Imperial Marines Questions and Feedback

[flykiller]

I have a lot of real world experience. So I am looking at the question realistically and thoughtfully.

ok. sounds like you're already inspired and all ready to go. have at it. we'll just stand back.

I posted a pbp game involving ... well I guess I'll let you define the military actors. given your expertise I would appreciate your comments, of any nature.

assault on the ics jefferson davis

 

[McPerth]

Cadres. They are to show up, train planetary forces if none or not enough exist, provide a command staff for extant planetary forces that are in over their heads especially with an external threat, raise irregular partisans when regular forces are unsustainable, be able to operate all across the Imperium in all the myriad of TLs and enviornments in a sustained manner using local resources ....

... no. I can see a place for it in certain environments, but not general purpose. one does not simply arrive on the scene and train and deploy an army in a month or in a year. and one does not simply provide plans to manufacture the equipment and deploy the necessary equipment in a year or five. a primitive army maybe, but even the greeks and romans trained their men extensively before sending them out.

I disagree with you here. I see the cadres aas one of the missions of the Marines, and specially for the Comandos. Why else would Instruction skill be among those that they can achieve in the Comando School?

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Me too, but not really surprised.
I do but board rules prevent me.:CoW:

On a more serious note, reading AotI the Imperial Star Marines come across to me as almost totally indoctorated fanatics.

I already have been warned enough ..... I like being able to talk about traveller here.

 

[flykiller]

I disagree with you here.

that's nice, but can you explicate why? if a planet/culture/society does not have an existing capacity, social and industrial, for war then the inertia to be overcome is significant. one may attempt a sun tzu concubines company approach but that won't work with armored vehicle operators and high tech comm/sensor systems technicians.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

I'm curious about where you've come up with the Regimental Combat Team from?

From my reading of the JTAS article I thought the Line Regiment was a pool of forces which were assigned as needed to the 3 Task Force Headquarters.

In other words the Regiment operates more like a Brigade or division level organisation. Marine units all seem to be larger in terms of manpower than the equivalent dirtside forces would be (especially at TL15).

Reading JTAS 12 there are no battalions mentioned, each company apparently being an independent command for attachment to the Task force HQ.

There are
- 9 Line Infantry Companies
- 5 Meson Batteries
- 2 Lift Cavalry Companies
- 1 Grav Tank Company

- 3 Task Force Headquarters

- 1 Regimental HQ and Force Pool (according to GT Ground Forces)

From the background, which infers that the Regiment will be widely dispersed I can't see the need for a Regimental Combat Team model. I'd push all the combat companies down to be controlled by Task Force Headquarters. The 'all out war' model task force example in JTAS 12 is only a balanced example, I'd expect the Task Forces to be reinforced with Cav, Tank and Artillery as needed. There doesn't seem to be the luxury of another command element to control them as you've laid it out.


IMTU the Marine Regiments are grouped as one Brigade per Fleet. Each Brigade has 3 Line Regiments and one Marine Armoured Cavalry Regiment. This allows for a force generation cycle putting one Line regiment and one MArCAV Task Force (squadron) on active duty with the Fleet while the others are working up or refitting. In time of war the Brigades could be mobilized and assigned to the divisions seen in the FEE wargames.

My Marine Armoured Cavalry is organized differently to the organization seen in TNE's Striker. I simply flip the proportions seen in the Line Regiments so I have 9 Lift Cavalry Troops and 2 Line companies. They fill the "Fire Brigade" role being slightly 'heavier' than the Line equivalents that are more adaptable (being more infantry orientated).

Task Forces are called X-Ray, Yankee, and Zulu, with each company having a letter designation except for the Commando company which bears the number of the regiment (this way IMTU I can sneak in extra duplicate Commando Coys to confuse the enemy)

I'm interested to see what you propose for the organization of the Lift Cavalry Troops.

You are very correct. Looking at the Imperial Marine TOE from JTAS 12 P42-45. the extra Meson battery , Tank company and cavalry troops I grouped ...and added on HQ element.

