Imperial Marines Questions and Feedback

[flykiller]

1) It sounds too USMC. 2) It doesn't feel very futuristic and too contemporary.

the usmc works. I expect a reliance on what works to continue.

the Imperium doesn't have unlimited budgets

the imperium appears to have more money than it can spend.

it's expensive to transport troops in starships

in my opinion this is the only particular limitation on troops - troops transported in support ships are elite, those transported in cattle-car ships are cannon fodder.

 

[mike wightman]

MWM refers to them as Imperial Star Marines in his novel and in a couple of places in canon - I'll dig out the references.

LKW was the author of the JTAS article on the Imperial Marines, which made it yanks in space and was considered as holy writ for the GURPS authors.

So in MWM OTU Imperial Star Marines
in the LKW OTU Imperial Marines
in GT ATU Imperial Marines
In MWM Agent of the Imperium and the definitive vision of the OTU they are Imperial Star Marines.

 

[Condottiere]

They put the ism in imperial.

 

[kilemall]

Hmm interesting thought on the Imperial Army- maybe instead of huge opposed invasions, which as we saw with Invasion:Earth could be quite the resource drain, maybe they have a different mission and force profile-

Cadres.

They are to show up, train planetary forces if none or not enough exist, provide a command staff for extant planetary forces that are in over their heads especially with an external threat, raise irregular partisans when regular forces are unsustainable, be able to operate all across the Imperium in all the myriad of TLs and enviornments in a sustained manner using local resources, bring minimal cost-effective amounts of superior tech when it will make a difference, beat the hell out of large merc forces too big for the available Marines to handle, and if push comes to shove provide those large occupation armies.

Imperial Marines are the firemen, Imperial Army are the cadres that mobilize planets to deal with threats too large for megacorps, mercs or marines to handle.

That Rifle and SMG CT skill set makes more sense in that context, just as if not more likely to be operating in sub-TL 10 battlefields.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Have to disagree that Royal Marines are better trained than USMC. No info on level of training of current Russian Naval Infantry.

USMC has a wider writ of operation. So they are trained for insertion in more ways than the Royal Marines. Royals are a smaller, tighter, organization.

Really, I am incredulous.

The Royal Marines have one of the toughest training courses in the world. Not to mention most of the Marines I know even admit the Royal Marines are better trained from O's (08) to the lowest NCO's. I have worked with MEU (SOC)'s a few times. I wasn't all that impressed Uncle Sam's Misguided Children...they are better trained than the average conventional force but not by much.

The Royal Marines are more than capable in vertical envelopment, amphibious Assault, Winter Warfare and Jungle Warfare. They have proven it time after time. Malaya, Borneo, Suez, WWII, Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan... they have a good combat record.

I really don't know what to say.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

MWM refers to them as Imperial Star Marines in his novel and in a couple of places in canon - I'll dig out the references.

LKW was the author of the JTAS article on the Imperial Marines, which made it yanks in space and was considered as holy writ for the GURPS authors.

So in MWM OTU Imperial Star Marines
in the LKW OTU Imperial Marines
in GT ATU Imperial Marines
In MWM Agent of the Imperium and the definitive vision of the OTU they are Imperial Star Marines.

I will take the AOI as Imperial Writ then

 

[Meteoric Assault]

real-world, or fantasy?

imperial marine fleet battalion

I have a lot of real world experience. So I am looking at the question realistically and thoughtfully.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Would you agree that the level of training of Soviet naval troops-whether they are ethnic Russians or not-had a lesser level of training than current Russian naval troops?

That is what Flykiller was referring to.

Well the Soviet Naval Infantry threat was certainly taken seriously enough to require the commitment of 3 CDO Brigade, 2nd Marine Brigade, the NATO ACE force and I will check with a Canadian buddy who was in 2 Commando Canadian Parachute Regiment... I Believe that they were tasked for Northen Norway. I guess they were not milk toast troops.

 

[Condottiere]

What were the Soviet Naval Troops, three year conscripts instead of two?

To be fair, they did appear to have a credible amphibious capability, then, instead of having to buy French.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

What were the Soviet Naval Troops, three year conscripts instead of two?

To be fair, they did appear to have a credible amphibious capability, then, instead of having to buy French.

They were 3 year conscripts...

