Is it time for Jump-7 drives in Traveller?
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Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Part of the charm and character of Traveller is that you cannot zoom around the galaxy. You have to plod from system to system. A better experiance is had, in my opinion, by having the players forced.... forced.... into interacting more on mundane things that are often familiar to them. This is in contrast to their always finding incredible ancient technology or being able to burn down whole armies with plasma weapons.
Enoki -
You're just the sort of player I'd like to have in my campaigns; and the sort fo referee in whose campaigns I'd like to play!
You're just the sort of player I'd like to have in my campaigns; and the sort fo referee in whose campaigns I'd like to play!
From what I've heard, Traveller5 is a big list of rules and tables, with no information or advice about how any of that affects the setting.
What's your source, and which other Traveller rulesets is that comparison being drawn against?
captainjack
SOC-13
Originally Posted by fusor
From what I've heard, Traveller5 is a big list of rules and tables, with no information or advice about how any of that affects the setting.
What's your source, and which other Traveller rulesets is that comparison being drawn against?
"From what I've heard" seems to pretty much sum it up.
Fusor, the only thing more common than hydrogen is gossip -and in gaming circles the two biggest categories of gossip are 1. Wishful, and 2. Malicious. Keep that in mind, and you'll be happier and less upset by final results.
captainjack
SOC-13
Well, yes. Keep in mind that each iteration of travel improvements left the previous infrastructure behind. Route 66 & the personal car left many rail towns in the middle of nowhere, too.
It must have happened already when the Vilanii empire was surpassed after millenium of J-2. As much as the collapse, I've always felt that that was as responsible for all the retro & antique tech worlds one encounters as anything else.
"Wow. A water wheel ? "
"Yup, well, we haaad fusion packs in the old days, but the ships just stopped comin by when they didn't have ta fill up no more ..."
"It wasn't because pirates destroyed your technology ?
"Nope. What'd we have thet they'd want ?"
I don't see it as a problem, but rather a feature simulating both change in a living society, and encouraging diversity for the gaming experience. But, YMMV.
Traveller changes and the reactionaries resist; Traveller endures, and the revolutionaries resist. It's still 2d6 for 8+ to me.......
Just what I've heard generally here and elsewhere, that it's nothing but hundreds of pages of rules, with little setting-specific material. Is that correct?
captainjack
SOC-13
Well, if it is, given your dislike of the TU, that should be a selling point for you, right ?
As to hundreds of pages ? See, its an RPG, and these days quite a few new ones can double as a doorstop; it seems to be the evolution of the market, and since all evolution and pacekeeping with current RPG design fads is good, well, that's got to be a plus, right ?
Finally, if it's just rules, thenit spares us the current vogue for extended self-indulgent attempts at fiction and fanfluff; which would be a plus for me regardless of length. But you may see such as a necessary part of your RPG rules experience, YMMV.
BUT, this isn't what the thread is about, my apologies for sidetracking. Fusor, you can always slake your curiosity by asking in the T5 open boards.
Do you really think that? I certainly didn't say or suggest that.
In my opinion, rules should be concise, and reduced to the minimum necessary to play the game. Also, the only "doorstop" game I can think of is the Hero RPG, and I don't like that much either and I haven't seen such a trend for "doorstop games" recently. I also don't think that "following current RPG design fads" is necessarily a good thing either (it can be sometimes, but not every time). So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree if that is what you believe.
Anyway, I'm sure that robject can answer my question, and probably in a less patronizing manner. But as you said, this is a sidetrack.
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captainjack
SOC-13
fair enough. Perhaps I mistook you for someone else. Its not a point I agree with, but it is one which is important to many; so I thought I'd address it.
Well....D&D 3.5, 4.0, Pathfinder, WOD, any fantasy rpg setting it seems; Rogue trader, any of the space marine set of RPGs, Dr Who, Starblazers, FATE, etc etc. And those are the comon ones. Honestly it seems that the average is around 3-500 pages. Given your preferences, count your self lucky if you don't know. Its baaaaad.
