Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Cryton, as I have not been able to mine my garage for my 1977 set of LBBs, I found a set online and it is one the way. Thanks for bringing some of the early rules back to mind.
IMTU. A new (old) start
- Thread starter Cryton
- Start date
You're welcome.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
My 1977 LBBs arrived today, and my 600 Ton Subsidized Merchant it in them. Nice to have the Jump Drive de-coupled from the Power Plant. I get my Jump-3 capability, but the Power Plant-1 saves me 15 tons of volume, 40 Million Credits, and 20 tons of fuel volume. The smaller power plant gives me 10 dTons of volume left in the engineering spaces, even with the larger Jump Drive. With that I can add my Power Plant A at 4 dTons for ship's power, along with a cubic meter of Heavy Water for operating it for a year or so, and I still have room left over.
Now to work up a Jump Torpedo for emergency message use.
Ok. I think it is finally time to open the next :CoW: IMTU.
How the Navy operates IMTU in a top-down review.
At the top of the "food-chain" is the Emperor. The guy who every Noble in the Imperium but a few exceptions (Domain order Knights and Baronets), and the guy ALL Imperial Admirals hold direct fealty to. He says "Jump", you just do.
Next are the Sector Dukes. Owing Fealty only to the Emperor himself, Sector Dukes give orders to the Admirals of the Fleets of the Imperial Sector Navy of their Sector, with the charge of Defending the Imperium, enforcing Red Zones, fighting wars against foes of the Imperium, and enforcing the Emperors will.
Sub-sector Dukes are the next level down. Also owing fealty to only the Emperor himself, Sub-sector Dukes give orders to the Admiral of the Sub-sector Navy of their Sub-sector (a separate fleet from those of the Sector Navy) with the charge of Defending their sub-sector, piracy suppression, acting as a reserve fleet for the its Sector Navy, and enforcing the Emperors will.
The Imperial Scout service answers only to the Emperor himself, and they are charged with Providing courier service, survey/census data, and exploration for the Imperium. They have the reputation for being the "Eyes, ears and mouth of the Emperor himself". The Scouts can, and do, work closely with local Naval Fleets and Imperial Nobels, both during war and in times of peace. Imperial warrants, when they appear, are most often found in the hands of Imperial Scouts.
Imperial Dukes, Counts, Marquis and Barons may maintain personal forces called Housecarls (as close as you get to Imperial Army IMTU) for both their own defense and the defense of Imperial interests in their fiefs. System defense squadrons, if any, are given their orders by the local Imperial Noble. Counts, Marquises and Barons may call upon the local Sub-Sector Duke, or Sector Duke for Naval aid as required, and are in fact expected to know when to do so.
That's it so far. Comments?
How the Navy operates IMTU in a top-down review.
At the top of the "food-chain" is the Emperor. The guy who every Noble in the Imperium but a few exceptions (Domain order Knights and Baronets), and the guy ALL Imperial Admirals hold direct fealty to. He says "Jump", you just do.
Next are the Sector Dukes. Owing Fealty only to the Emperor himself, Sector Dukes give orders to the Admirals of the Fleets of the Imperial Sector Navy of their Sector, with the charge of Defending the Imperium, enforcing Red Zones, fighting wars against foes of the Imperium, and enforcing the Emperors will.
Sub-sector Dukes are the next level down. Also owing fealty to only the Emperor himself, Sub-sector Dukes give orders to the Admiral of the Sub-sector Navy of their Sub-sector (a separate fleet from those of the Sector Navy) with the charge of Defending their sub-sector, piracy suppression, acting as a reserve fleet for the its Sector Navy, and enforcing the Emperors will.
The Imperial Scout service answers only to the Emperor himself, and they are charged with Providing courier service, survey/census data, and exploration for the Imperium. They have the reputation for being the "Eyes, ears and mouth of the Emperor himself". The Scouts can, and do, work closely with local Naval Fleets and Imperial Nobels, both during war and in times of peace. Imperial warrants, when they appear, are most often found in the hands of Imperial Scouts.
Imperial Dukes, Counts, Marquis and Barons may maintain personal forces called Housecarls (as close as you get to Imperial Army IMTU) for both their own defense and the defense of Imperial interests in their fiefs. System defense squadrons, if any, are given their orders by the local Imperial Noble. Counts, Marquises and Barons may call upon the local Sub-Sector Duke, or Sector Duke for Naval aid as required, and are in fact expected to know when to do so.
That's it so far. Comments?
I do not normally rely on the OTU, but IMO, there's more color when the Dukes aren't tied to mapping conventions.
Try this on for size:
Duke of Mora's enfeoffment is:
Likewise Marquis Rorise is another of Mora's vassals, and holds Rorise, Brodie, and Somem.
Baron Powaza holds just that one system as Mora's vassal.
Count of Palique holds Pelique, Nexine, Mainz, Pedase, and Tussinian but is not a vassal of Mora, nor of Trin either.
Just a thought
Try this on for size:
Duke of Mora's enfeoffment is:
- those 6 stars in the upper left corner of Star Lane subsector
- everything in Mora subsector except Natoko, Heroni, Fosey, Byret in the upper left,
- And except Fenl's Green, Palique, Mainz, Pedase, Nexine in the lower right.