... I have worked along side the Commandement des Operations Spéciales in Afghanistan... 1er RPIMa and 13e RDP. I was decorated by the french and it was one tough ass Marine Commando( French Navy SEALs) Captain (06) who pinned my medal.

 

[mike wightman]

Really, I am incredulous.

Me too, but not really surprised.

I really don't know what to say.

I do but board rules prevent me.:CoW:

On a more serious note, reading AotI the Imperial Star Marines come across to me as almost totally indoctorated fanatics.

 

[Condottiere]

So, Space Marines.

 

[Reban]

Regimental Combat Team?

4. Graphics Based on JTAS 12 P.42-45

Comments

I'm curious about where you've come up with the Regimental Combat Team from?

From my reading of the JTAS article I thought the Line Regiment was a pool of forces which were assigned as needed to the 3 Task Force Headquarters.

In other words the Regiment operates more like a Brigade or division level organisation. Marine units all seem to be larger in terms of manpower than the equivalent dirtside forces would be (especially at TL15).

Reading JTAS 12 there are no battalions mentioned, each company apparently being an independent command for attachment to the Task force HQ.

There are
- 9 Line Infantry Companies
- 5 Meson Batteries
- 2 Lift Cavalry Companies
- 1 Grav Tank Company

- 3 Task Force Headquarters

- 1 Regimental HQ and Force Pool (according to GT Ground Forces)

From the background, which infers that the Regiment will be widely dispersed I can't see the need for a Regimental Combat Team model. I'd push all the combat companies down to be controlled by Task Force Headquarters. The 'all out war' model task force example in JTAS 12 is only a balanced example, I'd expect the Task Forces to be reinforced with Cav, Tank and Artillery as needed. There doesn't seem to be the luxury of another command element to control them as you've laid it out.


IMTU the Marine Regiments are grouped as one Brigade per Fleet. Each Brigade has 3 Line Regiments and one Marine Armoured Cavalry Regiment. This allows for a force generation cycle putting one Line regiment and one MArCAV Task Force (squadron) on active duty with the Fleet while the others are working up or refitting. In time of war the Brigades could be mobilized and assigned to the divisions seen in the FEE wargames.

My Marine Armoured Cavalry is organized differently to the organization seen in TNE's Striker. I simply flip the proportions seen in the Line Regiments so I have 9 Lift Cavalry Troops and 2 Line companies. They fill the "Fire Brigade" role being slightly 'heavier' than the Line equivalents that are more adaptable (being more infantry orientated).

Task Forces are called X-Ray, Yankee, and Zulu, with each company having a letter designation except for the Commando company which bears the number of the regiment (this way IMTU I can sneak in extra duplicate Commando Coys to confuse the enemy)

I'm interested to see what you propose for the organization of the Lift Cavalry Troops.

 

[jec10]

I'm with Reban - I don't see a RCT being outlined or implied in OTU material.

The JTAS article is quite explicit that the companies are the fixed elements that are unchanging in makeup, whereas everything else is task organised. So likely no battalions.

I think of the Imperial Marine "Task Force" as like the British "Battlegroup" concept.

 

[Condottiere]

Gamewise, when the Imperial Marines turn up, it's supposed to be over, so plot will likely determine force composition.

 

[McPerth]

I'm interested to see what you propose for the organization of the Lift Cavalry Troops.

I'd use the TOE given for the Lift Cavalry battalions of the 4518^th (Huscarles) in SMC and JTAS #9. While not a true Marine unit, I guess it's based more or less on Marine structure.

3. Royal Marines, Soviet Naval Infantry or USMC for Inspiration? (I prefer the Royal Marines they are better trained which reflects the traveller model in my opinion.)

To define the Marines, you should first define its roles and functions, and that is closely tied on your vision of the Imperium.

As I see it, the main Imperium political tool is the IN, and the Marines are its dirtside force projection branch. As such, they are under Naval command (as USMC is, if I'm not wrong).

Another important point is that they don't have extensive tail, using Navy for support. This is explicited about the Medical personnel in several places, and I guess it can be extended to th whole Marines (though they have their support branch).

From MTM, page 45, under Medical School:

Marines have no Medical Officers; they are treated by Navy doctors.

