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IMTU. A new (old) start

To be fair, the groundwork for GT's trade model was laid in '82 when TTB added the phrase "... interstellar travel will be as common as international travel is today." to LBB;1's Introduction.

To bad the only reason international travel is as common as it is today is because it takes less than 24 hours to get any urban area on the planet if you plan correctly, and nowhere you can't get within 48 hours.

Not so much in the Traveller Universe.
 
Not that post! You better be prepared for a lot of whining in your comments section!

I think the portion of the post I'm quoting is focused on enough on the points I'm making that it won't prove too horrible.

I'm still thinking through your broader points from that thread. I find them compelling, but I'm not as convinced as you are about some of your conclusions. (Thought this might be where the "almost" and other caveats come into play.)

In any case, the broader stuff doesn't interest me as much as how the rules in the game (all the random encounter tables, the easy character generation, the open ended nature of travel, the "prod to the imagination" UWPs, and specifically the Patron Encounter rules) all suggest a much looser, less planned "Run the Players through an Adventure" style of play than became prevalent once published modules became the template for the hobby. (Whether you bought them or used them for models to build your own at home.)

But we're way off topic now. I'm working on the post. It'll go up in a couple of weeks.
 
To bad the only reason international travel is as common as it is today is because it takes less than 24 hours to get any urban area on the planet if you plan correctly, and nowhere you can't get within 48 hours.

Not so much in the Traveller Universe.

I can think of several places that would take a bit more than 48 hours to get to or from on this planet. Admittedly, most of them are islands.

That does not effect the comment in a Traveller-based Universe however. Any system more than 4 parsecs from any other system is quite isolated.
 
I can think of several places that would take a bit more than 48 hours to get to or from on this planet. Admittedly, most of them are islands.

That does not effect the comment in a Traveller-based Universe however. Any system more than 4 parsecs from any other system is quite isolated.

If you have a hired lear-jet with the long-range fuel tanks option, and a parachute, there's NOWHERE you can't get TO in 48 hours.

Alternatively, a C5A with inflight refuelling can drop you anywhere but a few mountain tops... at 500 MPH, she can hit anywhere on planet in under 48 hours. Drop you on a chute-equipped sled. (Wrap in a mattress if you want

Getting out of, whole 'nother story... There are an awful lot of places one cannot get out of in under a week.

And a lot of places where the red tape takes longer than a week to get cleared...

But, at present, if you're able to provide the right credentials, there's no place you can't drop stuff within a 48 hour window.
 
If you have a hired lear-jet with the long-range fuel tanks option, and a parachute, there's NOWHERE you can't get TO in 48 hours.

Alternatively, a C5A with inflight refuelling can drop you anywhere but a few mountain tops... at 500 MPH, she can hit anywhere on planet in under 48 hours. Drop you on a chute-equipped sled. (Wrap in a mattress if you want

Getting out of, whole 'nother story... There are an awful lot of places one cannot get out of in under a week.

And a lot of places where the red tape takes longer than a week to get cleared...

But, at present, if you're able to provide the right credentials, there's no place you can't drop stuff within a 48 hour window.

Even when I was healthy, I had no interest whatsoever of jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft. I also believe that the C-5A is still operated only by the US Air Force, sometime ally of the other US military services, and is not available for civilian use. As for the Lear Jet, I will refrain from any comments, as I have no desire to be banned.
 
The problem that I have with the "large ship" universe of High Guard is the economics of merchant ships in that system. Consider a star ship version of the Paul R. Tregurtha Great Lakes bulk carrier. In 1981, she cost about $60 million to build, so I think I can assume about a straight Dollar to Imperial Credit ratio of 1 to 1.

In Traveller Displacement tons, she is about 7300 dTons. Her hull cost alone, at 100,000 Credit per dTon, assuming a Cylinder body shape, is 730 million Credits. Assuming Jump and Maneuver Drives at 1 each, they will each take up 2 per cent of the hull, while a Tech Level 9-12 power plant will be 3 per cent of the hull. That give 146 dTons for the Jump Drive, 146 dTons for the Maneuver Drive, and 219 tons for the Power Plant. The Bridge is equal to 2 per cent of the hull tonnage, so another 146 tons. Costs for this equipment and a computer is as follows.

