Is it time for Jump-7 drives in Traveller?

[whartung]

That's a great point. The metaphor Marc used was that of the Interstate highway system, connecting major population centers while bypassing all of the nothing-towns that used to thrive on the state highways. Route 66 is dotted with now-unvisited towns, since I-40 is a much more convenient way to get around.

Also, today, consider the term "flyover country" and how it's used as a negative context.

You can also see it in other ways: the decline of "brick and mortar" retail, how improved efficiency, lower labor, plus international sources affect the plains states and the decline of farms and small farming communities.

Heck, simply the reliability of modern vehicles, the improved create comforts, and higher highway speeds contribute.

 

[ovka]

I like the fact that the trade routes are forced to go through systems that would be backwaters with higher rated drives. It gives a greater variety of systems to visit.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[robject]

I like the fact that the trade routes are forced to go through systems that would be backwaters with higher rated drives. It gives a greater variety of systems to visit.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

I do too. I see this as a primary design intent of Traveller, probably from the very beginning.

 

[Cryton]

Jump-7? TL 17. And only feasible due to Anti-Matter power.

Funny enough, TL17 is also the earliest Hop-1 can be discovered as well.

So the real question is, Jump-7 or Hop-1, and thats is up to either the Ref, or the Setting.

Just sayin'

~Cryton

 

[aramis]

Jump-7? TL 17. And only feasible due to Anti-Matter power.

Funny enough, TL17 is also the earliest Hop-1 can be discovered as well.

So the real question is, Jump-7 or Hop-1, and thats is up to either the Ref, or the Setting.

Just sayin'

~Cryton

Wrong. Drop tanks can make J7 feasible.

 

[whulorigan]

Jump-7? TL 17. And only feasible due to Anti-Matter power.

Funny enough, TL17 is also the earliest Hop-1 can be discovered as well.

So the real question is, Jump-7 or Hop-1, and thats is up to either the Ref, or the Setting.

I believe under the T5 ruleset, Jump-7 becomes available at TL16 (but Hop-1 is TL17).

 

[aramis]

I believe under the T5 ruleset, Jump-7 becomes available at TL16 (but Hop-1 is TL17).

Technically, they become available 3 TL's earlier than that... in experimental drives. But that's only if you actually have the required theoretical breakthroughs, which are semi-independent of TL; no jump improvement is automatically learned by TL gains alone, nor new drive types.

 

[robject]

I can see an adventure where the players use a Prototype Jump-7 ship produced at TL15. I imagine it would be cramped, bulky, finicky, and annoying to use, but otherwise, well, using Jump 7 for the first time would feel quite liberating.

 

[whulorigan]

Technically, they become available 3 TL's earlier than that... in experimental drives. But that's only if you actually have the required theoretical breakthroughs, which are semi-independent of TL; no jump improvement is automatically learned by TL gains alone, nor new drive types.

But if my understanding of stages is correct, those Experimental/Prototype/Early Hop Drives at -3, -2, and -1 TL would not be able to make Hop-1, correct, due to lesser Hop efficiency (or am I misunderstanding)?

 

[aramis]

But if my understanding of stages is correct, those Experimental/Prototype/Early Hop Drives at -3, -2, and -1 TL would not be able to make Hop-1, correct, due to lesser Hop efficiency (or am I misunderstanding)?

Or they'd have to be larger than standard.

 

[robject]

But if my understanding of stages is correct, those Experimental/Prototype/Early Hop Drives at -3, -2, and -1 TL would not be able to make Hop-1, correct, due to lesser Hop efficiency (or am I misunderstanding)?

That was my understanding too, but I find that it's just too tempting to leave it at that.... otherwise why even bother mentioning it, Marc!?!?? So I do what Aramis suggests and require a bigger drive setup. (Even then I'm not sure what the "correct" way is).

Another likelihood is that it is unsafe and unreliable. It doesn't work very often, and sometimes it explodes.

"Early" is a harder nut to crack. If Early is mass-produced at TL-1, then shouldn't TL16 see mass-produced hop drives which actually work?!?! I need clearer guidance from the text here.

