Thanks. I definately misread or misremembered then.
Is it time for Jump-7 drives in Traveller?
- Thread starter Shonner
- Start date
Thanks. I definately misread or misremembered then.
casquilho
SOC-13
I will have to check the MgT HG2e rules as I love the idea of allowing the higher TL to shift the specs for equipment like the drives.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Rather than go to a Jump-7 drive, how about using a different type of drive?
Star Trek (original series) highest common level was Warp-6, or 216 times the speed of light. That is a bit over a parsec a week, 4.15 light years verses 3.26 lightyears, so that would give you a choice of getting somewhere fast, or getting somewhere farther away but taking a lot longer.
In my alternate universe, I have both Jump Drives and H. Beam Piper's hyperdrive, with the hyperdrive covering either one parsec a month or one parsec a week. Hyperdrive-1, at one parsec a month, is slow, but cheap and has a lot more room. Hyperdrive-2, at one parsec a week, is slower than Jump Drive, but does not need all of other Liquid Hydrogen tankage. I look at it as the difference between air travel, that gets you there fast, and water travel, that is slower but allows you to haul a lot more cargo. Passengers go Jump, cargo goes Hyper.
Star Trek (original series) highest common level was Warp-6, or 216 times the speed of light. That is a bit over a parsec a week, 4.15 light years verses 3.26 lightyears, so that would give you a choice of getting somewhere fast, or getting somewhere farther away but taking a lot longer.
In my alternate universe, I have both Jump Drives and H. Beam Piper's hyperdrive, with the hyperdrive covering either one parsec a month or one parsec a week. Hyperdrive-1, at one parsec a month, is slow, but cheap and has a lot more room. Hyperdrive-2, at one parsec a week, is slower than Jump Drive, but does not need all of other Liquid Hydrogen tankage. I look at it as the difference between air travel, that gets you there fast, and water travel, that is slower but allows you to haul a lot more cargo. Passengers go Jump, cargo goes Hyper.
casquilho
SOC-13
This I an interesting idea. I like where it is going.
The by-the-rules Traveller parallel is J-1 ships with fuel for multiple jumps substituting for J-2 or J-3 ships. Slower, cheaper, and with more payload space than the faster ships.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
That works best with smaller ships under the rule that the Power Plant number must equal the Jump Drive number. The jump fuel requirement is the same, but the power plant fuel is lower by the difference in Power Plant numbers times 10.
Was just noting the parallel, not getting into the details. Yes, High Guard powerplant fuel burn rates make it even cheaper.
<math nerd hat>
Another fact about Jump 7:
The nature of a hex grid is to "equalize" straight-line jumps and those "across the grain." Kinda like the Pythagorean formula on square grids, only a bit modified. (d = √(x^2 + y^2) becomes d = √(x^2 + xy + y^2), where x and y are the squares/hexes in each direction). If you do the math, a (4,3) jump is still slightly over 6 pc (√37 = 6.08+), but at jump 7 that neatness breaks down: a (4,4) jump is not 8 parsecs, but √48 = 6.928+ pc, or short enough for a J-7 ship to make.
Actually, this is true for (5,3) jumps too--they are exactly 7 pc, not 8.</math nerd hat>
o:
The Droyne are right--6s rule!
Another fact about Jump 7:
The nature of a hex grid is to "equalize" straight-line jumps and those "across the grain." Kinda like the Pythagorean formula on square grids, only a bit modified. (d = √(x^2 + y^2) becomes d = √(x^2 + xy + y^2), where x and y are the squares/hexes in each direction). If you do the math, a (4,3) jump is still slightly over 6 pc (√37 = 6.08+), but at jump 7 that neatness breaks down: a (4,4) jump is not 8 parsecs, but √48 = 6.928+ pc, or short enough for a J-7 ship to make.
Actually, this is true for (5,3) jumps too--they are exactly 7 pc, not 8.</math nerd hat>
o:The Droyne are right--6s rule!
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In the many years since I first voted for J7 I've changed my mind. Now I'd like to educe the maximum to J4.
It is already pretty much there in practice.
Unless you start using various alternative Jump fuel rules, beyond Jump-4 there is not much room left over in a starship hull for commercial revenue-generation or military force-projection capabilities. You can of course contrive special case exceptions to this rule of thumb, but it holds generally.
Most things I have seen fleeter than Jump-4 are either high-value couriers or high-tech exceptions to baseline starship design. (Or flat-out broken: looking at you, Lightning-class cruisers.)
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Going by the standard current jump formulation, that's seventy percent bunkerage, and seventeen and a half percent jump drive plus five tonnes, so in a large enough hull, so possible in a large enough hull.
Probably the only role worthwhile would be fast courier.
As regards the Azhantis, they still have a third volume available for a payload.
Probably the only role worthwhile would be fast courier.
As regards the Azhantis, they still have a third volume available for a payload.
Is this formula still true for large LBB2 drives, especially the "magic Z"?