Jump Drive 1 = 146 X 4 Million Credit per dTon = 584 Million Credits
Maneuver Drive 1 = 146 X 1.5 Million Credits per dTon = 219 Million Credits
Power Plant 1 = 219 X 3 Million Credits per dTon = 657 Million Credits
Bridge of 146 dTons at 5000 Credits per dTon of ship so 7300 X 5000 Credits = 36.5 Million Credits
Computer for a G Code Hull is a minimum of Computer 4, so another 30 Million Credits for the required computer. (The cost of the Bridge and Computer alone are greater than the cost of the RW ship.)

Just that costs a total of 2.2565 Billion Credits. As this is intended as a merchant ship, I have added no weapons nor hull armor, but I have not added any ship's vehicles nor any staterooms for the crew, which I have also not computed. That equals to 37.5 times the cost of the Tregurtha, and gives you a very basic bulk carrier, with a maximum of 26 jumps a year, assuming one jump every 2 weeks. The Tregurtha probably makes that many cargo carrying trips in the Great Lakes shipping season, as the big Lake boats run pretty much continuously.

Given the capital cost of the ship, plus operating expenses in terms of Traveller, how is the tentative ship discussed going to make sufficient money to pay for itself? Remember, it is a basic bulk carrier, designed to carry large amounts of cheap commodities like iron ore pellets or coal, costing much less that one thousand credits per ton.
 
The problem that I have with the "large ship" universe of High Guard is the economics of merchant ships in that system. Consider a star ship version of the Paul R. Tregurtha Great Lakes bulk carrier. In 1981, she cost about $60 million to build, so I think I can assume about a straight Dollar to Imperial Credit ratio of 1 to 1.

In Traveller Displacement tons, she is about 7300 dTons. Her hull cost alone, at 100,000 Credit per dTon, assuming a Cylinder body shape, is 730 million Credits. Assuming Jump and Maneuver Drives at 1 each, they will each take up 2 per cent of the hull, while a Tech Level 9-12 power plant will be 3 per cent of the hull. That give 146 dTons for the Jump Drive, 146 dTons for the Maneuver Drive, and 219 tons for the Power Plant. The Bridge is equal to 2 per cent of the hull tonnage, so another 146 tons. Costs for this equipment and a computer is as follows.

Jump Drive 1 = 146 X 4 Million Credit per dTon = 584 Million Credits
Maneuver Drive 1 = 146 X 1.5 Million Credits per dTon = 219 Million Credits
Power Plant 1 = 219 X 3 Million Credits per dTon = 657 Million Credits
Bridge of 146 dTons at 5000 Credits per dTon of ship so 7300 X 5000 Credits = 36.5 Million Credits
Computer for a G Code Hull is a minimum of Computer 4, so another 30 Million Credits for the required computer. (The cost of the Bridge and Computer alone are greater than the cost of the RW ship.)

Just that costs a total of 2.2565 Billion Credits. As this is intended as a merchant ship, I have added no weapons nor hull armor, but I have not added any ship's vehicles nor any staterooms for the crew, which I have also not computed. That equals to 37.5 times the cost of the Tregurtha, and gives you a very basic bulk carrier, with a maximum of 26 jumps a year, assuming one jump every 2 weeks. The Tregurtha probably makes that many cargo carrying trips in the Great Lakes shipping season, as the big Lake boats run pretty much continuously.

Given the capital cost of the ship, plus operating expenses in terms of Traveller, how is the tentative ship discussed going to make sufficient money to pay for itself? Remember, it is a basic bulk carrier, designed to carry large amounts of cheap commodities like iron ore pellets or coal, costing much less that one thousand credits per ton.