One thing I did notice was the disparity between the graphics of the Line Company and text ( graphic shows four platoons and text mentions five). I went with a rule of four platoon / Firing sections per company.)

 

[Meteoric Assault]

I'm with Reban - I don't see a RCT being outlined or implied in OTU material.

The JTAS article is quite explicit that the companies are the fixed elements that are unchanging in makeup, whereas everything else is task organised. So likely no battalions.

I think of the Imperial Marine "Task Force" as like the British "Battlegroup" concept.

Task force is a battalion.

"A marine regiment consists of a number of companies and sections
and three force command headquarters. Units are attached to these headquarters to produce task forces tailored to specific missions. When necessary, a task
force is separated from its parent regiment for special duties (such as assisting the interdiction of a world), and it is not unknown for them to be
apart for years. Regimental integrity, however, is important to morale, and is
maintained wherever possible.

The organization shown above is of a typical marine task force intended for use in an all out war, with the rest of it s regiment" -JTAS 12, p 42-43

 

[Meteoric Assault]

I'd use the TOW given for the Lift Cavalry battalions of the 4518^th (Huscarles) in SMC and JTAS #9. While not a true Marine unit, I guess it's based more or less on Marine structure.

I did look at that and the Imperial Army it seems uses three platoons, where as in the JTAS 12 Article you see four meson sleds, four pictured platoons ( fives text)... So I went with 4 Lift Cav platoons, Four Tank Platoons ... the ironmongery is going to be interesting to look at and compare and contrast, because both articles have good examples.

 

[Reban]

I disagree with you here. I see the cadres aas one of the missions of the Marines, and specially for the Comandos. Why else would Instruction skill be among those that they can achieve in the Comando School?

Commandos acting as instructors for cadre missions works okay for small forces training as insurgents or troops employed in asymmetric warfare.

The Commando Company in a Marine Regiment I believe only has an establishment of 88 Commandos, and there aren't that many regiments available. So 88 instructors aren't going to train a planetary army.

What they can do is train small groups.

Consider these two options:

1. Marines are "Protected Forces" trained to fight and survive in hostile environments more extreme than the Earth type Desert/Jungle/Arctic/Mountain extremes. They can fight and survive in vacuum, zero-g, and space/hard radiation environments. Passing on these skills to local forces might be a major role for such instructors.

2. Marines are a TL15 force. Passing on the technology and tactics oh high technology levels to existing local forces to make them more effective against enemies of the Imperium or in support of Imperial policy. In this role they are "training the trainers" or creating special units.

In a lot of way though this type of medium to long term investment of Marines or Marine Commandos is at odds with their role as a "strike" or "assault" force. I think the Green Beret style cadre mission may either be a role for the Imperial Army or a long term secondment as we have seen in the Duke of Regina's Huscarles where they virtuall stop being Marines and become the seeders of a new unit.

 

[McPerth]

that's nice, but can you explicate why? if a planet/culture/society does not have an existing capacity, social and industrial, for war then the inertia to be overcome is significant. one may attempt a sun tzu concubines company approach but that won't work with armored vehicle operators and high tech comm/sensor systems technicians.

Isn't one of the usual missions for SF troops of the main powers to act as advisors and trainers for other countries military?

And why else should Instruction be among the skills that one can achieve in the Comando School?

Seeing what skills one can achieve in a career or specia lassignment gives us a hindisght about its nature, as much as the background or literatura (if the tables are well done, off course).

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Commandos acting as instructors for cadre missions works okay for small forces training as insurgents or troops employed in asymmetric warfare.

The Commando Company in a Marine Regiment I believe only has an establishment of 88 Commandos, and there aren't that many regiments available. So 88 instructors aren't going to train a planetary army.

I would encourage you to examine the Special Forces ODA, ODB and ODC Concepts.

