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Ine Givar

Sure, but
1. they could move in if a power vacuum occured
2. they'd expect factions to form, probably one on their end of the universe under Norris - this is probably what happened in the last major Civil War in the Empire
3. Their territorial security aims are served either way - no major enemy threat... maybe some small independent ones.... [/QB]
1. The power vaccum would be what they would have feared most. Fearing that instability may endanger borders and that a newly crowned Emperor could engage in expansion & consolidation of the Imperium. Hence, many shadow games were orchestrated to keep Norris in power and isolated. And, by the time the Empress Wave/baddies from the Core/Zhodani Civil War was washing up bodies in the Coreward regions, it was neccessary to make peace and move across the frontier...but in terms of expansion, their first thought was Coreward and when those options failed it was time to think Rimward.

2. The expectation of factions was also a danger to the High Council. What if Norris was a solid Zhodophobic. Luckily, the Prime Minister/lover was a psionic therefore somewhat more disposed to the Zhodani.

3. Space for expansion was not neccessarily a Zhodani priority. The first priority would be to diffuse a TL F civilization more evenly throughout the Consulate. After the loss of the 5FW, strategists would have in some part blamed the loss on inadequate equipment. Therefore, to build up the industrial reserve, it was neccessary to open a trading relationship with the Imperium. However, Stephon & Norris together presented a solid anti-Zhodani front. However, if a more favourable government was installed in Capital, one could see the dismissal of Norris and the beginning of normalizing relations with the Consulate.

If you read the JTAS article on Zhodani philosophies one can see this as longer term goal, until the military stuck their foot into places that they shouldn't have.
 
Yeah - Challenge MT:Rebellion coverage sucked - Almost everything in it could have been Classic Traveller with the exception of the Charles Gannon stuff.

I always thought that the editors of Challenge didn't like the Rebellion concept and so didnt commission articles for the mileu. That and Challenge had a 'war gamer' feel to it that JTAS never had (probably coz T2K was very successful at the time). Still, The Digest was always better written as a tool for RPGing (in my view).
 
Originally posted by Kafka47:
1. The power vaccum would be what they would have feared most. Fearing that instability may endanger borders and that a newly crowned Emperor could engage in expansion & consolidation of the Imperium. Hence, many shadow games were orchestrated to keep Norris in power and isolated.
If there was a Civil War, Imperial history suggests it would go on for quite a time, and the Empire beaten senseless in the process (at least the military shattered and factionalized and not really capable of a heavy operational tempo thereafter). I think if you study your Imperial history memclips, you'll find that most expansions happened during eras of relative peace (or when the Empire won a huge war with an external power, thus seizing their property). Generally after civil strife, there was a period of inactivity.

2. The expectation of factions was also a danger to the High Council. What if Norris was a solid Zhodophobic. Luckily, the Prime Minister/lover was a psionic therefore somewhat more disposed to the Zhodani.
If you don't thing SORAG and the other Zhodani intel apparati had a huge file on every Imperial Officer of flag rank, especially those with noble blood, you're not giving them due credit. I think they'd have a good idea that Norris was no Zhodanophobe.

3. Space for expansion was not neccessarily a Zhodani priority.
Did I say it was? I said their territorial *security* aims would be served. They didn't care about expansion of their own, but they cared about Imperial expansion very much.

The first priority would be to diffuse a TL F civilization more evenly throughout the Consulate. After the loss of the 5FW, strategists would have in some part blamed the loss on inadequate equipment.
And it would have been blamed on a pile of other factors too. They may be mindbenders, but they are surely human.

Therefore, to build up the industrial reserve, it was neccessary to open a trading relationship with the Imperium.
I'm sure trade has existed between the two since before either were formally what they now are (1116) in those areas. I'm sure the wars interrupted this, but some kinds of trade then became very valuable (rare stuff, weapons, and information).

I don't think this was a revolutionary happening.

However, Stephon & Norris together presented a solid anti-Zhodani front.
Not unexpected, for the Emperor to support his chosen Archduke. More surprising if it happened the other way.

However, if a more favourable government was installed in Capital, one could see the dismissal of Norris and the beginning of normalizing relations with the Consulate.
I give them a lot of credit, but not that much clout at the Imperial Core. It's easier to stage an assassination and remember they'd only be supporting someone ELSE's plans to rise to power, rather than initiating and planning the entire play themselves. The inside man (in this case prime mover) would not be them, and that makes it a lot more supportable.

If you read the JTAS article on Zhodani philosophies one can see this as longer term goal, until the military stuck their foot into places that they shouldn't have.
I'm not saying, when I say the Zhodani would support this kind of relationship with Dulinor, that it was a 'civil' support - I highly suspect the support would be military/intelligence community oriented, and perhaps even unknown to the ruling Zhos. After all, what happens past the borders of the Consulate stays out there, yes?
 