I am sorry to say this, but none of this has anything to do with a Small Ship, Low Trade Universe designed using the CT rules, nor with the game perimeters set up by those rules or with the game mechanics used by them either. While interesting, I do not see any relevance at all for use IMTU as I am not using a Large Ship, High Trade model IMTU.
 
I am sorry to say this, but none of this has anything to do with a Small Ship, Low Trade Universe designed using the CT rules, nor with the game perimeters set up by those rules or with the game mechanics used by them either. While interesting, I do not see any relevance at all for use IMTU as I am not using a Large Ship, High Trade model IMTU.

Basically. it is why I do not see that a Large Ship universe works. My apologies for not making that clearer.
 
The problem that I have with the "large ship" universe of High Guard is the economics of merchant ships in that system. Consider a star ship version of the Paul R. Tregurtha Great Lakes bulk carrier. In 1981, she cost about $60 million to build, so I think I can assume about a straight Dollar to Imperial Credit ratio of 1 to 1.

In Traveller Displacement tons, she is about 7300 dTons. Her hull cost alone, at 100,000 Credit per dTon, assuming a Cylinder body shape, is 730 million Credits. Assuming Jump and Maneuver Drives at 1 each, they will each take up 2 per cent of the hull, while a Tech Level 9-12 power plant will be 3 per cent of the hull. That give 146 dTons for the Jump Drive, 146 dTons for the Maneuver Drive, and 219 tons for the Power Plant. The Bridge is equal to 2 per cent of the hull tonnage, so another 146 tons. Costs for this equipment and a computer is as follows.

Jump Drive 1 = 146 X 4 Million Credit per dTon = 584 Million Credits
Maneuver Drive 1 = 146 X 1.5 Million Credits per dTon = 219 Million Credits
Power Plant 1 = 219 X 3 Million Credits per dTon = 657 Million Credits
Bridge of 146 dTons at 5000 Credits per dTon of ship so 7300 X 5000 Credits = 36.5 Million Credits
Computer for a G Code Hull is a minimum of Computer 4, so another 30 Million Credits for the required computer. (The cost of the Bridge and Computer alone are greater than the cost of the RW ship.)

Just that costs a total of 2.2565 Billion Credits. As this is intended as a merchant ship, I have added no weapons nor hull armor, but I have not added any ship's vehicles nor any staterooms for the crew, which I have also not computed. That equals to 37.5 times the cost of the Tregurtha, and gives you a very basic bulk carrier, with a maximum of 26 jumps a year, assuming one jump every 2 weeks. The Tregurtha probably makes that many cargo carrying trips in the Great Lakes shipping season, as the big Lake boats run pretty much continuously.

Given the capital cost of the ship, plus operating expenses in terms of Traveller, how is the tentative ship discussed going to make sufficient money to pay for itself? Remember, it is a basic bulk carrier, designed to carry large amounts of cheap commodities like iron ore pellets or coal, costing much less that one thousand credits per ton.


Change a couple of parameters and it is VERY doable.

Biggest one is get them off the finance plan, built from cash in pocket or low cost financing by megacorps or governments.

Second is not assume they are on some tramp steamer/break bulk economics, but rather a fixed route with a given contract that the ships was expressly built for.

In the case of a bulk freighter as postulated, something like say metals from an asteroid belt 1 parsec away to a terraforming project, or a government subsisdized run from an ag planet to a mining/industrial facility on a non-ag planet.

Back of the envelope calc without pricing it all out, I figure it breaks even at 20 years. For our terraformers, that might be one project, or 4 5-year projects.

It could pay off in less time if there is rapid turnaround with two crews and fast attaching cargo modules/containers.

Or if the cargo is that much more valuable items like radioactives.

Costs can be dropped with a dispersed structure, that's good for a few years off.

Finally, the existence of such ships shouldn't affect the players that much. That's because the players are in the break bulk small lots irregular business, and giant freighters are on regular routes and times with predictable virtually guaranteed loads.