A Size Y drive has a rating of 4 in a 2000 ton hull, and so should (but doesn't) have a rating of 8 in a 1000Td hull. Jump drive and power plant Y total 190 tons, so it's 19% of 1000Td.
This is one of the exceptions on the drive potential table. Size Z drives get a lot more exceptions, and bigger ones too -- they just don't fit quite as neatly into the hull sizes if you're trying to get close to a rating of 7.
The biggest variation is Size Z in 2000Td: if it followed the rest of the table, it would have a rating of 2.4, but it's rated at 6. That's 198 tons (barely 10%) for J6 and its power plant.
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Quick numbers:
1000 ton hull, J8 (fuel and tech limits to J7)/1G/Pn8
Jump Y (120), MD E (16), PP Y (70): 216 tons drives
20 tons bridge
770 tons fuel
...doesn't fit.
1000 ton hull, J8 (fuel and tech limits to J7)/1G/Pn8
Jump Y (120), MD E (16), PP Y (70): 216 tons drives
20 tons bridge
770 tons fuel
...doesn't fit.
All of which gets shot out of the sky on the first round of combat in a cascade of critical hits due to the utter absence of Agility in what is otherwise a capital ship. The Lightnings were designed with HG1 in mind, when Agility was only used to determine Initiative and resolve Pursuits.
Lightnings are great for Wine Runs from Capital to Terra and back, I suppose. And intimidating Vargr corsairs if you are a particularly ambitious merchant prince, perhaps. Not much else -- they are too slow to survive a major firefight and too expensive to pay for themselves hauling (ordinary) freight around.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Better comparison would be with the Deutschland class of commerce raiders, where you in strategic movement outrange anything you can't outfight.
Ideally, remaining a ghost.
Ideally, remaining a ghost.
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Well, that's why freight rates would be per parsec with priority surcharges for higher jump numbers...
I don't think you run large trade ships in pirate-infested waters, so to speak.
Spammer woke the thread, and I'm slightly bored, so...
So either the Lightnings are different than presented (upgrading to 3G/Agility 3 from the canon 2G/Agility 1 takes an additional 9% of tonnage; this should improve survivability a little)...
...or they fight under first edition rules.
So either the Lightnings are different than presented (upgrading to 3G/Agility 3 from the canon 2G/Agility 1 takes an additional 9% of tonnage; this should improve survivability a little)...
...or they fight under first edition rules.
Jump 7 and 8 IMTU
Jump 7 and 8 are available IMTU with this background.
The manufacturing capability for J7 and J8 are imperfect. They are based on Artifacts that were reverse engineered using organic molecular circuitry incorrectly understood and wrongly copied. The misjump probabilities are much higher than normal.
Two ancient ships were found in asteroid belts in different sectors each massively damaged with malfunctioning statis fields. The statis fields on the jump 8 ship would flicker randomly. It would shut off for a few hours each few years allowing asteroid hits and radiation damage before reactivating. The jump 7 ship became incased in accumulated rock from the asteroid belt it called home becoming the base kernel of a larger asteroid. Its stasis field generator was damaged in an attack, causing it to fail completely over time. It spent many eons being crushed in it’s asteroid. The organic circuits decayed into a sludge.
Vargr miners from a tech 12 system found the jump 8 ship and were caught when the statis field reactivated. They were able to return to their ship after a dozen years of stasis. Realizing what they discovered and its value to the clan, they tagged the rock and went for assistance. The tale of their survival and discovery was held as a critical secret of the clan. Their deployment of a solar panel for power during their long years of stasis imprisonment lead automatically deploying solar panels to be a design requirement of all clan ships. A Vargr manned base was dug into the asteroid for when the stasis field shut down again. They were able to shut the field down permanently. Several discoveries were made helping the clan raise its tech level quickly from 12 to 14. Their scientists were able eventually to reproduce a jump 8 drive, but without the original control circuits it was subject to misjump accidents that usually mangled the ship dropping it in deep space. Six ships using parts from the ancient ship arrived at the programmed destination adrift without anyone aboard. A close examination discovered organic molecular circuits in place of the factory installed crystalline circuits. A scientist that suggested the crew were transformed into the new circuits was disbarred when he suggested that more tries be made with volunteer crews. Not one Vargr volunteered to die that way. The clan has five jump 8 400 Dtons ships used for courier duty and scouting. One ship was taken by a rival clan raider and use it very successfully as a pirate. The markings on the ship are streaks of green, orange and deep purple starting at the nose and spiraling down the fuselage.