 

[whulorigan]

That was my understanding too, but I find that it's just too tempting to leave it at that.... otherwise why even bother mentioning it, Marc!?!?? So I do what Aramis suggests and require a bigger drive setup. (Even then I'm not sure what the "correct" way is).

Another likelihood is that it is unsafe and unreliable. It doesn't work very often, and sometimes it explodes.

"Early" is a harder nut to crack. If Early is mass-produced at TL-1, then shouldn't TL16 see mass-produced hop drives which actually work?!?! I need clearer guidance from the text here.

My thoughts would be based on a post I made some time ago in another thread:

For Below Standard TL:

EXPERIMENTAL Drives (and perhaps PROTOTYPE as well) would be found nowhere except at an Imperial (or Megacorporate) Research Station.

EARLY Drives would be found in limited use in the military/government for specialized purposes.


For Above Standard TL (IMPROVED thru ULTIMATE):

I would think what was produced at a given shipyard would be dependent upon the particular economic factors and cultural details of the world.

Typically one would expect the Shipyard to be able to produce the STANDARD or GENERIC version of the drive (which is cheaper). A poor economy might instead produce the BASIC version of the Drive.

An economic powerhouse or industrial center might produce the more efficient drives (IMPROVED thru ULTIMATE) as a standard option over STANDARD / GENERIC.

The above might not be limited to drives alone, but to all technology.

Another thought would be that your drive efficiency will always be based on a performance factor with "fractions dropped"; so a Hop-1 drive at an earlier stage whose efficiency does not at least = 1.0000000 would operate only at "Hop-0" (i.e. greater than Jump-9 but less than "Jump-10"/Hop-1).

 

[robject]

My thoughts would be based on a post I made some time ago in another thread:

EXPERIMENTAL Drives (and perhaps PROTOTYPE as well) would be found nowhere except at an Imperial (or Megacorporate) Research Station.

EARLY Drives would be found in limited use in the military/government for specialized purposes.

Another thought would be that your drive efficiency will always be based on a performance factor with "fractions dropped"; so a Hop-1 drive at an earlier stage whose efficiency does not at least = 1.0000000 would operate only at "Hop-0" (i.e. greater than Jump-9 but less than "Jump-10"/Hop-1).

I think your thoughts on Experiments and Prototypes are generally reasonable.

Early has no satisfactory market interpretation for interstellar drives. The only thing that makes sense is that it early mass-production doesn't work for jump, hop, etc.

 

[Straybow]

No, it's time for 3D map... no J7 needed. Heck, anything beyond J3 would be a waste, generally.

 

[whulorigan]

No, it's time for 3D map...

I'll second that.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I'll 3D that.

 

[casquilho]

So if they made a J-7 or greater would that also result in lower jump drives becoming smaller and/or cheaper and/or more efficient thus less fuel needed?

 

[JimMarn]

So if they made a J-7 or greater would that also result in lower jump drives becoming smaller and/or cheaper and/or more efficient thus less fuel needed?

Isn't that happened with earlier Jump drives ?

 

[aramis]

Isn't that happened with earlier Jump drives ?

No. Well, qualified no.

In CT, no. The J1 drive is the same size (and price) no matter the TL, provided it's the minimum TL9. Further, it uses the same fuel rate without regard to TL as well. And while the higher drives are more efficient per parsec of range, the minimum size drive for a given hull always increases with J#.

In MT, the drive doesn't change, but eventually (TL18+), the rate of fuel use drops.

TNE follows MT's lead; IIRC, so also does T4, but the initial relationship is slightly different from MT. In any case, the drive itself does not drop in size, mass, nor cost by TL.

Only with T5 is there the option to build a drive smaller by building it at higher TL. It's far less than dividing a higher rating drive by its rating would generate, tho.

 

[mike wightman]

You neglected to mention MgT HG2e - the jump drive has lots of options for fuel efficiency, size reduction etc as TL increases.
Some of these have made their way into official MgT 3I supplements and are broadly compatible with the T5 rules.

So what we really need rather than jump 7 are conversion rules for the new rules in T5/MgT HG2e to retcon CT and HG 3I designs...