Improving skills or characteristics

[dragnstears]

Doctor Issues

I think that's a good starting point, but I think it must be moe closely defined. I still stay on the subject skills must be divided on sevral classes to be improved.

Another question is about learning 0 level skills. I'll assume they are learned as one skill rank (succes on a skill you doesn't have). If so, what skill level do you use to determine time? 0? -3?

Let's imagine some examples that I think illustrate what has to be refined:

One character having no vehicle skill tries to learn weeled vehicle (tries to obtain driving licence). Aplicable stat is 7 (average). Instructor level is 2 (average too).

It will take 4d6 (assuming skill modifier 0) to learn it: 4-24 weeks, average 14. Quite in acordance on time most people I know meeded to obtain it. If skill mod was -3 (his modifier to drive, as he has no skill), it whould learn it on 1d6 weeks (average 3.5), too short a time, IMO.

If he tries to obtain profesional licence (level 1), it will take similar time (unless he rolled exceptional succes on the first roll).

Now imagine this example on some one that tries to become a doctor (or engineer, or any other universitary career). Instructor whould probably be better, as he's going to a university, so exceptional succes is more likely, and probably his stat whould be higher if he enteren the university...

Let's imagine his stat modifier is +1, and instructor level 4. Total mod +5. exceptional succes on 9+.

Fist time he rolls 4 (+5=9): success, learns skill 0 Takes 14 weeks (average).

Second roll is 9 (+5=14). Level 6 succes (extraordinary succes). Takes 20 weeks (quite more than average). He's now medical skill 2 (a full doctor, according to page 51 on core book).

He has become a doctor in 34 weeks on the university (about 8 months)...

And quite less if -3 modifier is used to learn skill 0 (I assumed it's not)

Let's say you divide skills on several classes, among which is 'universitary studies' (or whatever you want to call it), on which months are used instead of weeks. 34 months, assuming 9-10 months of actual classes every year: 3-4 years. And that with an extraordinary succes... Quite closer to what takes one to become a doctor, IMO.

Of course, we're only talking about formal skill improving, what I miss more sorely on MgT is a way to improve skills through experience (if using the formulas abrove, it will take 6D6 (average 21 months) of studies to up his skill to 3 (4 if exceptional success).

First off, I think using the quote from page 51 about the Medic skill conferring the rank of doctor is creating some confusion. Medic 2 would only give someone a Surgical ability of a doctor not actually confer a title of doctor on someone. A doctor would have many skills that they learn over time to earn that title such as: multiple life science and physical science skills, Investigation, and probably sensor skills to use MRI or CAT scan machines. Medic skill allows someone who knows what is going on to treat someone's problem, a nurse with Medic 4 (A PHD in Nursing) could treat a heart attack patient easily or repair a gushing artery in the field. Conversely, if the patient is dying but she cannot see the problem she does not know how to treat the patient. He could be dying of radiation poisoning or Arsenic or an aneurism. Without the doctor's other skills at determining illnesses the Medic skill is limited.

Which leads me to my second point, synergies. Some titles need multiple skills to be attained. A nuclear engineer would need the Engineer skill and the Physical Science skill of at least rank 2 in each before he can be considered a competent nuclear engineer. By requiring prerequisites to some skill levels or titles you can force the skill training to more realistic rates. An example could be one character wants to be a notable Quantum Drive Engineer, aka Engineer (Quantum) 5 If the character gets lucky with a rank 3 at the end of character generation with all other skills at 0, then it would only take a mater of weeks to achieve that goal. By requiring other skills to be taken before a rank 5 skill can be achieved, or a special title is attained, the realism can be maintained.

Take the previous example. The GM determines that before Engineer (Quantum) can be raised to 4 or higher the character needs to at least raise their elementary understanding of particle physics to a professional level, Physical Science (Physics) 2. To get Engineering to 5 the GM may require Physical science to raise again or add another skill that has to move with it such as Art (Writing) since many notable scientists also write extensively. Very few skills are learned in a vacuum and this type of branching out is quite common. Personally, my degree is in Computer Information Technologies, which is mostly hardware and operating systems, but I have also taken classes in programming languages, networking systems, and many other classes that all relate to my field. These have all helped me become better at what I do and broaden the scope of my abilities.

 

[HG_B]

First off, I think using the quote from page 51 about the Medic skill conferring the rank of doctor is creating some confusion. Medic 2 would only give someone a Surgical ability of a doctor not actually confer a title of doctor on someone.

That's an interpretation for YTU. The rules as stated are what they are. Doctor, isn't a "rank". So, in MGT a Medic-2 CAN be considered a "doctor".