If the players are looking to break into the major shipping business it counts, but otherwise it should be 'captain, Edmund Fitzgerald bearing 42 at 2 LS, 7300-ton out of Orion Belt, likely a load of Iridium for the atmo processors on Canopus IV', background fluff or potentially adventure for salvage/rescue (or they rescue the players).

Make them incidental encounters, maybe 1 out of 10, and they just add color. No need to banish, OR make a big deal of their existence.
 
Given the capital cost of the ship, plus operating expenses in terms of Traveller, how is the tentative ship discussed going to make sufficient money to pay for itself?

supply and demand, son, supply and demand. if it's more profitable for the stock-holders to value-add elsewhere and then ship it, that's what will happen. for example, is it more profitable to manufacture flat screen tv's here in the united states, or to ship all the materials to china, manufacture them there, and then ship them to the united states for sale? check out that $1.25 box of nuts and bolts, you'd think the united states with all its expertise and capacity could manufacture them more profitably in the u.s., but no, it's more profitable to ship them across the ocean from china.

consider agriculture, u.s. vs africa. most africans still are able to grow food on their little plots, it costs them almost nothing to do so - but food from america is so cheap that it's more profitable for them to pay for american food shipped all the way across the atlantic than to grow their own anymore. african agriculture, such as it was, is devastated.

consider hawaii. has nothing, is nothing - 'cept all the tourists go there for the sun and beaches and isolation. so everything - everything! - is shipped in. why? so tourists can spend their money in comfort. heh, the cargo ships dead-head back to wherever they came from, and it's STILL profitable for them to ship there - wood, cement, glass, fertilizer (FERTILIZER! LIKE HAWAII CAN'T MAKE IT'S OWN FERTILIZER!). walk into walmart, buy a bottle of peanuts grown in georgia. heh, the place even has a naval base, supported absolutely by imports and not by anything on the islands themselves.

supply and demand and profit make the ships fly.
 
Ok folks, please move the discussion of Large Ship, High Trade elsewhere. It has no place in this thread. I understand that it is interesting, and you guys are passionate about it, but please start a new thread of your own.

Do not make me have to do the one thing anyone who opens an IMTU thread can to end the conversation of that topic.
 
I thought Roseanne had a nut farm in Hawaii.

There are a variety of plantations that seem improbable in Hawaii... including one that raises a passable substitute for Kobe Beef, and at similar prices.

Likewise someone tried to grow Oranges in Alaska. The Trees had no problem, but the fruit never developed in time...

And while cabbage grows REALLY well in Alaska, most of the cabbage sold in Alaska is from out of state.
 
Ok folks, please move the discussion of Large Ship, High Trade elsewhere. It has no place in this thread. I understand that it is interesting, and you guys are passionate about it, but please start a new thread of your own.

Do not make me have to do the one thing anyone who opens an IMTU thread can to end the conversation of that topic.

At one time in the early 1980s, I worked up a trading game for Traveller using the small-ship universe and the data on the Spinward Main from Twilight's Peak. However, that was pre-computer days, and also pre-move to new house days, so where that is is unknown. Basically, it was a case of analyzing what any given planet would be looking for in terms of cargo and trade goods, and what did it have to offer in exchange. I will see what I can do to resurrect it, if you would like.

The other thing is that I am now looking at star ports based on experience in the Solomon Islands, considering the capital of Honiara to be a D-class port, with surrounding islands being E-class ports. The real trade with small ships like a Free Trader or Far Trader is from C-class or better starports to the D and E class of ports. There you would have what I would call the need for "break-bulk" ships rather than container ships going to A and B class ports on worlds with High Populations.

Honiara will get one small freighter every two weeks or so, along with a small tanker or barge load of Diesel fuel at the same rate. The containers of the small cargo ship would be broken down, and a ship similar to a WW2 Landing Craft Tank would load packages, pallets, and 55-gallon drums of Diesel fuel and gasoline for distribution to the other islands. For those interest in faster travel among the islands, there were a couple of charter boats for passenger and small package (and I do not mean smuggling) delivery.

Depending on the cost of Grav vehicles (maybe another thread), I suspect that hydrocarbon-based vehicles are going to be around in the future.
 