I've always considered the Ine Givar as an organisation that simply does not exist, but pretends to. It is a myth propogated by Imperial Intelligence services and bought into by some political activists who don't know any better. As a result there are lots of activities around the Imperium that are attributed to the Ine Givar, and there are many organisations that call themselves the Ine Givar, but in truth there is no such thing, no one organisation. A myth that has become a strange sort of distorted reality.
 
I like that view Ben, very interesting. Kind of an excuse for Imperial Intelligence to get away with alittle bit more in the Marches than would be usual...

Shane
 
I treat the Ine Givar as a rough equivalent of Communist parties. Some groups engage in armed struggles of various kinds. Others are able to engage in democratic politics, even win elections, and occasionally not be overthrown.

The Imperium is an oligarchy, economically dominated by the megacorps. In addition, there is widespread and systematic speciesism, with groups like the Vargr and the "Dandies" of Junidy routinely facing various forms of oppression. In addition, of course, you can be lynched or lobotomised simply for developing your natural psionic talents...

Opposition to one or most aspects of this is inevitable. The Ine Givar are merely the most radical expression of this opposition.

They are, however, extremely factionalised. This has gotten worse since the Fifth Frontier War. Many groups took up arms in support of the Zhodani during this war, and lost heavily. Other groups refused to do so, effectively swearing allegiance to the Imperium.

There are also cultural differences. IMTU, many of the Imperial worlds near the Sword Worlds are culturally very similar to the Sword Worlds. In fact, they were settled at the same time as the Sword Worlds, by the same people. Subsequent Imperial colonisation has diluted this a little, but hasn't essentially changed the fact that these are more or less Sword World/Solomani inhabited worlds. Similarly, there are many Vargr on other worlds. That status of Vargr on these worlds is in many cases an important political issue. The Ine Givar often has considerable influence amongst Vargr and their sympathisers on these worlds. (Actually, they mainly work through alliances with Vargr groups, because of charisma issues, but that's another story...)

Other groups are heavily oriented towards psionics' rights, and are (usually) pro-Zhodani. A few groups look to Arden as something of a model. Other groups are rather isolationist.

Various intelligence services are involved with them at one level or another. The Imperium has found them difficult to infiltrate, but seems to have done so on occasion. At least a few of the IG's most notorious actions were undertaken by Imperial intelligence agents, seeking to discredit the organisation. Other agents probably attempt to influence individual groups in more moderate directions. The Zhodani cooperate with them, of course. They supply training and provide material assistance to approved groups, and generally attempt to sway the IG's agenda in their direction. The Sword Worlds, Arden, and various Vargr worlds do the same, according to their resources.

And then there are the Solomani supremacists...

In theory, the Ine Givar and the Solomani supremacists are the deadliest of enemies. The IG is a firmly democratic, pansophontist organisation, dedicated to defending the rights of Imperial subjects, regardless of their species or "race". The Solomani groups aren't.

Groups like Rule of Terra and Superioriti frequently engage in terrorist attacks on Vargr and other non-human communities. Frequently, Ine Givar led militias will attempt to stop them. The result is a kind of low-key, sporadic interstellar war.

On the other hand, some IG groups are inclined to conciliate with the Solomani supremacists. This is particularly true of the groups influenced by the Sword Worlds. As I suggested above, they are often operating on (and recruiting from) worlds with a heavily Solomani population, leading (in many cases) to a certain identification with local attitudes. That's not universal, of course. There are also groups that are as scrupulously pansophontist as you could possibly want.

Anyway, I could sit here all day...

The main faction I use in my games is the "Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti)".

I will break that down for you. First, because of the factionalisation, there can be more than one Ine Givar leadership body operating in a particular location! In this case, we are dealing with a collection of groups organised around the "Regina Regional Committee".

So, what's a "region"? Well, the idea is that Imperial subsectors aren't always "natural" divisions for military/political purposes. The Regina region is more or less the rimward end of Regina subsector, and various worlds in Jewell, Vilis and Lanth subsectors. Rimward Vilis is dominated by a different faction.

OK, so, what is "Solidariti"? Often, particular factions are identified by aspects of their particular programs, by the names of their publications, or by their most prominent front groups. In the case of Solidariti, it's all three! This is a strenuously pansophontist group, with strong alliances with Vargr groups, and a bitter enmity with the Solomani supremacists. They also orient to mass democratic organisations and movements. So their platform is pansophontist and popular solidarity. The spelling "Solidariti" was adopted as a specific reaction to the human supremacist group "Superioriti", and is meant to symbolise different species standing together in unity, blah blah blah...