 

[Fox's Master]

Elegantly simple system for advancing skills

D. Foxx and I have embraced a rather simple system for both tracking successes/failures, and using those numbers as the basis for advancing skill levels. It works as follows...

1.) Set-up a spreadsheet with each of the character's skills.
2.) During the game, simply track the successes (roll results > 8) and failures (roll results < 8).
3.) When a particular skill reaches 50 points (the amount of rolls in your game may dictate a different number), the character earns an "Experience" Point. Annotate the "Experience" Point and reduce the number of tracked successes by 50.
4.) Once the campaign is at a point where the character is safe and secure, and can spend some time in training, the player may make a Skill Advancement Roll (8+), with the next level attempted serving as a negative modifier and the number of "Experience" Points as a positive modifier.

Jack Starlight
Skill/Level/Success Points/Experience Points
Astrogation/2/35/0
Computers/2/55/1
Gun Combat (Slug Pistol)/0/50/0
Pilot/3/25/1
Streetwise/2/27/0

In this example, Jack's latest adventure has come to an end. He's earned quite a few successes and may make an Advancement Roll for both Computers and Gun Combat (Slug Pistol) since he's earned 50 or more Success Points. The GM would reduce the Success Points for both of the skills and raise the number of Experience Points by 1 (Note that Jack possesses 1 Experience Point in Computers already, which means he's attempted the Advancement roll, but failed to make it). Jack's sheet now looks like this:

Jack Starlight
Skill/Level/Success Points/Experience Points
Astrogation/2/35/0
Computers/2/5/2
Gun Combat (Slug Pistol)/0/0/1
Pilot/3/25/1
Streetwise/2/27/0

Jack makes an Advancement Roll to raise his Computer Skill Level from 2 to 3. The 3-level confers a -3 difficulty to the roll, but the two Experience Points confer a +2. Jack's player rolls a 10 (-3) (+2) for a result of 9. Jack raises his skill, and the Experience Points total is now reduced to 0.

Jack now makes an Advancement Roll to raise his Gun Combat (Slug Pistol) Skill Level from 0 to 1. The 1-level confers a -1 difficulty to the roll, but is offset by the one Experience Point. Jack's player rolls a 6 (-1) (+1) for a result of 6. While Jack doesn't raise the skill level, he does retain the Experience Point for a future attempt (once he earns another 50 Success Points).

Finally, you'll notice that Jack possesses one Experience Point for Pilot. He may attempt to advance that skill once he has earned 15 more success points, thereby increasing the number of experience Points to 2.

Jack's character sheet now looks like this:

Jack Starlight
Skill/Level/Success Points/Experience Points
Astrogation/2/35/0
Computers/3/5/0
Gun Combat (Slug Pistol)/0/0/1
Pilot/3/25/1
Streetwise/2/27/0

Hope that helps someone looking for a quick and elegant mechanic for improving skill levels.

 

[BytePro]

My system is even simpler - if a PC seemed to have earned a new level or skill, make it so.

The RAW being highly illogical (harder to advance the more skilled and well rounded one is, being silly), I also looked to making a system based on actual use. But this begged the question of not only how many successful task checks, but the difficulty of those checks, the relative success and failure involved (since one learns from both), and the nature of those checks - i.e., was it all just the same silly, easy, task check over and over.

In actuality, I've never even done it, and the question has never arisen. When players are happy roleplaying, the mechanics just fade into the background.

Ultimately, if a player wanted to roleplay a more experienced PC, that is what we would do. The random nature of skill levels is just a way of providing a challenge to the player. Like an actor, they generally take what they are given and make it work, though there may be some negotiation as to what they want to act.

Back in the day, the thing about classic traveller that appealed to us, over other games, was that the goal of playing was really about roleplay, not achieving a higher score (level). If you wanted to roleplay a more experienced PC - you rolled it, or otherwise just created it as desired. Unlike D&D and the like where everyone started from a low level and then advanced as part of the goal of playing the game - Traveller starts from any level, nullifying the 'accomplishment' of advancement. This also eliminated another aspect of game 'accounting' and rule mechanics.

YMMV, of course, just relating what works for us.

P.S. - you might stipulate in step D that Skill Advancement Roll is only an option if Experience Points have been gained (that is what seems to be stated in the examples).

 

[Fox's Master]

Advancement made easy!

BytePro

I did LOL when I read your 'my system is even simpler' comment.

There are a number of folks out here (and elsewhere) who truly enjoy the experience of playing without having to track skill successes, but believe me, there's also a large contingent (Aramis, I'm looking at you buddy) of pplayers who absolutely live for either accounting, or getting into the minutiae of cargo tons, space flight, and myriad other items which I personally find absurd, as we're already engaged in playing a game which possesses scores of elements which exist only in our mind (i.e. Jump Travel).