From MTM, page 48, under Combat Arm Selection:

Marine characters may select Infantry or Support

This also hints that Marine Cavalry or Artillery are very small arms, that can only be joined after a cross-training on them by former Infantry or SUpport memebers.

What are Marines roles and missions?

As said, they are the dirstside power projection branch of the IN. As such, their roles and missions are likely to be:

1. IN base defense (along with IN members in shore duty, acting as Naval Infantry)
2. Ship's troops, acting as Power Projection Forces, boarding parties and defense and internal seccurity inside ships. See that they also serve as gunners.
3. Spearhead planetary assaults.
4. Punitive raids (I guess mostly in anti-piracy missions and such).
5. No doubt showing the flag and Shows of Force when needed, along with IN (after all, the ships are not seen by the majority of the population, while parading Marines in BD may be quite impressive)
6. Support to planetary Armies, mostly as Cadres

See that about point 3 there may be some discussion, as while I:E depits all marine units as jump tropos, FFW doesn't explicity say so, so, folloint FFW RAW, no Marine unit (except 6/4518^th battlaion) is jump troop capable on it :CoW: (personally I think it should be considered an errata).

For the rest of tis roles and missions, Infantry is what you need, so my guess is that is an Infantry heavy forcé, with a small support branch and even smaller Cavalry and Artillery ones. Most support and artillery roles are taken up by the Navy, acting as its bases, supply and Medical branches and artillery (either with Ortillery and Fighters).

If we see what skills are in the Support MOS, we find that mostly they are in engineering (Cbt Eng) repair (mechanic and electronics), transport (vehicle), medics and Intellignece (computer) (CT:LBB4/MT, thpouhgh in the latter computer is replaced by the cascade skill Technical), IMHO reinforcing that they relly on Navy for support, most of this support being directly combat-related (except intelligence).

To be able to perform most those missions, they need to be equiped with the best equipment they can. So, I guess their standard TL is 15 (as all Marine units are in FFW, in I:E I guess they are still transiting form 14 to 15) and combat equipment is likely to be BD and lasers/gauss rifles/FG (I don't believe the FG to be the standard weapon, as it is too destructive if your intent is not a punitive raid, mostly in MgT wher there's radiation hazard, and lasers have the advantage of being Zero-G weapons).

I'd also expect all of them to be suberbly trained (and they are depicted as such in most texts), but (to my surprise), only a small part of them are considered "Elite" in both games.

While they seem in many aspects to be based on the USMC, I do not believe there's really an Earth equivalent, as there are too many different environs ans situations they cana find themselves on, far beyond any current tropos expecttives.

 

[kilemall]

They were 3 year conscripts...

... I have worked along side the Commandement des Operations Spéciales in Afghanistan... 1er RPIMa and 13e RDP. I was decorated by the french and it was one tough ass Marine Commando( French Navy SEALs) Captain (06) who pinned my medal.

Heh, I'm probably one of only a few non-service or professional historian Americans to know those French unit types and what they translate to, due to my involvement in a WWII game.

 

[kilemall]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Gamewise, when the Imperial Marines turn up, it's supposed to be over, so plot will likely determine force composition.[/FONT]

Don't forget the narrative/scenario power of 'Intelligence got this wrong'.

Those IN intel guys- always screwing the Vargr.

 

[RandyB]

Don't forget the narrative/scenario power of 'Intelligence got this wrong'.

Those IN intel guys- always screwing the Vargr.

That power depends entirely upon at which end of the Marine intervention the PCs stand. Marine PCs? "Intel flubbed it again and we're in over our heads." Marines against the PCs? Enough Marines that the PCs get a hairs-breadth chance to escape while the rest of their plans go down in fusion-gun flames.

 

[flykiller]

Cadres. They are to show up, train planetary forces if none or not enough exist, provide a command staff for extant planetary forces that are in over their heads especially with an external threat, raise irregular partisans when regular forces are unsustainable, be able to operate all across the Imperium in all the myriad of TLs and enviornments in a sustained manner using local resources ....

... no. I can see a place for it in certain environments, but not general purpose. one does not simply arrive on the scene and train and deploy an army in a month or in a year. and one does not simply provide plans to manufacture the equipment and deploy the necessary equipment in a year or five. a primitive army maybe, but even the greeks and romans trained their men extensively before sending them out.