InterPlanetary Exploitation

[LordVince]

Here's a little bee that's been in my bonnet for some time....

I have always assumed that the Major World in any StarSystem was the primary, if not exclusive, population center of the System.

I have heard it again and again, the Imperium claims sovereignty over no PLANET, but instead claims sovereignty over the SPACE between planets.

So. If all the "Locals" are on one planet in the system, and the Imperium claims it doesn't rule over any physical property -- then what's the deal concerning all the OTHER real estate in a StarSystem?

I mean, can any spacebum jump in-system, land on an uninhabited moon, raise a flag, and proclaim himself King of The Moon? Is the Imperium holding all the rest of the StarSystem "in trust" for the population of the Major World? Or, would the Imperium have some kind of regulatory administration over the exploitation of lesser bodies in a StarSystem, i.e. "Sure, you can be King of The Moon, just fill out these forms and pay these fees. If you don't, then the Navy will come use you for target practice."

 

[flykiller]

well, the actual formulation is the imperium rules the space between the stars. if you're looking for a rule regarding insystems, there isn't any. it's up to the game referee.

in my game there are both kinds of systems, those with multiple polities (think balkanization, writ large) and governments that rule entire systems - sometimes nominally. the imperium rules the space between the stars, i.e. the imperium rules the starports. the rest belongs to the local governments.

once you decide what the imperium actually is, and who and what the nobility are, then the insystem problem should naturally resolve itself. and what those things are in your game is up to you.

 

[mike wightman]

D'Oh.

Until you typed the above, Flykiller, it never occurred to me to use the balkanised code to represent different planetary governments in different bodies within a system.

Good idea

 

[mike wightman]

Back to Lord Vince's what if...

what if a megacorporation decides to develop the planetoid belts, or set up resource exploitation developments on other planets within a system.

Can the mainworld object? Can the mainworld lay claim to all the resources within a system if it lacks the TL to exploit them? If the mainworld decides to fight the megacorp how can they do it?
Would the Imperial navy intervene?

 

[Captain Zoom]

Can the mainworld object?

The mainworld can always file an objection -- in the form of a few SDBs.

Corporations can fight wars between themselves so long as it doesn't get out of hand (and I've gotten the impression that getting out of hand pretty much means not violating the Imperial rules of war, and not spilling over too much on third-parties). I don't see any reason a planet can't claim its entire system so long as it can enforce its claim.

Although megacorporations have light military forces, planetary systems only need a few good SDBs to match them since they only need to run around in one system while the megacorp can't commit significant forces to one location for too long.

Of course, if the corporation can get an Imperial grant of some sort, then I guess the IN would provide protection.

Overall, it's probably easier for a megacorp to spread some money around, sign some contracts, and make a good profit (and incidentally avoid too much bad PR from stomping on locals unnecessarily ).

 

[mike wightman]

What if the world in question is only TL9-11?
The megacorp can send in its TL14-15 mercs/security guards , the SDB's wouldn't be much of a deterrent.

The world could hire mercs of its own, of course

Hmm, there's a scenario in here trying to get out.

 

[Captain Zoom]

The corporation is unlikely to want to pay to maintain significant defense forces in-system indefinitely. The local forces would always be there. Also, the local forces, even TL 9 SDBs vs TL14-15 starships, can swamp the corporate forces with numbers. The low-tech SDBs also off-set their tech level a bit because they don't need jump drives while the corporate forces are probably starships. Also, a corporation is probably only going to be able to field a couple of close escorts or similar craft unless they hire mercs.

Another issue is that private military forces (PMFs)have run into is that push come to shove, private military personnel tend to simply decide they arn't being paid enough to die. Without looking it up, I think I've heard that attrition rates (i.e I quit/won't show up) in Iraq among the PMFs is 40+% versus about 1% in regular government-type military forces. System military forces are military, they fight as ordered or suffer military justice, and may have patriotic attitudes that make them willing to take casualties that a PMF would not be willing to accept.

On the other hand, for the money the corporation would pay for hi-tech mercs with space combat capabilities, they could probably just purchase the necessary rights from the local government, and even have the local government police the area (i.e. provide basic protection).

On your scenario idea, you'd probably need a high payoff for the corporation versus an intransigent government (fanatics of some sort?). If the corporation really wants the thingie in question (high payoff), but can't bargain for it (intransigent government), then they might be tempted to try force. In such a situation, however, I would actually expect the corporation to try to destabilize the local government and get someone in power they can deal with. Politics and skullduggery is more the corporate style, rather than raw military force.

 

[The Oz]

The other thing is that a megacorp is more likely to risk a military confrontation with a local government if the object is a short-term gain, such as exploiting an Ancient site or something like that. Anything that would require the corp to stay in the system for a long time (mining a rich asteroid belt) would probably be handled as others have said, by paying off the local gov't.