ODA ( 12 Man Team)
"The primary operational element of a Special Forces company, an Special Forces Operational Detachment A, also known as an "A Detachment" or "A-Team," consists of 12 Special Forces Soldiers: 2 officers, and 10 sergeants. All team members are Special Forces qualified and cross-trained in different skills. They are also multi-lingual. The A-Team is almost unlimited in its capabilities to operate in hostile or denied areas. A-Teams can infiltrate and exfiltrate their area of operations by air, land, or sea. An A-Team can operate for an indefinite period of time in remote locations with little or no outside support. They are truly independent, self-sustaining "detachments." A-Teams routinely train, advise and assist other US and allied forces and other agencies while standing by to perform other special operations as directed by higher authorities. All detachment members are capable of advising, assisting, and directing foreign counterparts in their function up through battalion level.

Capabilities of the highly-versatile A-team include: plan and conduct SF operations separately or as part of a larger force; infiltrate and exfiltrate specified operational areas by air, land, or sea; conduct operations in remote areas and hostile environments for extended periods of time with a minimum of external direction and support; develop, organize, equip, train and advise or direct indigenous forces up to battalion size in special operations; train, advise and assist other US and allied forces and agencies; plan and conduct unilateral SF operations; and perform other special operations as directed by higher authority."

ODB

"The Special Forces company headquarters, also known as a Special Forces Operational Detachment Bravo, "B Detachment," or "B Team," is a multi-purpose C2 element with many employment options. It cannot isolate and deploy Special Forces teams independently without significant augmentation. An Special Forces Operational Detachment Alpha ("A Team") cannot deploy or operate without the support of the B Team. The B Team consists of 11 personnel and is the headquarters element of the Special Forces company. It acts as the command and control of the A Teams within the company. The B-Team establishes and operates the Advanced Operational Base (AOB). The B Team can and does: Plan and conduct SF operations separately or as part of a larger force; train and prepare Special Forces A-Teams for deployment; infiltrate and exfiltrate operational areas by air, land, or sea; conduct operations in remote areas and hostile environments for extended periods of time with minimal external direction or support; Develop, organize, equip, train, and advise or direct indigenous combat forces up to regimental size in Special Operations (SO); and train, advise, and assist other US and allied forces and agencies."

"The Special Forces battalion headquarters, also known as a Special Forces Operational Detachment Charlie, "C Detachment," or "C Team," provides command and control, and staff planning and supervision for Special Forces battalion operations and administration. The SFOD-C plans and directs Special Forces operations, provides command and staff to operate a Forward Operating Base (FOB), and provides advice and staff assistance on employment of Special Forces elements to joint SOC, JSOTF and other major headquarters."

 

[Reban]

Task force is a battalion.

The way I have looked at it is that a TL15 Marine Company is closer in equivalency to the next level up; a battalion, so the Task Force Headquarters unit is more akin to a Brigade HQ with the companies acting like attached battalions do in a brigade.

Your mileage may vary on that, but in keeping with the military trend that smaller units are expected to take on the tasks their parent level once did, i.e. the modern platoon undertakes the tasks a company once did, I think the TL15 Company is going to be expect to have a much larger operation area and list of combat capabilities.

I did look at that and the Imperial Army it seems uses three platoons, where as in the JTAS 12 Article you see four meson sleds, four pictured platoons ( fives text)... So I went with 4 Lift Cav platoons, Four Tank Platoons ... the ironmongery is going to be interesting to look at and compare and contrast, because both articles have good examples.

Interesting observation, I hadn't caught the difference between the graphic and text. I must look at that again.

 

[flykiller]

Isn't one of the usual missions for SF troops of the main powers to act as advisors and trainers for other countries military?

the original suggestion was cadre as imperial army. sure, one may deploy cadre, but such a system could not be called an army.

