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Imperial Marines Questions and Feedback

Really, I am incredulous.

The Royal Marines have one of the toughest training courses in the world. Not to mention most of the Marines I know even admit the Royal Marines are better trained from O's (08) to the lowest NCO's. I have worked with MEU (SOC)'s a few times. I wasn't all that impressed Uncle Sam's Misguided Children...they are better trained than the average conventional force but not by much.

The Royal Marines are more than capable in vertical envelopment, amphibious Assault, Winter Warfare and Jungle Warfare. They have proven it time after time. Malaya, Borneo, Suez, WWII, Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan... they have a good combat record.

I really don't know what to say.

If you already had a preconceived bias towards the Royal Marines, why did you solicit other people's opinions? Then when they give you their opinion, why did you attack it by "being incredulous" that their opinion differed from yours?

And the combat record of the USMC has Tripoli (Derna), Mexican-American War, Spanish-American War, WWI, Central America, the majority of the Pacific campaign in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan and many smaller "police actions.

I said NOTHING about their combat record. You asked about TRAINING, very different than combat record.

There are several youtubes of comparison between the two systems of training, and youtubes of Royal Marines taking USMC training (and likely vise versa, didn't look)

Royal Marines don't operate from LCACs. Both have paratroops, both have other types of assault landing crafts. Royal Marines don't have actual tanks. USMC does. Both have integral aviation.

Both have elite forces inside their elite organizations.

They have very different letters of writ. The jobs currently given to the Royal Marines are generally smaller in scale and shorter in duration than those given to the USMC. Or would you like to look at current deployments of the two forces?

This wasn't always true, but the Royal Marines have been around ~200-300 years longer than the USMC, and for the first ~150 years the USMC was a very small force indeed.

So, again, in answer to your question I give you my opinion, based ENTIRELY on modern concepts of the two forces and on my own personal experience with both forces (I am ex Army, and have had exercises with both in the 1980's):

For ship's troops Royal Marines

For assault troops USMC.

Further, I would appreciate it if you didn't respond in such a manner that offends the writer of the quote you are responding to.
 
If you already had a preconceived bias towards the Royal Marines, why did you solicit other people's opinions? Then when they give you their opinion, why did you attack it by "being incredulous" that their opinion differed from yours?

And the combat record of the USMC has Tripoli (Derna), Mexican-American War, Spanish-American War, WWI, Central America, the majority of the Pacific campaign in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan and many smaller "police actions.

I said NOTHING about their combat record. You asked about TRAINING, very different than combat record.

There are several youtubes of comparison between the two systems of training, and youtubes of Royal Marines taking USMC training (and likely vise versa, didn't look)

Royal Marines don't operate from LCACs. Both have paratroops, both have other types of assault landing crafts. Royal Marines don't have actual tanks. USMC does. Both have integral aviation.

Both have elite forces inside their elite organizations.

They have very different letters of writ. The jobs currently given to the Royal Marines are generally smaller in scale and shorter in duration than those given to the USMC. Or would you like to look at current deployments of the two forces?

This wasn't always true, but the Royal Marines have been around ~200-300 years longer than the USMC, and for the first ~150 years the USMC was a very small force indeed.

So, again, in answer to your question I give you my opinion, based ENTIRELY on modern concepts of the two forces and on my own personal experience with both forces (I am ex Army, and have had exercises with both in the 1980's):

For ship's troops Royal Marines

For assault troops USMC.

Further, I would appreciate it if you didn't respond in such a manner that offends the writer of the quote you are responding to.

I am not biased... I have worked with several NATO& Non-NATO forces and have seen capabilities first hand in training and in combat, so I feel I can make an informed opinion. I will be warned for this: I am ex-US Army as Well... I worked in Tier 2, as well as conventional airborne forces...

Training reflects in combat performance.

I was was hoping to have an informed discussion... I am beginning to wonder if that was a productive idea.
 
I am not biased... I have worked with several NATO& Non-NATO forces and have seen capabilities first hand in training and in combat, so I feel I can make an informed opinion. I will be warned for this: I am ex-US Army as Well... I worked in Tier 2, as well as conventional airborne forces...