- Perhaps he acquired Maitz, Meleto, and that chain over to Pimane by marriage
Likewise Marquis Rorise is another of Mora's vassals, and holds Rorise, Brodie, and Somem.
Baron Powaza holds just that one system as Mora's vassal.
Count of Palique holds Pelique, Nexine, Mainz, Pedase, and Tussinian but is not a vassal of Mora, nor of Trin either.
Just a thought
And you can complicate it further.
Let's say Vice-Admiral the Baroness Meleto is in command of the xxth (pick a number) Fleet in that area, and happens to be Mora's sister-in-law. She might feel more loyalty to Mora if she likes her sister and brother-in-law and be willing to go beyond her formal duties for him.
Let's say Vice-Admiral the Baroness Meleto is in command of the xxth (pick a number) Fleet in that area, and happens to be Mora's sister-in-law. She might feel more loyalty to Mora if she likes her sister and brother-in-law and be willing to go beyond her formal duties for him.
I do not normally rely on the OTU, but IMO, there's more color when the Dukes aren't tied to mapping conventions.
Try this on for size:
Duke of Mora's enfeoffment is:
Count of Daumier is a vassal of Mora, and his enfeoffment is those 6 stars in Star Lane.
- those 6 stars in the upper left corner of Star Lane subsector
- everything in Mora subsector except Natoko, Heroni, Fosey, Byret in the upper left,
- And except Fenl's Green, Palique, Mainz, Pedase, Nexine in the lower right.
- Perhaps he acquired Maitz, Meleto, and that chain over to Pimane by marriage
Likewise Marquis Rorise is another of Mora's vassals, and holds Rorise, Brodie, and Somem.
Baron Powaza holds just that one system as Mora's vassal.
Count of Palique holds Pelique, Nexine, Mainz, Pedase, and Tussinian but is not a vassal of Mora, nor of Trin either.
Just a thought
IMTU,I see no need for things to be that complex. Barons, Counts, ect., are not vassals of anyone but the Emperor. So your system, while interesting, doesn't apply in the least here. IMTU, a Title is a title, what it represents is how much trust and faith the Emperor has in you and what he is willing to place in your care. It is NOT a social placement in a traditional feudal system, so Barons do not report to the Marquis, Counts do not have Marquis and Barons for vassals, nor do they report to the Dukes. All nobles report to the Emperor.
IMTU, the Dukes are tied to the maps because they are charged with running the Imperial Navy in the name of the Emperor, and doing so keeps the focused on the job the Emperor has given them. To do otherwise is counter-intuitive and causes, IMO an unnecessarily complex system.
All nobles IMTU owe fealty directly to, and only to, the Emperor and no one else. They are assigned to their fiefs by the Emperor to act as as a direct representative of the Imperium (Read the Emperor) to the world. They make sure their assigned worlds pay their taxes, do not violate what few Imperial Laws that exist, manage whatever Imperial assets are on the worlds they are assigned, and act as a go-between for their assigned wold(s) and the Emperor as needed. They will work with other Nobles to resolve any disputes that may arise between the world(s) they are assigned and those of assigned to other Nobles, but mostly, they do very little, and reap great rewards from it. How they enforce Imperial will is by diplomacy, threat/use of force (calling in the Imperial Navy) or by Interdiction (Red Zoning the world in question).
It should also be noted, that when the Emperor ups your rank (Say from Baron to Marquis) he either assigns you another nearby world, or moves you to the new world(s) to which you are assigned, and then reassigns the world(s) you formerly represented to another Noble.
I understand that the Imperium I use, is not a Feudal system in anything but name. It is more a Technocracy than anything else. Those that agree to Imperial "rule" get to govern themselves (Provided they enforce a few common laws), are protected from outside threats, and gain access to travel and trade with over 11,000 worlds. Those that refuse rule by the Imperium, that are within its boarders, are Red Zoned, and NO ONE contacts them, nor are they allowed off of their world either. Threats to the Imperium that threaten it's stability are crushed without mercy.
Feudal systems historically are only 2-3 layers deep of nobles.
Layer 0: Sovereign
Layer 1: "Barons" (which includes Barons, Viscounts, Counts/Earls/Jarls), Royal knighthoods, Kngihts-Bannerette of the crown
Layer 2: knights and knights bannerettes
Layer 3: Vauvasar Knights (Knights of Bannerettes)
(Layer 4): the populace.
Note that, even when there are bannerettes with vassals, those vassal knights are created by the noble class only, never by the knights themselves. (But note as well - almost all historical barons-greater were also knights.)
So, if any nobleman has knights or other nobles assigned to answer to him, that's STILL feudal if it involves personal oaths, even if the answerable noble is created by the crown.
Also, historically, and completely unlike Bill Down's system, No greater baron ever was in fealty to anyone but the crown - Barons, Viscounts, Earls, Dukes - those greater barons all answer DIRECTLY to the crown.