RRCIG(S) has an armed wing, but generally prefers to support and participate in local insurrections. As such, they seldom engage in acts of "terrorism", but have been known to make exceptions. Hence the joke: "Q: Where does Baron Delgado-Tukera go for his holidays? A: All over Jenghe." (When claiming responsibility for the Baron's assassination, the RRCIG(S) pointed out that while assassination wasn't their policy, they made an exception in this case.)

Most of their activities are "peaceful", "democratic" activities. Inevitably, this means that their members have a very short life expectancy, and a high probability of spending time in prison, being beaten, tortured or just generally being worked over.

But they have their successes, too... Of course, the actual RRCIG(S) can't lay claim to them, since they are an illegal organisation, and they tend to get attributed to their front groups, or, more often, to their more respectable liberal allies.

Oh, yes, and of course, more traditional "bad guy terrorists" are out there too, including on the turf of the RRCIG(S). "Terrorist hunter" PCs who work for the Imperium are equally likely to be assigned to destroy the RRCIG(S) as they are to fight mad nuclear bombers.

Finally, the Rebellion: most IG factions condemned all of the Rebellion factions. After all, the latter are just different cliques of nobles. A few had mild sympathies with Dulinor, or even Brzk. A more serious matter was the sympathy many IG members felt with the Vargr incursions! And why not - many of them _were_ Vargr!

In fact, that's probably where you would find most IG combatants during the Rebellion, IMTU.

Of course, all of the above is my own take on things. I'm not aware that any of it contradicts canon. The closest it comes is that there is the hint of a connection with Rule of Terra, but that isn't explicitly stated.

Inevitably, some hack will make that explicit, and I will ignore them. This is how heresies are made. I think my version is more interesting.

I will spare you my "Real World"(tm) opinions.
 
Nice work, alanb.

You did miss one minor point when talking about the activities of intelligence agencies. As the Imperium is strongly corporate, with many Megacorps, figure that some of these may (where it suits) underwrite groups like the IG, sometimes without even many folks in the Corp or the group knowing it. It may further their ends and they may direct some actions to help the group, or by the group to forward their own ends.

Additionally, Vermene or other equivalent MegaCorp security/dirty tricks boys will regularly conduct raids/bombings/etc on enemy Corps and sometimes even against the Imperium (very carefully) and use local IG or even just use pros and *claim* to be local IG.

Altogether, a very nuanced and interesting view of the IG, with many options for how to involve them, and a vast variety in terms of what that involvment is and whether you've got freedom fighters or mad-bombers-wot-bombs-at-midnight on your hands or just someone from an outside agency using them as cover.

Imagine a party recruited by the IG (since they might be an outside body) and paid to find out who is blowing stuff up in the name of the IG.... and it could turn out to be SORAG, Imperial Int, Corporation Intel, or even just other nutbars (or a splinter cell of the IG locally)!
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
You did miss one minor point when talking about the activities of intelligence agencies. As the Imperium is strongly corporate,
Yes, I did omit the megacorps. Thanks for pointing it out.

Apart from the corps using the IG as scapegoats, it's a pretty safe bet that the IG will occasionally end up on the other side in corporate funded mercenary ops. This, of course, includes mercenary ops including PCs!

This could either be cases where the IG themselves are the enemy, or where they providing the enemy with technical support. My version of the IG has lots of Vargr, exiled fighters from Efate, Zhodani trainers, an interstellar network, and at least some ships, so the support they could provide could be quite useful.

Vargr means mercenary corsairs, Efate is a high tech world, the Zhodani provide both high tech and psionic training, and interstellar networks and ships means high tech gear and training may be available.

Of course, we shouldn't overestimate the scale of this assistance, but even a cadre of a couple of dozen people can make a huge difference.

Certainly enough of a difference to challenge half a dozen PCs!
 
Originally posted by alanb:
Of course, we shouldn't overestimate the scale of this assistance, but even a cadre of a couple of dozen people can make a huge difference.
That's one of the interesting things about asymetric conflicts - the terrorism/freedom fighter side often has a minimal roll of 'core people', with a bunch of sometimes operatives, contacts, fences, financiers, etc. It means that a few people, given some time to coordinate, can accomplish a fair bit.

And as you say, it doesn't take something that can take on an Imperial MarDiv or BatRon to make players' lives exciting!

In my game, the IG have shown up as fringe players in the effort that ended up getting the PCs a ship (shot down while running bioagents stolen from a MegaCorp 28 years before). The IG were the original destination for the contraband, and wanted to recover it. The PCs decided that the terrorist nutbars were dangerous probably, but less dangerous (to them in the long run) than SuSag Security - and that SuSag turned out to actually be grateful to them for helping recover the specimens, which were from a long-closed down project they didn't really want Imperial Authorities to know about.

