OTU Only: Interest in the Solomani Rim?

[Nathan Brazil]

Saw the vehicle write-up. Good start.

Want to push that envelope?

Starships with dedicated aquatic quarters or better a Dolphin starship with a dedicated "human environmental section". What would those even look like? If Dolphins are so prized as navigators as the Mongoose books indicate, I have a hard time reconciling that with these sophonts allowing themselves to live in the cramped aquatic spacesuits from the old JTAS article for a whole week in Jump. You go wear the same clothes for 7 days in a row without changing. They're not animals (not anymore :rofl: )!

Would a single stateroom suffice or would need a double for tail-room? I could see them changing to a suit for each shift but how do you get from the aquatic stateroom to change to your space/work suit to the bridge?

 

[mike wightman]

If you can fill a starship's crew spaces and staterooms with water so that dolphins are happy there is another use.

You now have a more concentrated store of hydrogen to turn into jump fuel...

Flood ten passenger staterooms and you have 560 tonnes of water - which breaks down into 62 tons of liquid hydrogen in addition to your regular fuel tanks.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I dont think you could do that while the dolphins are using the space. I know they dont need water to breath being mammals, but IIRC most dolphin species live in saltwater. Its like asking humans lets artificially change the ph of everthing you touch. You dont mind, do you? It goes against the comfortable workfin (I just made that up:coffeesip: LOL) environ Im trying to go for.

On a primarily dolphin ship you would need waterproof controls that also do not corrode from the salt...

 

[Grav_Moped]

Saw the vehicle write-up. Good start.

Want to push that envelope?

Starships with dedicated aquatic quarters or better a Dolphin starship with a dedicated "human environmental section". What would those even look like? If Dolphins are so prized as navigators as the Mongoose books indicate, I have a hard time reconciling that with these sophonts allowing themselves to live in the cramped aquatic spacesuits from the old JTAS article for a whole week in Jump. You go wear the same clothes for 7 days in a row without changing. They're not animals (not anymore :rofl: )!

Would a single stateroom suffice or would need a double for tail-room? I could see them changing to a suit for each shift but how do you get from the aquatic stateroom to change to your space/work suit to the bridge?

They'd need airlocks (water-locks?), assuming the aquatic living quarters couldn't be purged. Where would the water go, anyhow?

 

[mike wightman]

I dont think you could do that while the dolphins are using the space. I know they dont need water to breath being mammals, but IIRC most dolphin species live in saltwater. Its like asking humans lets artificially change the ph of everthing you touch. You dont mind, do you? It goes against the comfortable workfin (I just made that up:coffeesip: LOL) environ Im trying to go for.

On a primarily dolphin ship you would need waterproof controls that also do not corrode from the salt...

No, not while they are in use, but if you allow staterooms and crew areas to be water filled rather than air filled you can now carry extra fuel in the form of water, which is a denser storage medium than the liquid hydrogen in your fuel tanks.

 

[Grav_Moped]

No, not while they are in use, but if you allow staterooms and crew areas to be water filled rather than air filled you can now carry extra fuel in the form of water, which is a denser storage medium than the liquid hydrogen in your fuel tanks.

Flood the whole thing -- human crewmembers can wear SCUBA gear.

Might also enable tolerating higher Gs.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

depends on the ship owner and the aqua suit. I was thinking if you could make the the suit antigrav you could make the quarters a straight up aquarium and the dolphin suits up in the tank and floats out the top as needed on a human ship.

 

[mike wightman]

Zero g and very humid air...

 

[BwapTED]

If it was giving more of the same, no. If it covered how the various different Terran cultures moved uniquely to space - yes. Multiple languages, cultures, etc that aren't all western would be interesting. Geneered creatures. Done well it would be worth reading.

In making Traveller stuff I often assume that Russia, Japan, Korea, and China played important roles in early off-world colonization.

That's for IMTU stuff, but I think it also fits the Terran Confederation era. That future isn't so far distant from our time and these advanced, developed countries could quite plausibly be major powers within the TC.

 

[whartung]

Zero g and very humid air...

That might work. The first problem is (mind, not being a dolphin nor dolphin biologist) keeping the dolphin "wet", I don't think their skin is designed to "dry out", at least not for any duration.

So, they may well be able to survive comfortably in a room with high humidity.

The other thing would be perhaps to have a grav propelled environment suit so the dolphin can navigate a normal ship.

A dolphin ship, I think, would have larger corridors, mostly for larger openings. Anything that could be flooded, would be flooded.

It would be curious is grav tech could be used to maintain "dry bubbles" around panels and such that would prevent water from "splashing in", even if the covers were off.

 

[Marchand]

I voted "no" as I prefer settings on the rough and tumble borderlands, and I am not that much of a fan of the OTU anyway.

