OTU Only: Interest in the Solomani Rim?

[BwapTED]

In making Traveller stuff I often assume that Russia, Japan, Korea, and China played important roles in early off-world colonization.

That's for IMTU stuff, but I think it also fits the Terran Confederation era. That future isn't so far distant from our time and these advanced, developed countries could quite plausibly be major powers within the TC.

Country is a geographical term. These countries still do exist in the ISW area. I wrote "major powers within the TC." That means I have always acknowledged that (as per canon) they exist in that era as parts of the TC, and not as independent and separate states.
I'm suggesting that China and Russia could be more important and influential within the TC than, say Guatemala or New Zealand.


And "played important roles in early off-world colonization" is intentionally vague. That could be everything from an early preponderance of Russian space engineers to China sending out waves of Space Pioneers to settle worlds for the TC.
Just on the basis of sheer numbers, one would expect China and India to have sent out a lot of soldiers, administrators, and colonists, relative to the old US or Britain.

I think the canon list of the SC member states are relevant, as it demonstrates that various languages besides Anglic/future English, cultures, and even certain national identities (I imagine much altered, yet still recognizable) survive all the way through the centuries to the time of the Solomani Confederation.


But....

from the wiki:

Early History: Modern historians consider the foundation of the Terran Confederation to date from the signing of the Treaty of New York in -2499. Essentially, the treaty placed the armed forces of the major nations of Terra under the centralized control of the United Nations (until that time, a loose organization of the nation states of Terra, with no governmental authority). In addition, the treaty formalized the changes that had been made in the structure of the UN up to that time. The Secretary General was granted a wider range of executive powers than before. The Secretariat, previously an unofficial advisory group of representatives from the major nation states, was made the chief legislative body. The General Assembly was retained, but it was an institution without real power and served merely as a forum for debate among the representatives of both major and minor nations. The Security Council was dispensed with altogether.

Removing the Security Council I knew about. It harms the influence of China and Russia, obviously, but not Japan or Korea.
What's the deal with the Secretariat, though? How is its actual makeup (TC, not UN) determined?
I no longer own a copy of the ISW book, so I defer to your knowledge of it, Nathan.
From the text, it seems 'major nations' and 'minor nations' still exist in the TC period, although obviously even the major nations have given up a lot of power to the TC government.
So I have to agree with you about the relative lack of power of even the 'major nations' within the TC.

That still leaves open something we have both discussed, which is the idea that some colonies might be settled mainly by people from a particular country.
This raises an important question, for which perhaps you can give a canonical answer (I am certain you know the canon much better than I know it).
When colonists were sent from Earth, how was that organized and who was sent?

I'm going to argue against my earlier suggestion of outsized roles for some countries and suggest that much of the early expansion involved a deliberate Terran Confederation policy of mixing different nationalities and cultures among the colonists and imposing English as the common language on the heterogenous mass, all meant to create a Terran common identity and prevent national factions from becoming too strong.


Is that sort of policy ever mentioned in canon?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Yes I was drawing direct correlation of 2300AD and using the examples I posted show the soon to be individual former countries/nations/nation states as in fact not having any memorable role in the story of the rise of the Terran Confederation. I'm neither for or against them, other than they are not canon or that by adding them false alteration of the existing story. Retconninng retcons of retcons:CoW: leads one to DC Comics, Crisis on Infinite Earths and madness.:nonono:

Both the Mongoose and GURPS:IW books present as fact that if it had not been for UNSCA, and by extension the United Nations, humans of Terra would have likely destroyed themselves before getting out to other systems. The history furthers that as the years go by, thoupost gh each nation would like to go it alone but necessity continues to force the nation of the world together.

There is no colonial policy in Mongoose, GURPS IW I dont recall at the moment. Got stuff to do. I will prepare a new a post by Sunday on how those "ethnic" colonies cae to be.

 

[Condottiere]

Minus the magic, ShadowRun probably has a better handle on the geopolitical situation in the future.

It's really more about the cost of entry, and at the macroscale, jump drives and fusion power plants are comparatively inexpensive.

As to how it probably works out, watch The Expanse.

 

[BwapTED]

Yes I was drawing direct correlation of 2300AD and using the examples I posted show the soon to be individual former countries/nations/nation states as in fact not having any memorable role in the story of the rise of the Terran Confederation. I'm neither for or against them, other than they are not canon or that by adding them false alteration of the existing story. Retconninng retcons of retcons:CoW: leads one to DC Comics, Crisis on Infinite Earths and madness.:nonono:

Both the Mongoose and GURPS:IW books present as fact that if it had not been for UNSCA, and by extension the United Nations, humans of Terra would have likely destroyed themselves before getting out to other systems. The history furthers that as the years go by, thoupost gh each nation would like to go it alone but necessity continues to force the nation of the world together.

There is no colonial policy in Mongoose, GURPS IW I dont recall at the moment. Got stuff to do. I will prepare a new a post by Sunday on how those "ethnic" colonies cae to be.

Nathan, I am convinced by your arguments and evidence that the nations of Earth, as nations, played only a minor role in the TC's expansion.

The OTU history describes a 'UN becomes true World Government and thus saves the world' narrative. This probably reflects a number of sci fi novels and stories of the mid 20th Century. Heinlein's Terran Federation, maybe?
It's not like, say, the CoDominium future: great powers dominating the world in a partnership that is also a world government.
That's ATU material.



I do look forward to your ideas about the formation of the 'ethnic' colonies.

My guess is that some of it has a lot to do with various groups on Earth resisting assimilation into a new, Terran, Anglic-speaking globalized culture.