The end result had the PCs with a refurbished ship, a powerful patron/contact in SuSag Security, and some nutbar terrorist enemies on Inthe. All in all, an exciting adventure!
 
Good arguements, kaladorn, you have managed to convince me of some your case but not all.

I have always tended to downplay the SORAG role, partially because I got the Alien Module long before I ever heard of SORAG.

However, I would wonder if the two branches of humaniti could find the way through "peaceful co-existance" without a major change in either's structure. What would intrigue me, a more thorough discussion of the factions within the Consulate. GT has solved this by posulating the factions within but I am still left wondering if, influential proles could still impact the decision of the nobles without the Thought Police gunning them down...

Or perhaps, the real levels of power lies within the Intendants who are not really subject to the same discipline as the Nobles but are freer than the Proles...

(you must learn to control your feelings, my very young apprendice. Your thoughts betray you...) ;) ;)

As the democracy is coming apart in the Consulate, I am sure that has openned the way for ambitous Intendants. Some them may have also been engaged in the Frontier exploration and come back with something from the Core triggering the Empress Wave or the Empress may be a powerful Intendant who is trying to copy the Imperial model...

I know that this is in MJD's hands but it would hurt to speculate that the Empress Wave is a collision of multiple waves or social forces...
 
I have always tended to downplay the SORAG role, partially because I got the Alien Module long before I ever heard of SORAG.
Is SORAG still canon?

However, I would wonder if the two branches of humaniti could find the way through "peaceful co-existance" without a major change in either's structure.
My main complaint with OTU history is that things don't change much. Friends stay friends, enemies stay enemies, borders don't move (the only exception being the Solomani).

This isn't the way things work. Take US/UK relations as an example: 300 years ago, the USA didn't even exist, it was part of the British Empire. 200 years ago, the US had broken away and the countries were bitter enemies. 100 years ago, we were friends again. Today, we're close allies, but our relative strengths have swapped places.
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
Is SORAG still canon?
Well, it hasn't (yet) been paved over. But I think PP stuff is officially non-canonical now. OTOH, call it SORAG or give it another name, Zhodani will have some sort of agency running the same Game, just as the Imps will in reverse.

My main complaint with OTU history is that things don't change much. Friends stay friends, enemies stay enemies, borders don't move (the only exception being the Solomani).
Hmmm, the Solomani took over an Imperium. The frontier wars moved the borders Zho/Human several times, in fairly notable ways (ask the Sword Worlders).

I imagine it is very difficult to move a border many parsecs, given all that would entail.

As for friends staying friends, most of them are friends due to the extingencies of their situations - ie Darrian/Imperial as both had Sword Worlders to worry about. Unless *that* changed, then the reason for the alliance still persists.

This isn't the way things work. Take US/UK relations as an example: 300 years ago, the USA didn't even exist, it was part of the British Empire. 200 years ago, the US had broken away and the countries were bitter enemies. 100 years ago, we were friends again. Today, we're close allies, but our relative strengths have swapped places.
Ah, but that has happened vis the Vilani vs. the Solomani.

And in all cases, the societies involved were a bit different, but not much, than their contemporaries (Early USA was a British Colony which really didn't want to rebel until forced to). There were no alien races. Our basic xenophobia and profoundly different psychologies (even wrt the other humans in Trav) may have a lot to do with why friends stay friends and enemies stay enemies.

Plus, if you include the collapse of the Empire in the Rebellion, there have been profound shifts in relative power. After that, the Zho consulate looks a lot more powerful than Norris little chunk of the Empire. Different political balance entirely. And then the Virus wiped out Core.... I think people living there would notice a profound change from 1110 to 1140.....
 
Is SORAG still canon?

Well, if they are not...and GURPS can get away with what was in the GURPS Zhodani write up on Intelligence Agencies...I would be most disappointed by the canon police.

SORAG struck me as the right balance between ommipotent KGB/GRU and a regular intelligence service for an Interstellar power. Having the Zhodani as spies and echoing the Cold War seems to be the track that Mongoose is taking.

However, I have long argued that the Zhodani should be more the tall villan stoking his beard awaiting the players to foil yet again. I think, however, we have depleted many of the mysteries of the Zhodani. Therefore, I have tended to go back in time and think what the proto-Zhodani were doing...

I see them as the couriers (capable of storing psionic messages) and enforcers/camp guards for other humans in the time of Antiquity. Whether any of this lineage survives to this day remains to be seen... But, I am contemplating using Space Hulk for a large proto Zhodani freighter to suddenly drop from Warp in the vincinity of the Spinward Marches with them not knowing the war is over and lost...
 
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