In making Traveller stuff I often assume that Russia, Japan, Korea, and China played important roles in early off-world colonization.

That's for IMTU stuff, but I think it also fits the Terran Confederation era. That future isn't so far distant from our time and these advanced, developed countries could quite plausibly be major powers within the TC.

Can I ask why you picked these 4? They have among the weakest demographic outlooks globally, according to UN baseline projections. Russia's population is projected to fall by about 15% by 2100, China's by a third, and Japan's by nearly 50%. I can't find the number for (South) Korea immediately, but their fertility rate dropped below 1 last year (replacement is about 2.1). Except Russia, none of them attracts much immigration (although Japan is talking about allowing more, but even then only for relatively short-term work passes). Russia and China are still classed as emerging markets rather than developed (Korea is still in some EM financial market indices although that is mainly a legacy thing, they are developed in terms of incomes, although still poorer than Japan).

That said, there is a dramatically widening uncertainty band around the demographic projections the further out you go, and geopolitics can upend everything, e.g. Russia could get some of the USSR back! Or Korea could reunite.

Plus, rule of cool trumps all, if you want those 4 then why not go for it. A "sensible extrapolation" might be pretty bland. Whereas something like 2300AD's French-dominated setting is very cool because of its originality.

 

[BwapTED]

I voted "no" as I prefer settings on the rough and tumble borderlands, and I am not that much of a fan of the OTU anyway.



Can I ask why you picked these 4? They have among the weakest demographic outlooks globally, according to UN baseline projections. Russia's population is projected to fall by about 15% by 2100, China's by a third, and Japan's by nearly 50%. I can't find the number for (South) Korea immediately, but their fertility rate dropped below 1 last year (replacement is about 2.1). Except Russia, none of them attracts much immigration (although Japan is talking about allowing more, but even then only for relatively short-term work passes). Russia and China are still classed as emerging markets rather than developed (Korea is still in some EM financial market indices although that is mainly a legacy thing, they are developed in terms of incomes, although still poorer than Japan).

That said, there is a dramatically widening uncertainty band around the demographic projections the further out you go, and geopolitics can upend everything, e.g. Russia could get some of the USSR back! Or Korea could reunite.

Plus, rule of cool trumps all, if you want those 4 then why not go for it. A "sensible extrapolation" might be pretty bland. Whereas something like 2300AD's French-dominated setting is very cool because of its originality.

The RF has a long lead in space.
China and Japan are among the world's largest economies. Both have significant space programs.
And climate change may actually benefit Russia, overall. Russia is also showing some signs of a civilizational rebirth, at least in my view. China has leaders unafraid to think big and to spend a lot of resources--and lives--on major projects.

Low fertility and shrinking populations would definitely impact these nations' economies, as such factors will with Europe, but it seems plausible to me that robots and AI could increase productivity per worker enough to offset that decline.


And, yes, I assume Korean Reunification. Korea is the outlier in my lineup, I'd say.

I could see any or all of these countries declining in the not distant future, but I could also see them becoming/remaining (Russia and China) major powers. Russia is the most plausible case.

I grew up with some exposure to Russian, Korean, Japanese, and Chinese cultures and people in Portland OR, which might have been a factor in my choices for making Traveler stuff. Please don't mistake me for any sort of expert. I once took a Russian language and culture class as a kid. Do I speak Russian today? Ha! No, not at all. My sister-in-law is from Hokkaido.
I once hung out with Chinese sailors my mom brought home. No, really. They were drinking beer in the Safeway parking lot and the security guard came out and started giving them a hard time (I'm not sure they understood the guy was not a real policeman). My mom pulled up and called for the sailors to jump in her car. Ten minutes later, these guys were in our living room hanging out with my parents, me, and my little brother. Language barrier? Yes. But we had a good time anyway. One of them swapped smokes with my dad.


Aramis speaks Russian, yeah?

 

[Condottiere]

Depends a great deal on neocolonialism and political will.

The Politburo are trying to expand on all cylinders, and in all directions; they would certainly would like to have the first manned mission to Mars, and start mining on the Moon. Also whaling.

The Russians don't have the money.

The Japanese might be interested in automated missions.

The South Koreans have problems closer to home to deal with, unless it's written in one of their entertainment contracts that they have to send a boy group into orbit.

Since they can manufacture underwater cables, presumably equipment that needs to be watertight can be insulated; unless flooded accommodations are at least ten percent of ship volume, or at least significantly close enough, there probably isn't much point, unless it's a long endurance voyage.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

More Bad Ideas!