 

[BwapTED]

Minus the magic, ShadowRun probably has a better handle on the geopolitical situation in the future.

It's really more about the cost of entry, and at the macroscale, jump drives and fusion power plants are comparatively inexpensive.

As to how it probably works out, watch The Expanse.

Indeed!

I'm pretty fond of The Expanse, although I didn't watch past the first season. No time for TV. Kids, work, books, outdoors activities, gaming, etc.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

OK Im back. I have a few ideas that may when mixed together might resolve the apparent conflict between issue of:

• No National colonies of note during the Terran Confederation era vs. National or ethnic regions appearing later in the Solomani Confederation.

• The exploration, colonization, and political border limits are fairly defined as of 2173AD. The Terrans have made attempts to get out of "The Pocket" , but the Vilani have been pretty good at destroying colonies within their space at this time. The Terrans are continually merging all their efforts to be unified, more so after the national fleets are destroyed and Terra is nuked in 2145 AD
• Yet the DGP book shows "ethnically flavored" sub-units of the Confederation.
• All known groups except Boötean Federation in Capella and Gemini Subsectors and Thetis-Laputa Coalition in Kukulkan Subsectors are not in the Solomani Rim Sector. As of 2173AD, Capella and Gemini are mostly unexplored and Kukulkan is completely so.

I think two solutions are more generation ships launched prior to First Contact at Barnard and ethnic nostalgia.

A.Further destinations - Other ships may have been built by national and ethnic groups leaving for destinations MUCH FARTHER than the Europa going to Prometheus but less distant than the 4 ESA ships. They reach their destinations sometime after 2173AD or longer. I got this idea from the prior examples of Europa and the ESA. Even the Europa was taking 40 years to get 2 parsecs. But the ESA presents exceptions like Third Reformed French Confederate Republic in Aldebaran Sector and others. If France was part of the ESA and threw their efforts into the big baskets, would they have a little baskets elsewhere? Maybe. OR.....

B.Dissidents - Even though Terra is unifying under the pressure of annihilation there are always going to be haters. Before First Contact, there be may dissidents with minor efforts. If there any efforts after First Contact, jump wont help until Jump-2 is invented AND Terrans get out The Pocket. That happens around The Fifth Interstellar War (A.D. 2176-2186).

C.Secret missions - China is stated to have left the UN after the new UN was created with the Treaty of New York in 2025. They were out for 10 years.
Maybe they built a generation ship thumbing their noses at the UN.

UNSCA: You have launched a bunch of rockets to the Belt. What are you building out there?
China:None of your beeswax. :rant: We are not part of the UN and we are not going to tell you.
​

D.Nostalgia - On occasion there will be groups that look to the past, like the Authentic Movement in Modern Solomani times or like my ex-wife trying to live a pagan Celtic life. Depending on how far removed you are from the original, you might have all or merely some of the elements of an old Terran culture you aspire to emulated. However, these groups too are subject to the realities of the politics, astrography and existing narrative as to when they enter the stage.

 

[BwapTED]

OK Im back. I have a few ideas that may when mixed together might resolve the apparent conflict between issue of:

• No National colonies of note during the Terran Confederation era vs. National or ethnic regions appearing later in the Solomani Confederation.

• The exploration, colonization, and political border limits are fairly defined as of 2173AD. The Terrans have made attempts to get out of "The Pocket" , but the Vilani have been pretty good at destroying colonies within their space at this time. The Terrans are continually merging all their efforts to be unified, more so after the national fleets are destroyed and Terra is nuked in 2145 AD
• Yet the DGP book shows "ethnically flavored" sub-units of the Confederation.
• All known groups except Boötean Federation in Capella and Gemini Subsectors and Thetis-Laputa Coalition in Kukulkan Subsectors are not in the Solomani Rim Sector. As of 2173AD, Capella and Gemini are mostly unexplored and Kukulkan is completely so.

I think two solutions are more generation ships launched prior to First Contact at Barnard and ethnic nostalgia.

A.Further destinations - Other ships may have been built by national and ethnic groups leaving for destinations MUCH FARTHER than the Europa going to Prometheus but less distant than the 4 ESA ships. They reach their destinations sometime after 2173AD or longer. I got this idea from the prior examples of Europa and the ESA. Even the Europa was taking 40 years to get 2 parsecs. But the ESA presents exceptions like Third Reformed French Confederate Republic in Aldebaran Sector and others. If France was part of the ESA and threw their efforts into the big baskets, why would they have a little basket elsewhere? Maybe. OR.....

B.Dissidents - Even though Terra is unifying under the pressure of annihilation there are always going to be haters. Before First Contact, there be may dissidents with minor efforts. If there any efforts after First Contact, jump wont help until Jump-2 is invented AND Terrans get out The Pocket. That happens around The Fifth Interstellar War (A.D. 2176-2186). That would be help with generation ships.

C.Secret missions - China is stated to have left the UN after the new UN was created with the Treaty of New York in 2025. They were out for 10 years.
Maybe they built a generation ship thumbing their noses at the UN.

UNSCA: You have launched a bunch of rockets to the Belt. What are you building out there?
China:None of your beeswax. :rant: We are not part of the UN and we are not going to tell you.
​

D.Nostalgia - On occasion there will be groups that look to the past, like the Authentic Movement in Modern Solomani times or like my ex-wife trying to live a pagan Celtic life. Depending on how far removed you are from the original, you might have all or merely some of the elements of an old Terran culture you aspire to emulated. However, these groups too are subject to the realities of the existing narrative as to when they enter the stage.

Yay! That all looks really good to me.

I'm not working up any Solomani Rim stuff now, but if I do, making it compatible with canon will make it more useful to more people.