And why else should Instruction be among the skills that one can achieve in the Comando School?

reban answered this sufficiently. simply put, cadre are slow. one may deploy them where politics or logistics or cultural considerations or previous engagements of regular forces make them the logical choice, but they cannot substitute for a real army.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

the original suggestion was cadre as imperial army. sure, one may deploy cadre, but such a system could not be called an army.



reban answered this sufficiently. simply put, cadre are slow. one may deploy them where politics or logistics or cultural considerations or previous engagements of regular forces make them the logical choice, but they cannot substitute for a real army.

I would suggest a review of the 5th SFG: during Vietnam with MIKE FORCE, CIDG; Desert Storm; and when they paired with the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan... they achieved dramatic, Swift results.

I don't understand the context when you say 'cadre are slow'

 

[Meteoric Assault]

I think the TL15 Company is going to be expect to have a much larger operation area and list of combat capabilities.

No disagreement with you there. Given the TL15 C7I advancements they will be able to operate 3 dimensionally and dominate/overmatch a huge battlespace.

Interesting observation, I hadn't caught the difference between the graphic and text. I must look at that again.

I caught the mistake when I began the prep for the OP. I just checked my tattered JTAS 12 it says Five , versus a PDF copy I have off the disk which says four"


Just for reference below-

**- Section
***- Platoon
I- Company
II- Battalion ( the Task Force is identified as a battalion Maneuver element in

JTAS, which is why I considered them to be a Battalion Task force)​

III- Regiment
X- Brigade

 

[Reban]

I would encourage you to examine the Special Forces ODA, ODB and ODC Concepts.

ODA ( 12 Man Team)

develop, organize, equip, train and advise or direct indigenous forces up to battalion size in special operations; train,


ODB

Develop, organize, equip, train, and advise or direct indigenous combat forces up to regimental size in Special Operations (SO);

Okay fair enough but the my point was that you're not going create a Planetary Army from scratch with a Marine Commando Company in the Cadre mission.

Four A Teams and a B Team can train a regiment sized unit in six weeks to six months?

Taking a Commando Company or Companies to perform a Cadre mission on that scale would be better accomplished on a model like Kitchener's Million Man Armies or Heinlen's Starship Troopers were trained and raised.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Okay fair enough but the my point was that you're not going create a Planetary Army from scratch with a Marine Commando Company in the Cadre mission.

Four A Teams and a B Team can train a regiment sized unit in six weeks to six months?

Taking a Commando Company or Companies to perform a Cadre mission on that scale would be better accomplished on a model like Kitchener's Million Man Armies or Heinlen's Starship Troopers were trained and raised.

It would take three SF groups plus a two star Command element train and raise a "kitchner's Million Man Army" and it would be exhausting...

So you are correct in that aspect.

 

[aramis]

[m;]Let's avoid the group attacks.[/m;]

Disparaging remarks about existing military units can be construed as group attacks upon members of the board affiliated with them.

Let's also avoid the Jingoistic views of our own forces, too.

 

[Condottiere]

Going by the current trinity of career paths, and harking back to the CoDominium Marines, it's quite possible that the Imperial Marine units tend to specialize in the roles they've been assigned to, whether shipboard security/boarding, assault, or ground security.

 

[McPerth]

II- Battalion ( the Task Force is identified as a battalion Maneuver element in

JTAS, which is why I considered them to be a Battalion Task force)​

Just to reinforce your point about a Task Force is a battalion equivalent, see that in CT:LBB4 table or ranks (page 8) and in MTH page 51, O4 is a Major (Marine Force Commander), so hinting he commands a Force (probably Task Force), while this equivalent O4 in the Army (Major) uses to command a battalion.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Okay fair enough but the my point was that you're not going create a Planetary Army from scratch with a Marine Commando Company in the Cadre mission.

Four A Teams and a B Team can train a regiment sized unit in six weeks to six months?

Taking a Commando Company or Companies to perform a Cadre mission on that scale would be better accomplished on a model like Kitchener's Million Man Armies or Heinlen's Starship Troopers were trained and raised.

The JTAS Article Mentions Higher formations.

What 'if' there was a marine commando battalion at a quadrant or Sector level?