All of this capability comes at a price. Maintaining a large battle line and assault force has forced the Navy to cut back on medium-sized ships. The Solomani are short of cruisers, large fleet escorts and destroyers, which in peacetime often leads to larger or smaller ships doing these jobs, and in wartime limits their options for independent raids and strikes. (AM5 p.39)

The Solomani Navy's multi-role functionality (AM5 p.38-39) suggests ships may be less specialized. Like:

• Larger combatant ships having tonnage dedicated to labs to assist in exploration roles. I don't see labs on Tigress Dreadnoughts.
• The other example was the "heavy" patrol ships as low as 800 tons having facilities dedicated to transport Marine contingent as standardl. Are all their patrol craft needle winged Broadsword equivalents?

And then there are the specialized ships you will never use unless you play the spy or Project Phoenix campaigns.

• The super stealthy planetoid ships used to sneak across to Imperial space
• The stealth SDBs whose entire crew that are in low berths designed to last decades without maintenance. and of course
• The similar planetoid cruisers hiding in the Oort Cloud or Kuiper Belt waiting for "The Signal"

Ah yes, with their entire crew of hand picked fanatically loyal Crew Skill 4 crews in , knowing decades may pass, their families perhaps dead. Crewing battle riders because there will be no retreat, no surrender. One or two may have installed a known but poorly understood Ancient Artifact installed. Lifted from the Ancient Site on Venus back during the Rule of Man. Taken from Terra just before the final invasion. Or put another way "How many damage points would 10000 tons of "extra" jump capacitor installed instead of jump drive and fuel be able to store on a battle rider? Oh right 500,000 damage points":coffeesip:
Retaking Terra would be a good use 'em or lose 'em moment.
Or if they must have jump drives to go insystem , make them only Jump-1. a massive capacitor store will grant you enough energy to jump before the Globe is overloaded. and a Crew Skill of 4 allows you overcome most of the risks. Read the Mongoose rules "Preparing for Jump". It explicity clear RAW you can successfully activate the Jump Drive within 100 diameters of a gravity field and leave. So if those traitorous dogs must go, the risk is far less than you grongards are used to seeing.

 

[Condottiere]

I've had a couple of years to reflect on the current Confederation Navy order of battle, based on the current Mongosian design rules.

1. One thing they were probably short of were capital ships in the War of Imperium Aggression; they compromised in the run up to that conflict by manufacturing battle cruisers, and the Prometheus class was a late addition.

2. The Prometheus class of fast dreadnoughts is probably the basis of their current Fleet Squadrons. They look like Imperial Star Destroyers, but probably now more likely the Resurgent.

3. Real world experience indicates you build and plan capital ships before a conflict, and complete the ones already started during it.

4. I don't pretend to understand why the current order of battle completely erases cruisers, and skips to patrol sized ships, I just look at it and make lemonade.

5. I'm going to guess that the primary objective of the Confederation Navy is to engage the Imperium in a series of decisive battles, destroy their battle squadrons, and then hunt down their cruisers.

6. In the meantime, the Solomani member state navies will be filling in for the cruiser role.

7. It's kinda easy to envision the Solomani betting the farm on three hundred kay tonne fast dreadnoughts, employed in wolf packs to destroy the Imperium naval units deployed on the Rim.

8. Once in conflict, the Confederation will concentrate on repairing damaged ships, and start building smaller cruiser class ships and patrol ships.

9. My take is that cruisers still exist in the Confederation Navy, but are centrally controlled, and sent on specific missions, but probably only number ten percent of their Imperium counterparts (deployed along the Rim).

 

[whartung]

I voted "no" as I prefer settings on the rough and tumble borderlands, and I am not that much of a fan of the OTU anyway.



Can I ask why you picked these 4? They have among the weakest demographic outlooks globally, according to UN baseline projections. Russia's population is projected to fall by about 15% by 2100, China's by a third, and Japan's by nearly 50%. I can't find the number for (South) Korea immediately, but their fertility rate dropped below 1 last year (replacement is about 2.1). Except Russia, none of them attracts much immigration (although Japan is talking about allowing more, but even then only for relatively short-term work passes). Russia and China are still classed as emerging markets rather than developed (Korea is still in some EM financial market indices although that is mainly a legacy thing, they are developed in terms of incomes, although still poorer than Japan).

It's also difficult to predict what might happen if an entire new "infinite" frontier opened up. Much of China's problem, for example, were specifically due to trying to reign in growth. If you have resources, then growth won't be as stifled, and national policy could be switched around. "Go forth to the stars and BREEED!"

 

[Nathan Brazil]

In making Traveller stuff I often assume that Russia, Japan, Korea, and China played important roles in early off-world colonization.

That's for IMTU stuff, but I think it also fits the Terran Confederation era.

None of the ones you mentioned did individually, according to canon. The United Nations Space Coordination Agency (UNSCA) was formed in -2508 (2011AD) as an advisory body. It acted as claim ofice, standards creator. data sharing and so on. The generation ships of the ESA were built in the 2050's prior to UNSCA inventing M-Drive in the 2060s. The very first of these was the Europa set to go to Alpha Centauri. UNESCA invented Jump Drive in 2187. StarLeaper One was an American ship the first designed to get maximize the limits of Jump 1 by using fuel caches to get to Barnard's Star. Jump Ships prior to StarLeaper were built for interplanetary jumps. It launched in 2096AD (-2425) and the rest is Terran Supremacy...

