high enough levy value worth collecting - provide for it, and for worlds where the cost of collecting the levy is higher than the value of the levy - be "forgiven" until such a time as it is in fact, worth the effort.

Imagine how much FUN a GM could have with this provision in their campaigns? A member of the Ministry of Trade shows up with an auditing team plus some documentation of the trade flows to the world in particular. The local planetary treasurer has been claiming a population thatis not justified by the previous census and the trade flows. Current planet now needs to pay for all Imperial levy payments in arrears by at least 3 years...