Having said all of that, I'm a role player of 30+ years, weaned on D&D, Top Secret, and a few others. Everyday, we face challenges and make decisions. While I certainly do appreciate the "role" aspect of role-playing, I'm also enamored by the idea of attaining a goal and improving the character. You're absolutely right, it should not become the center-piece, nor should any other game mechanic, but it's worthwhile seeing the character improve in some small way. You and I have improved certain skills in our lifetime, why not Jack Starlight?

Take care, and Happy Playing!

 

[robject]

[...]I'm also enamored by the idea of attaining a goal and improving the character. [...]

Agreed; that said, goal achievement in Traveller tends to be less crunchy in this respect than other games, because characteristic and skill improvement are typically grouped with the other game-advancing goals such as saving the world, or striking it rich, or building the ultimate supercool starship, or being granted a feifdom, or finding that long lost artifact, or becoming a trade magnate, or taking down a corrupt megacorp...

In other words, if it's a good fit for the campaign, then beefing up one's character in some manner should be an attainable goal set by the referee for the player(s). But typically it's not an end to itself, but rather serves to benefit the adventure.

Granted, lots of D&D players are used to levelling up. In the previous paragraphs, I've tried to explain that Traveller isn't naturally like that, tho experience points can of course be grafted on. If you are willing to accept it, Traveller typically changes the paradigm by discouraging skill and characteristic improvement. Of course Your Mileage May Vary, and there are always loopholes.

 

[Fox's Master]

Point taken

Robject,

Over the years, I've noticed the subtle differences between those who play D&D and those who gravitate toward Traveller, and having a system with less "crunch" vis-a-vis skill advancement is one of the more obvious examples. However, our group from Philly very much enjoyed the opportunity to advance oneself...as part of the overall campaign.

One of the things that sets the two systems apart is that in D&D or most other RPGs, the DM raises the difficulty level of the adventures as the story progresses (monsters become more difficult, traps may cause higher damage values, the bad guys, too are more powerful). Traveller changes all of that, because nobody else in the universe is advancing their skills either. Again, it goes back to playing a game in which the motto is "Ordinary people living in extraordinary times." My take is simply this...as we're living as ordinary people, the game serves as a outlet to become extraordinary.

FM

 

[McPerth]

I like Foxx Master's proposal here, though I've personally made it a little more difficult to attain a new level and modified it by character's intelligence, but that's a matter of oppinion...

On thing it doesn't resolve (IMO) is the use of instruction skill (described in Mercenary).

I assume that, in your system, from unskilled you go to level 0, not to level 1 as in chargen. One proposal whould be to reduce the unskilled penalty (-3 DM) by 1 per experience point in that skill (so when 3 experience points have been accrued, yo have the facto skill 0 on that skill.

 

[whartung]

Well, part of the problem is that in D&D "hit points" is a higher level concept than simply "health". As you level, you "get better" and as you get better, you get "harder to kill". This is manifested through the hit point attribute. Extra parrying and ducking and dodging and more endurance and skill to cling and clang weapons etc.

D&D is also very heroic. If you've watched the LoTR movies, that's classic D&D high level characters vs low level characters, munchkining their way to glory.

In a game like traveller where it's dominated by firearms, lethal is as lethal does. You can possibly equip something like Battle Dress, but you're still a pink, gooey center to the hard shell of the armor.

Traveller basically assumes that you're learning and training during the char gen process. But there's not much available to get someone from Mechanic-2 to Mechanic-3. I think it's simply time frame involved. Sure, you CAN adventure for several years, just not sure how many actually do.

 

[Fox's Master]

To McPerth,

Yes, with enough exposure, one moves from "Untrained" to Level 0, thus shedding the detrimental -3 penalty. Attributes, too, may be raised but demand many more successes (~ 20 times the next number; thus to advance your Strength from '7' to '8' would require 160 points worth of successes). For game play this is critical as an increase in Dexterity would have implications for a number of Skills.

Instruction may be incorporated by adding some number of "success" points to the Skill. Thus, Jack has used his weapon effectively in combat, earning 35 points for "Gun Combat" during the previous adventure. During his down-time, he may pursue some personalized training. Jack makes a Gun Combat check with an Intelligence modifier applied to it. If he passes the check (standard 8+), add the "Effect" to a d6 and that result is added to the Skill's Success Points (this is completely optional, but you gte the idea for incorporating the instruction aspect).

To whartung,

I agree that D&D is heroic and I'm not trying to turn every pilot into Han Solo, but the subtle movement forward has many benefits to players and their morale.