The point was that there was effectively no colonization until the 2050s and no practical colonization until the M-Drive made leaving orbit really cheap in the 2060s. The results of Barnard expedition showed that almost all systems coreward of Terra were already colonized. The 3rd Interstellar War (2145-2156AD) saw the almost complete destruction of all the national navies and the Vilani nuking of Terra in late 2147. Rebuilding the navy and getting nuked is what pushed people to accept calling themselves Terrans.

So in writing about it in an OTU sense these extrasolar national colonies you desire had almost no chance of existing given the timeline or if they did they are Rimward and not official "national" colonies. Just a bunch who pooled their money to flee the Wars.

 

[BwapTED]

None of the ones you mentioned did individually, according to canon. The United Nations Space Coordination Agency (UNSCA) was formed in -2508 (2011AD) as an advisory body. It acted as claim ofice, standards creator. data sharing and so on. The generation ships of the ESA were built in the 2050's prior to UNSCA inventing M-Drive in the 2060s. The very first of these was the Europa set to go to Alpha Centauri. UNESCA invented Jump Drive in 2187. StarLeaper One was an American ship the first designed to get maximize the limits of Jump 1 by using fuel caches to get to Barnard's Star. Jump Ships prior to StarLeaper were built for interplanetary jumps. It launched in 2096AD (-2425) and the rest is Terran Supremacy...

The point was that there was effectively no colonization until the 2050s and no practical colonization until the M-Drive made leaving orbit really cheap in the 2060s. The results of Barnard expedition showed that almost all systems coreward of Terra were already colonized. The 3rd Interstellar War (2145-2156AD) saw the almost complete destruction of all the national navies and the Vilani nuking of Terra in late 2147. Rebuilding the navy and getting nuked is what pushed people to accept calling themselves Terrans.

So in writing about it in an OTU sense these extrasolar national colonies you desire had almost no chance of existing given the timeline or if they did they are Rimward and not official "national" colonies. Just a bunch who pooled their money to flee the Wars.

Solomani Confederation includes:

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Solomani_Confederation#Member_States:_1105

Looking over the list, I see colonies that represent 'Anglic Descent', Francophone nations, a self-titled "French Republic", Slavs, Spanish/Hispanic language and culture, Hindu-Occidental fusion, and (rather unbelievably to me) apartheid era South Africa.



I agree that 2300 AD style colonial empires maintained by Russia, France, Japan, etc. don't fit the OTU history.
I also agree with you that most such "unofficial national colonies" colonies would likely be located Rimward of Earth/Terra.
What I had written was that certain nations could play important roles in off-world colonization. In the OTU, these roles would have been within the framework of the Terran Confederation and later/other governments.

Perhaps world A's early settlers included a preponderance of Chinese, while world B might have had a majority of Americans as its first colonists.

Some of this depends on how quickly you think an English/Anglic speaking Terran/proto-Solomani global culture came to exist and how much influence and autonomy the old nations and states of Earth/Terra retained within the TC through the ISW era.




RE off-world settlement and nations/cultures besides the Anglic-speaking "Terran mix."

The Sword Worlds are awfully Nordic (yes, I know canon includes Vilani and other influences, but still, they pretty much speak future-Icelandic...)

And the Islands Cluster were settled mostly by Europeans, yes?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

In making Traveller stuff I often assume that Russia, Japan, Korea, and China played important roles in early off-world colonization.

That's for IMTU stuff, but I think it also fits the Terran Confederation era. That future isn't so far distant from our time and these advanced, developed countries could quite plausibly be major powers within the TC.

I know of all the sub regions you bring up but are completely irrelevant answer I provided. I am addressing the specific place you brought up The Terran Confederation. The book that fully encapsulates this era in detail is GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars Legally there is no more independent country of Russia or China. There are subordinate subdivisions of The Terran Confederation called Russia, China, Mars, Nusku. Sure a colony may only have people from the from one region, say the overcrowded city of Tokyo, what is the correct name:the Tokyo colony, the Japanese colony or the Terran colony?

 

[BwapTED]

Sure a colony may only have people from the from one region, say the overcrowded city of Tokyo, what is the correct name:the Tokyo colony, the Japanese colony or the Terran colony?

All three, obviously so.
Politically, administratively it is a Terran colony. But no 'Terran' unified culture existed then.
Culturally, the colony would be Japanese.

I get the sense we are talking about two different ideas.

And I think you missed something in my post which you only partially quoted, above. Let me quote it now...