At one time in the early 1980s, I worked up a trading game for Traveller using the small-ship universe and the data on the Spinward Main from Twilight's Peak. However, that was pre-computer days, and also pre-move to new house days, so where that is is unknown. Basically, it was a case of analyzing what any given planet would be looking for in terms of cargo and trade goods, and what did it have to offer in exchange. I will see what I can do to resurrect it, if you would like.

I appreciate the thought, but I am going to pass. My players generally do not need that level of detail, and with my play-style, making up the details up on the spot based on a few basic rolls, is far, far easier and less time-consuming than checking what would amount to be pages of extra data.

The other thing is that I am now looking at star ports based on experience in the Solomon Islands, considering the capital of Honiara to be a D-class port, with surrounding islands being E-class ports. The real trade with small ships like a Free Trader or Far Trader is from C-class or better starports to the D and E class of ports. There you would have what I would call the need for "break-bulk" ships rather than container ships going to A and B class ports on worlds with High Populations.

Honiara will get one small freighter every two weeks or so, along with a small tanker or barge load of Diesel fuel at the same rate. The containers of the small cargo ship would be broken down, and a ship similar to a WW2 Landing Craft Tank would load packages, pallets, and 55-gallon drums of Diesel fuel and gasoline for distribution to the other islands. For those interest in faster travel among the islands, there were a couple of charter boats for passenger and small package (and I do not mean smuggling) delivery.

That is an interesting model to be working from. I hope it works for you and your players, but like I said, a bit to detailed for my use.

Depending on the cost of Grav vehicles (maybe another thread), I suspect that hydrocarbon-based vehicles are going to be around in the future.

Hehe, that's definitely a topic for another thread, but I have the same suspicions myself.
 
A question for you Cryton, if I may.
How much proto-Traveller stuff are you using IYTU?
Adventures 1-3 have some very interesting library data that was retconned with the release of the Library Data supplements (which by the way is one of the points of departure of the 'modern' 3I with the pT 3I).
How about the original Spinward Marches - do you use it or do you have your own subsectors for your players to stomp around in?
 
Adventures 1-3 have some very interesting library data that was retconned with the release of the Library Data supplements (which by the way is one of the points of departure of the 'modern' 3I with the pT 3I).


Oooh... good point Mike. Among many others, there's the (in)famous description of Capital - not Sylea - in A:1 about it controlling the only crossing point in the Great Rift for "thousands of parsecs".
 
If I had to pick one library data entry to sum up how I view the pT Imperium it has to be - the Forboldn project:
Forboldn Project: The primary colonization project within the Regina subsector.
Originally conceived in 987 to utilize the resources of Forboldn (0208), the project
began its execution phase in 1089, shortly after the Fourth Frontier War. Large
numbers of colonists were recruited and shipped in cold sleep from the Imperial
core, with arrival times set from 1110 to 1120
. Simultaneously, preparations on
Forboldn began, with detailed planetary surveys to pinpoint resources and initial
building projects to prepare industry and quarters for the arrival of colonists.
An interesting aspect of such colonization projects is the recruitment method
used to supply the personnel who will actually make the colony function. Since
virtually no amount of money will entice an individual to leave his home and
livelihood for the bleak desolation of a colony world, the Ministry of Colonization
has established several programs to produce colonists. Most obvious is the colonize
in lieu of prison term program
. However, several other programs have also shown
signs of success. In the unemployment insurance program, high population worlds
have successfully used the colonization project as a means of reducing unemployment
over the long term
. In a similar medical insurance program, indigents
unable to obtain medical treatment are provided with their needs in exchange for
signing on to a colony
. The needs of a colony for skills are met through the
anagathics program; qualified (and aged) individuals can be provided with
anagathics to extend their life spans in return for their providing such skills as
administration, mechanical crafts, or medical expertise
. Finally land grants to
retiring veterans has provided a cadre for the new colony's military and police
forces.
What an epic adventure waiting to be written.
 
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