Of course, if the system is balkanized, buying off one local gov't ensures upsetting some other local gov't, and everyone knows you can't trust your megacorp's security to the local yokels, so there's your adventure as the PCs work for the corp to back up the "friendly" gov't forces.

 

[mike wightman]

What if the world is only TL7 or 8 but wants the resources of the system and so decides to eject the megacorps operation?
They'd have to call in the mercs then

How else do you justify the existance of mercs in the OTU if there aren't little problems like this to be solved.

Both sides could be using merc forces.

The megacorp could have hired a Broadsword plus fighters (or use the Assignment Vigilante modified liner) to defend their holdings, while the planet could hire a cadre/commando unit to train locals and perform strikes against the megacorps holdings within the system

 

[roberthawk]

I'm so glad I found you guys...Really great ideas...
TY the 'new guy'

 

[LordVince]

My question was more along the lines of Imperial Policy, though.

In many places, I've read the phrase "The Imperium doesn't rule the PLANETS within its borders, it rules the SPACE between them."

I have always assumed that that "rule" meant "protection", and that that protection applied to agressors, both internal and external.

Maybe I'm wrong, here, but I've always assumed that, since the 3I claims jurisdiction over "space", that if Planet-A, in Starsystem-A, were to send ships across "space" to attack Planet-B, in Starsystem-B -- the Imperial Navy would step in.

But that scenario is Starsystem vs. Starsystem. The Imperial Navy stops INTERSTELLAR fighting.

My question deals with similar circumstances, but WITHIN a Starsystem. It's a two-part issue, I suppose, defined by wether the participants possess spaceflight capability. Does the Imperial Navy stop INTERPLANETARY fighting?

SO...

Scenario #1:
Mainworld-A, of Starsystem-A, has population, but NO space travel, and IS an Imperial World. NO other planet in Starsystem-A has any population.
Then, along come Outsiders (MegaCorp, Soldiers, Adventurers, etc.) into Starsystem-A. They make NO agressive moves against Mainworld-A, but settle down on an OuterSystem Gas Giant Moon, and begin building a Colony.
THE QUESTION: What is the IMPERIAL stance on this situation?
Mainworld-A has been inhabited for centuries; would it be the Imperium's position that "all worlds in a system are held in reserve for exploitation by the Mainworld"?
Or, being an organization commited to fostering Trade all across the Universe, would the Imperial Position be "if a Mainworld doesn't have the Tech to exploit in-system planets, then they are open to exploitation by anyone who can get to them"?
Or would the Imperium adopt a more middle ground attitude, and say "Planets in a Starsystem are held in reserve for the Mainworld population, HOWEVER, if the proper fees are paid, and the proper forms filled out, the Imperium can and will excercise Emminant Domain, and assign exploitation contracts to non-Mainworld interests"?

Over the years, I've read of several Red Zones imposed because the "natives" were not ready for Interstellar contact. And in these Red Zones, the Imperial Navy has Interdicted the ENTIRE Starsystem! Why? What does it matter, if the Mainworld is inhabited by Tech-3 Neobarbs, that someone sets up an asteroid mining complex in the outer system?

 

[Captain Zoom]

Frankly I don't know.

There's this moldering old memory in the back of my head that says that there is no actual Imperial proscription on one Imperial star system invading another Imperial star system, but that individual star systems usually don't find it economical to launch planetary invasions. I've got no idea if this came from the game, or from a campaign I played in.

I don't know how "official" the Traveller Library Data is, but here's a link to a relevant entry:

http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/I/imprlwar.htm

Good luck!

 

[Ran Targas]

IMHO, I don't think the sector and sub-sector governors would allow this to happen.

The economic stability of a sub-sector is essential to maintaining civil order and, in turn, funding a governor's plans for greatness. By allowing competing groups of speculators and profiteers to plunder planets or resources not under direct government control would result in hostilities (either between competing groups, with the civilian populace, or with local government forces) that would disrupt the peace and drastically affect the local economy. Tax collection suffers and now the revenue must be made up from the governor's coffers.

In addition, the resources in question are essentially the governor's resources. No sector governor would allow the unregulated and untaxed exploitation of his resources; resources he may already have earmarked for other schemes where he stands to profit.

If I were a crown appointed sub-sector governor, I would be very interested in the activities of megacorps and merc units operating within my borders, particularly when they start disrupting or circumventing the flow of my tax credits.

 

[mike wightman]

The following is all IMHO and IMTU etc.
On a balkanised planet the Imperium will not get involved with local wars unless:
a)the war interferes with trade and the payment of Imperial tariffs and taxes;
or
b)nukes/other WMD's are used (which interfere with...).

In a star system the Imperial Navy protects merchant shipping and enforces Imperial trade rules. If planet A goes to war with planet B within the same system the Navy will only get involved if merchant ships are prevented from going about their business, or the war causes either of the two conditions mentioned previously.