Training reflects in combat performance.

I was was hoping to have an informed discussion... I am beginning to wonder if that was a productive idea.

Then you already knew they have very different letters of writ---"Business Plans"---and yet you are incredulous that someone would not automatically have the same opinion as you.

You say you worked in Tier Two, so your experience is with special operators, and as you are US Army, your experience with British Forces is ~80-90% British Special Operators but your US experience is way more broad than that, especially when you compare your experience with the two Marine forces. Did you keep that in mind, or let your opinion of Royal Marines be entirely colored by your experience with Royal Special operators and your USMC experience be entirely colored by your Diego Garcia experience (which is a MACV force, NOT a special operator force)?

I am also an Army Vet, a veteran of Armored Cavalry, stationed in Germany for 4 years (when there were two of them) and have operated in exercises both with and against both US and Royal Marines and all variants of NATO troops as well. In my experience, when they stuck to what they were designed for, both forces worked equally well, and when both forces went outside their design they both adjusted well.

But my experience isn't with special operators, just regular old Marines, of both Royal and USMC.

Perhaps you should re-examine your memory and determine if your bias is based on comparing Royal Marine special operators with regular old US Marines.

Further, if you want an intelligent discussion of an issue it is important to NOT emotionally attack someone's opinion but use an well thought out intellectual argument to support your position.
 
Then you already knew they have very different letters of writ---"Business Plans"---and yet you are incredulous that someone would not automatically have the same opinion as you.

You say you worked in Tier Two, so your experience is with special operators, and as you are US Army, your experience with British Forces is ~80-90% British Special Operators but your US experience is way more broad than that, especially when you compare your experience with the two Marine forces. Did you keep that in mind, or let your opinion of Royal Marines be entirely colored by your experience with Royal Special operators and your USMC experience be entirely colored by your Diego Garcia experience (which is a MACV force, NOT a special operator force)?

I am also an Army Vet, a veteran of Armored Cavalry, stationed in Germany for 4 years (when there were two of them) and have operated in exercises both with and against both US and Royal Marines and all variants of NATO troops as well. In my experience, when they stuck to what they were designed for, both forces worked equally well, and when both forces went outside their design they both adjusted well.

But my experience isn't with special operators, just regular old Marines, of both Royal and USMC.

Perhaps you should re-examine your memory and determine if your bias is based on comparing Royal Marine special operators with regular old US Marines.

Further, if you want an intelligent discussion of an issue it is important to NOT emotionally attack someone's opinion but use an well thought out intellectual argument to support your position.

I am sorry you have lost your objectivity, and you have made assumptions about my experience that have steered you down the wrong path. I am not even upset with you. But you have made assumptions that have lead you to wrong conclusions.

I have stated before I worked with MEU (SOC) which is a conventional task force with a bit of extra training and attachments. I have also worked alongside 40 Commando ( a conventional RM Maneuver element). The comparison is a valid comparison on a conventinal level. As far as the 'business plan' it is the same force projection from sea and over the horizon in forcible entry operations.
 
Just to reinforce your point about a Task Force is a battalion equivalent, see that in CT:LBB4 table or ranks (page 8) and in MT:pH page 51, O4 is a Major (Marine Force Commander), so hinting he commands a Force (probably Task Force), while this equivalent O4 in the Army (Major) uses to command a battalion.

Just to clarify where I'm coming from with my "Marine Company = Battalion level", I'm not talking from an organisational or command point of view. A company is a company.

What I'm saying is a Marine Company should have capability equivalent to a conventional battalion. Remember its an all Lift, all PGMP, all Battledress unit. Therefore when thinking about how Marine units are used operationally, referencing the the next higher level of conventional formation is helpful.

Think about how that fits into the canon idea that "Marines" are elite troops.

The JTAS Article Mentions Higher formations.

What 'if' there was a marine commando battalion at a quadrant or Sector level?

Well this goes to the question of what the Marine Commandos are. If IYTU commandos are direct equivalents of the Green Berets and you are continually training lots of armies on the planetary scale thats okay.