The jump 7 ship was found by a human imperial crew in a Seeker in the Spinward Marches. Their efforts to sell the drive to a local baron were fatal to both the crew then the baron when the Duke found out. The seeker was thoroughly scanned then flown into the local sun. The ancient ship was found and taken to an Imperial research station. Several dozen ships were fitted with copied drives and tested. The project was saved with data dumps to a naval base a parsec away. A ship jump test caused the ship to misjump from the 100-diameter limit to the research station on the planet surface transposing matter into occupied space creating a small temporary black hole leaving a crater halfway to the planetary center. The black hole decayed spectacularly in a millisecond shattering the planet and everything within the 100-diameter limit. The gravity wave hit the other planets disturbing them in their orbits causing more damage. The few survivors in the system were in fuel shuttles making runs into the local gas giant.
The notes of the jump project were used to finally recreate an 800-ton ship capable of jump 7. A security system built into the new drives will cause the ship to intentionally jump into the center of the nearest star if security procedures are not properly completed when each jump is initiated. The ships are in the Emperors service as couriers. The number and names of the ships are Classified Emperors service only. The ships are produced at a classified shipyard somewhere in Deneb sector and require very rare chemicals difficult to make to complete the drives. Attempts to use the drives in any other ships caused loss of the ship every time. Tests still continue at a remote classified research station.
The Jump 7 drive includes an integral antimatter power plant with Hydrogen fuel used for the jump bubble at 35 percent of total tonnage.
The Jump 8 drive requires a power plant of TL 14 of 32 tons and 80 tons of refined hydrogen fuel in a 400 ton hull.
Jump 7 and 8 are available IMTU with this background.
The manufacturing capability for J7 and J8 are imperfect. They are based on Artifacts that were reverse engineered using organic molecular circuitry incorrectly understood and wrongly copied. The misjump probabilities are much higher than normal.
Two ancient ships were found in asteroid belts in different sectors each massively damaged with malfunctioning statis fields. The statis fields on the jump 8 ship would flicker randomly. It would shut off for a few hours each few years allowing asteroid hits and radiation damage before reactivating. The jump 7 ship became incased in accumulated rock from the asteroid belt it called home becoming the base kernel of a larger asteroid. Its stasis field generator was damaged in an attack, causing it to fail completely over time. It spent many eons being crushed in it’s asteroid. The organic circuits decayed into a sludge.
Vargr miners from a tech 12 system found the jump 8 ship and were caught when the statis field reactivated. They were able to return to their ship after a dozen years of stasis. Realizing what they discovered and its value to the clan, they tagged the rock and went for assistance. The tale of their survival and discovery was held as a critical secret of the clan. Their deployment of a solar panel for power during their long years of stasis imprisonment lead automatically deploying solar panels to be a design requirement of all clan ships. A Vargr manned base was dug into the asteroid for when the stasis field shut down again. They were able to shut the field down permanently. Several discoveries were made helping the clan raise its tech level quickly from 12 to 14. Their scientists were able eventually to reproduce a jump 8 drive, but without the original control circuits it was subject to misjump accidents that usually mangled the ship dropping it in deep space. Six ships using parts from the ancient ship arrived at the programmed destination adrift without anyone aboard. A close examination discovered organic molecular circuits in place of the factory installed crystalline circuits. A scientist that suggested the crew were transformed into the new circuits was disbarred when he suggested that more tries be made with volunteer crews. Not one Vargr volunteered to die that way. The clan has five jump 8 400 Dtons ships used for courier duty and scouting. One ship was taken by a rival clan raider and use it very successfully as a pirate. The markings on the ship are streaks of green, orange and deep purple starting at the nose and spiraling down the fuselage.
The jump 7 ship was found by a human imperial crew in a Seeker in the Spinward Marches. Their efforts to sell the drive to a local baron were fatal to both the crew then the baron when the Duke found out. The seeker was thoroughly scanned then flown into the local sun. The ancient ship was found and taken to an Imperial research station. Several dozen ships were fitted with copied drives and tested. The project was saved with data dumps to a naval base a parsec away. A ship jump test caused the ship to misjump from the 100-diameter limit to the research station on the planet surface transposing matter into occupied space creating a small temporary black hole leaving a crater halfway to the planetary center. The black hole decayed spectacularly in a millisecond shattering the planet and everything within the 100-diameter limit. The gravity wave hit the other planets disturbing them in their orbits causing more damage. The few survivors in the system were in fuel shuttles making runs into the local gas giant.
The notes of the jump project were used to finally recreate an 800-ton ship capable of jump 7. A security system built into the new drives will cause the ship to intentionally jump into the center of the nearest star if security procedures are not properly completed when each jump is initiated. The ships are in the Emperors service as couriers. The number and names of the ships are Classified Emperors service only. The ships are produced at a classified shipyard somewhere in Deneb sector and require very rare chemicals difficult to make to complete the drives. Attempts to use the drives in any other ships caused loss of the ship every time. Tests still continue at a remote classified research station.
The Jump 7 drive includes an integral antimatter power plant with Hydrogen fuel used for the jump bubble at 35 percent of total tonnage.
The Jump 8 drive requires a power plant of TL 14 of 32 tons and 80 tons of refined hydrogen fuel in a 400 ton hull.