Oh, and if you want to solve the issue of "Dukes answering to Dukes"... make the domain into a sector - eliminate the domain and use the Archduke for the sector. (complete with knighthood granting)...
Layer 0: Sovereign
Layer 1: "Barons" (which includes Barons, Viscounts, Counts/Earls/Jarls), Royal knighthoods, Kngihts-Bannerette of the crown
Layer 2: knights and knights bannerettes
Layer 3: Vauvasar Knights (Knights of Bannerettes)
(Layer 4): the populace.
Note that, even when there are bannerettes with vassals, those vassal knights are created by the noble class only, never by the knights themselves. (But note as well - almost all historical barons-greater were also knights.)
So, if any nobleman has knights or other nobles assigned to answer to him, that's STILL feudal if it involves personal oaths, even if the answerable noble is created by the crown.
Also, historically, and completely unlike Bill Down's system, No greater baron ever was in fealty to anyone but the crown - Barons, Viscounts, Earls, Dukes - those greater barons all answer DIRECTLY to the crown.
Oh, and if you want to solve the issue of "Dukes answering to Dukes"... make the domain into a sector - eliminate the domain and use the Archduke for the sector. (complete with knighthood granting)...
Last edited:
Point taken. So IMTU, the Imperium is a Feudal Technocracy, lol, imagine that.
Now that may be an idea I will use. Time to consider the ramifications IMTU of doing that.
I'd go with Aramis' solution- sectors are large enough to have resources and be able to trade space for time in the event of a war, small enough to not be able to rebel/incite civil war effectively, one layer of governance to focus on, and 16 subsector dukes is barely within reasonable span of control- enough to keep the sector archduke very busy and too many to likely get all of them to risk treason.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I guess the problem I see with your having all Nobles answering only to the Emperor is the huge communications lag within the Imperium. Assuming the subsector capital is located somewhere near the center of the subsector, it still could take a month or more for problems on a planet to reach the subsector head, three months for the sector capital, and maybe a year to reach Capital. That sort of time lag pretty much forces a devolution of authority to the Sector and Subsector leaders, with the ability to give orders which must be obeyed to lower-ranking nobles. Remember, the minimum communication time between 2 planets one parsec apart is going to be two weeks.
Actually, IIRC, 3I travel times are one year to Capital from Regina by J2, 6 months by J4, and 4 months by J6 (all one-way). Within a sub-sector, its either no more than four weeks round trip when using J4, or two weeks using J5 or J6 (providing the Sub-Sector Capital is near the center of the map). When taking into account J4 X-Boat use, and J6 military couriers, times are considerably shorter than by J2.
Yes, it takes time for the Emperor to respond, but the areas are in the control of Nobles he has either hand picked, or approved to continue their control of the area. He trusts them to do the right thing in his name. At worst, the longest a Noble can expect to get away with something for before response from the Emperor, is is about eight to twelve months tops. As for repercussions from Sub-sector and Sector Dukes, who will react on the Emperors behalf, much, much sooner. So really, in the scheme of things, about enough time for a really good adventure to be played out, and no longer.
Er, I'm no canonista, but I'm pretty sure it's 1 year one way on J4 X-boat messages and you get the faster times with the secret J6 service.
Course, you can shrink the Imperium down for an ATU. Might not even be a bad idea for a more viable polity.
Just checked http://travellermap.com using the route finder. (GREAT resource!)
Regina to Capital by J2 :154 parsecs - 83 jumps, by Jump 4: 154 parsecs - 39 jumps, by Jump 6: 154 parsecs — 26 jumps.
So longer than my original estimates, but not terribly so.
Hmmmph, I have 1980s Traveller Library Data running around in my head, I'd accept that map as definitive, assuming the calc program is correct and really routes, not direct distance measurement.
Thing actually gives a world name by world name list of the route. It's REALLY cool! Been making all sorts of routes just to check....best of them is the core expedition routes!
Keep in mind: assuming daily X-boats, slightly more than half of those are about 8 days per jump, due to waiting for the next one out. So, we can assume about 7.5 days per each for X-mail - at J4 - about 292 days - 10.5 Imperial months. The J6 we need to allow 8.5 for refuels (7.5 for the jumps, 1 for the refuel), so about 221 days, or 7.8 months.
Actually, that's not quite correct.
Example: Henry II, King of England and as such had no leige over him. However, as Duke of Normandy, Duke of Aquitaine, and Count D'Anjou, he was a vassal of thee King of France. This arrangement came to a head later under King John.
Example: Robert de Stafford, Baron Stafford, held 60 Knight's fees in the Oxford area. 3 of those were held by Henry II D'Oilly, Baron Hooknorton, NNW of Oxford, who also held 30 Knight's fees as tenant-in-chief from the King.
Of course, not of that matters if Cryton does not wish to use it - it's his ATU.
My main point earlier was to separate the titles from straight lines on a map to something more physical, like stellar clumping. I've never seen a map of any place where all of the boundaries were along lines of latitude and longitude.
My main point earlier was to separate the titles from straight lines on a map to something more physical, like stellar clumping. I've never seen a map of any place where all of the boundaries were along lines of latitude and longitude.