IMTU I look at the fact that each Marine Regiment has an integral Commando Coy. That suggests that the function of the commandos is to support the Task Forces or support Fleet elements as pert of the wider Marine mission.

To me this suggests a role more like Force Recon or SBS. Covert insertion for the purpose of reconnaissance or forward observation, pathfinding for Marine assaults and behind the lines disruptive operations. The other mission would be the classic raiding mission of the 'commando'.

'If' there was a Marine Commando Battalion I think it would probably be a dedicated raiding force.

Personally I'm a believer in the "there IS an Imperial Army" school of thought and the training of large forces operating in planetary environments is part of their mission.

Thats not to say the Marines and their Commando branch hasn't a role. I just think that role would concentrate on their niches: Protected Forces combat and High Tech warfare.
 
Just to clarify where I'm coming from with my "Marine Company = Battalion level", I'm not talking from an organisational or command point of view. A company is a company.

What I'm saying is a Marine Company should have capability equivalent to a conventional battalion. Remember its an all Lift, all PGMP, all Battledress unit. Therefore when thinking about how Marine units are used operationally, referencing the the next higher level of conventional formation is helpful.

Think about how that fits into the canon idea that "Marines" are elite troops.



Well this goes to the question of what the Marine Commandos are. If IYTU commandos are direct equivalents of the Green Berets and you are continually training lots of armies on the planetary scale thats okay.

IMTU I look at the fact that each Marine Regiment has an integral Commando Coy. That suggests that the function of the commandos is to support the task Forces or support Fleet elements as pert of the wider Marine mission.

To me this suggests a role more like Force Recon or SBS. Covert insertion for the purpose of reconnaissance or forward observation, pathfinding for Marine assaults and behind the lines disruptive operations. The other mission would be the classic raiding mission of the 'commando'.

'If' there was a Marine Commando Battalion I think it would probably be a dedicated raiding force.

Personally I'm a believer in the "there IS an Imperial Army" school of thought and the training of large forces operating in planetary environments is part of their mission.

Thats not to say the Marines and their Commando branch hasn't a role. I just think that role would concentrate on their niches: Protected Forces combat and High Tech warfare.

I am not disagreeing with you... I am just saying you identified a strategic capability and I am wondering aloud if it could be addressed in such a manner?
 
... no. I can see a place for it in certain environments, but not general purpose. one does not simply arrive on the scene and train and deploy an army in a month or in a year. and one does not simply provide plans to manufacture the equipment and deploy the necessary equipment in a year or five. a primitive army maybe, but even the greeks and romans trained their men extensively before sending them out.

Funny, but many rebel armies have done just that in history.

The basics for training a soldier can be taught in 2-3 months. Basics. Just enough to be combat capable. (source: multiple papers by US Army TraDoc, including lists of initial entry training.)

The basics of training an NCO are a couple months. It's best if they are also experienced soldiers already, but that's not absolutely essential (See Russian Army training protocols.)

Senior NCO's are best drawn from experienced NCO's, but again, that's not a vital necessity - when building from scratch, take the best NCO trainees, appoint them and have cadre teach them the additional rules. Or, like the russians, train them separately from the NCO's. Praporshiki are technically comparable to US warrant officers, not US SNCO's, in terms of their privileges, training, and customs & courtesies, but comparable to US SNCO's & UK warrants in duties.

Officers are trainable in a year or less as well. The best officers are well educated and have enlisted service as well. (TraDoc, and the UK equivalent, both have said this repeatedly. So has the GRU and KGB...)

All the first and second world nations militaries have service academies and most have provisions for college officer training - either as part of college, or as an under 1 year post-baccalaureate training (especially for former enlisted). Likewise, most have provisions for officer conversion for serving enlisted.