Providing that both sides keep paying their taxes and don't disrupt trade/taxes then the Imperial Navy will remain neutral.

This extends to warfare between systems and between corporations, the so called trade wars (the Traveller Adventure has more on this).
Provided that the money keeps coming in the Imperial navy remains neutral and enforces the rules of war.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
IMHO, I don't think the sector and sub-sector governors would allow this to happen.

The economic stability of a sub-sector is essential to maintaining civil order and, in turn, funding a governor's plans for greatness. By allowing competing groups of profiteers to plunder planets or resources not under direct government control would result in hostilities (either between groups, with civilians, or with local government forces) that would disrupt the peace and drastically affect the local economy.

In addition, the resources in question are essentially the governor's resources. No sector governor would allow the unregulated and untaxed exploitation of his resources; resources he may already have earmarked for other schemes where he stands to profit.

If I were a crown appointed sub-sector governor, I would be very interested in the activities of megacorps and merc units operating within my borders, particularly when they start disrupting or circumventing the flow of my tax credits.

Trade wars are a feature of Traveller canon - they happen. So are invasions of one planet by another - else where do the captive government codes that crop up come from?
The nobles who rule the sub-sectors often have shares in megacorporations, so whose side do they take?
My answer is the side that will make the most money

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Lord Vince:
Scenario #1:
Mainworld-A, of Starsystem-A, has population, but NO space travel, and IS an Imperial World. NO other planet in Starsystem-A has any population.
Then, along come Outsiders (MegaCorp, Soldiers, Adventurers, etc.) into Starsystem-A. They make NO agressive moves against Mainworld-A, but settle down on an OuterSystem Gas Giant Moon, and begin building a Colony.
THE QUESTION: What is the IMPERIAL stance on this situation?
Mainworld-A has been inhabited for centuries; would it be the Imperium's position that "all worlds in a system are held in reserve for exploitation by the Mainworld"?
Or, being an organization commited to fostering Trade all across the Universe, would the Imperial Position be "if a Mainworld doesn't have the Tech to exploit in-system planets, then they are open to exploitation by anyone who can get to them"?
Or would the Imperium adopt a more middle ground attitude, and say "Planets in a Starsystem are held in reserve for the Mainworld population, HOWEVER, if the proper fees are paid, and the proper forms filled out, the Imperium can and will excercise Emminant Domain, and assign exploitation contracts to non-Mainworld interests"?

IMHO the Imperium would back the side that is exploiting the resources and making the most money, and hence paying the most in taxes to the Imperium.
Economics drives the 3rd Imperium.

Over the years, I've read of several Red Zones imposed because the "natives" were not ready for Interstellar contact. And in these Red Zones, the Imperial Navy has Interdicted the ENTIRE Starsystem! Why? What does it matter, if the Mainworld is inhabited by Tech-3 Neobarbs, that someone sets up an asteroid mining complex in the outer system?

This smacks of a "prime directive" which, as MWM and others have often pointed out, does not exist in the OTU
If the natives had something worth trading there would be trade, there are plenty of low TL planets that aren't interdicted.
IMHO a megacorp could easily "win" the rights to develop the other worlds in an interdicted system, provided that the Imperium isn't hiding something

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Trade wars are a feature of Traveller canon - they happen. So are invasions of one planet by another - else where do the captive government codes that crop up come from?
The nobles who rule the sub-sectors often have shares in megacorporations, so whose side do they take?
My answer is the side that will make the most money

Sigg, I never said that if the profit lies with anarchy that a governor wouldn't allow a little chaos to erupt.

A sub-sector governor may want a certain amount of economic and social instability on a world if only so he can put some troops on the ground, declare martial law, and install his own cronies into positions of power.

My only point is that a sub-sector governor would not want trade wars or merc action happening without a certain amount of control or input. If the situation spirals out of control into a full blown, multi-system conflict, he's the one who has to answer to the sector duke for it.

 

[mike wightman]

And that's why he instructs the Imperial Navy and Marines to keep an eye on things

This has got me thinking, how much authority do nobles have over the Imperial armed forces???

A sub-sector governor may want a certain amount of economic and social instability on a world if only so he can put some troops on the ground, declare martial law, and install his own cronies into positions of power.

This I like

 

[Ran Targas]

^ That is a great adventure for some mercenary minded PC's; start a bush war on a low pop world so the local Imperial politico can install a puppet regime. Maybe he wants some particular rival business interests removed in the process.

 

[savage]

I cannot really agree with the money first approach, Sigg. Political agreements come first. If the planet is an Imperium member world (and not just a simple culture within imperium space) the initial negotiations with that world would discuss ownership of the system. 1) perhaps the world is not interested in space travel, or its local system given that no hazzards are produced. 2) Perhaps said membership contract sells the rights... etc.

Hence, this scenario is a case- by-case basis for the subsector nobility to resolve. And that would be using subsector military forces as necessary.

Savage