There are 6 nearly universal roles in the military leadership. Only generals and specialists can't be readily trained in under a year.
There are...
  • NCOs - the guys who directly lead the troops
  • Senior NCOs - Guys who provide direct supervision of NCO's and administrative support to the officers.
  • Company Grade Officers - Direct tactical supervision
  • Specialist Officers - professional skills in specific fields.
  • Field Grade Officers - Supertactical supervision, operational supervision
  • General Grade Officers - strategic and operational supervision, and interface with civil government

Specialist officers usually have specialized training in an academic setting.
The first specialist officers treated as such and comissioned without prior service were...
  • Surgeons
  • Chaplains
  • Naval Pilots
  • Naval Navigators
  • Paymasters
  • Civil Engineers
When the US and UK created the legal officer roles, they were added. Now, there are more kinds of specialist officer. Commonly...
  • Aircraft Pilots
  • Legal Officers
  • Nurses
  • Veterinarians
  • Environmental Sciences officers
  • Intelligence Analysis officers
  • Public Affairs Officers
  • Supply Officers

There is one specialist officer type who needs special mention: Political Officers. They are a 7th role... their job is to prevent the company, field and general grade officers from doing things the state doesn't agree with. To maintain doctrinal purity to (usually) one party states. (In certain theocracies, the chaplains are the political officers, but that's none of the 1st/2nd world nations to my knowledge.)

The training of field grade officers need not include the same tactical knowledge of the company grade, provided it includes the needed operational knowledge and a training to actually let the trained tactical officers do the job.

It's been done frequently. It's been done by radical political groups, by 3rd world nations, and by US and UK special training programs troops repeatedly in nation building.

Further, no group of humans living above subsistence levels lacks a military tradition, and almost all (even third world) have those same 6 categories of leadership, so there is almost no "training from scratch"... you almost always find some experienced individuals in any cause raising an army.

The Russian Revolution is one such case. The Red Army retrained NCO's to officers in short order. Not great officers, but competent enough. And, by 1938, the Russian Red Army was functionally returning to the same system as the Russian Imperial Army.

Note that the titles don't always line up with the roles.
  • US Warrant Officers are officers. They do specialist officer jobs.
  • UK Warrant Officers are Senior NCOs. They do SNCO and some Specialist Officer jobs.
  • Russian Praporshiki are Senior NCO's with Officer uniforms, but can be (and sometimes are) placed in company grade officer postings. Some are recruited in 1st (conscript) tour; others are recruited in 2nd or 3rd (volunteer) tours.
  • Russian Efreytori (Corporals) are essentially not NCO's in role - they are, in practice, still NCO trainees, who wind up functioning as NCO's when promoted to Mladshii Sargenti; they are selected from top initial trainees, and top initial reenlistees. After a year or two as Efreytori, they are eligible for promotion to mladshii sargenti. Despite an name that translates as "Corporal", they are really equivalent to senior privates.
 
I am sorry you have lost your objectivity, and you have made assumptions about my experience that have steered you down the wrong path. I am not even upset with you. But you have made assumptions that have lead you to wrong conclusions.

I have stated before I worked with MEU (SOC) which is a conventional task force with a bit of extra training and attachments. I have also worked alongside 40 Commando ( a conventional RM Maneuver element). The comparison is a valid comparison on a conventinal level. As far as the 'business plan' it is the same force projection from sea and over the horizon in forcible entry operations.

If it appears I have lost my objectivity, that would be to your "Incredulous" position when I gave you my opinion.

Again, if you already had decided that the Royal Marines is what you wanted, then why did you ask the question? So far, all I can tell is so that you could denigrate anyone who disagreed with you.

And no, the business plan is not the same. The Royal Marines are a much smaller organization than the USMC, their employment does not include take AND hold operations of weeks, months endurance.
 
If it appears I have lost my objectivity, that would be to your "Incredulous" position when I gave you my opinion.

All I did was disagree with you.

Again, if you already had decided that the Royal Marines is what you wanted, then why did you ask the question? So far, all I can tell is so that you could denigrate anyone who disagreed with you.

Where did I say I wanted royal marines? Show me? Did I denigrate you?, If you feel that way I am sorry.

And no, the business plan is not the same. The Royal Marines are a much smaller organization than the USMC, their employment does not include take AND hold operations of weeks, months endurance.

Falklands, Sierra Leone (where they came in to replace 1 Para)...period. Fact completely contradict your statement. And then their was their sustained operations in Helmand.

And the US marines are an expeditionary force any prolonged deployment is always supported by big army and sister Navy... Joint Warfare.
 
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