[edit: I left out Battletech (RPG and game), W40K,Warhammer, Flames of war 'cause they are mostly miniatures games, but there there too, stopping up the door]
Actually if one counts needed supplements to core rules, it gets worse.
MGTraveller, thus far, isn't too bad that way.
Again, if you want to find out what t5 is about, rather than just posting "I heard posts", you could ask in one of the t5 sections
Strange that you found that patronizing, given your other posts here. Oh well. As you said, agree to disagree. pm if you want to say more.
On track: So, what do you think about j-7 ?
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At present, the T5 rules ARE concise. Too concise in many cases. There just happen to be LOTS of them. More than half of it is tables. Well though out, usually, but not explained well enough.
The T5 draft essentially includes a replacement for FF&S, as well as lots and lots of updated and expanded elements. It includes changes to the nature of JSpace. (But note: JDrives don't change their volume any downward in T5 over J6... well, if you use AM Slugs instead of H2, sure... And, since the AM can be used in place of H2, it's clear that it's NOT a hydrogen bubble holding open the jump bubble.)
Oh, and you CAN build the Annic Nova with it.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Hmm, half tables? that doesn't sell it to me.
Gimme formulae any day - you kill half the number of trees and it's easier to interpolate/extrapolate results.
You could use some of the saved paper giving decent explanations. And as for the time and trouble setting out... :nonono:
So I guess the logic now (insofar as there is any) is that the 'bubble' is just 'stuff' rather than hydrogen? Though antimatter (I presume that's what you mean by "AM"?) is very expensive "stuff" to waste on a jump bubble. Also, an AM bubble would annihilate the ship if any part of of it touched it, which seems even more crazy.
I'm not sure I see why this should be a selling point, personally - I don't think the entire current shipbuilding system is invalidated just because it can't build one obscure alien ship according to the rules. If you can build Jump Torpedoes that might make it a little more interesting though.
And a large "doorstop" RPG that is over half-full of poorly explained tables is definitely NOT a selling point to me. I wouldn't consider a large book that is more than half-filled with tables to be "concise" either. How many of those tables are actually vital for playing the game? If most are not, then those shouldn't be in the core rules. If all those (hundreds of?) pages of tables really are all vital for playing the game... then it sounds like something is very wrong with the system!
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Hmm, half tables? that doesn't sell it to me.
Gimme formulae any day - you kill half the number of trees and it's easier to interpolate/extrapolate results.
You could use some of the saved paper giving decent explanations. And as for the time and trouble setting out... :nonono:
Tree farms provide paper. So gimme all the tables you can make.
I know the "bubble" was created to explain away where all the jump fuel went but I never bought into it . . .
Jump grids or Jump Plates form the T5 Jump Bubble, not the fuel used for jump. It's well grounded in the DGP-released model of jump from SSOM, and it looks like MWM either gave them that model to work with, or MWM adopted their model.
Further, it gives MORE options in tabular form than did FF&S, but with a complexity level on par with MGT for ship design. (It's big failing in my view is T4 style character gen. Ick.
Many of the formulae are obvious from the table, and the way the table is indexed one can more easily find the formulae than in CT. JD are still 5Td+(5Td per 200Td of hull), and 10% hull for fuel.
I do agree than having the formulae would be good, but the tables are very useful.
One area where the tables are particularly nice is in the System Generation rules. They're surprisingly well done. And backwards adaptable.
The addition of landing gear is nice. There is a distinction between winged, lifting body, merely streamlined, and unstreamlined.
Lots of the flavor text stuff from CT era now has mechanical ways to be installed (The SDB, forex, now has a mechanical means to be submersible)
Further, it gives MORE options in tabular form than did FF&S, but with a complexity level on par with MGT for ship design. (It's big failing in my view is T4 style character gen. Ick.
Many of the formulae are obvious from the table, and the way the table is indexed one can more easily find the formulae than in CT. JD are still 5Td+(5Td per 200Td of hull), and 10% hull for fuel.
I do agree than having the formulae would be good, but the tables are very useful.
One area where the tables are particularly nice is in the System Generation rules. They're surprisingly well done. And backwards adaptable.
The addition of landing gear is nice. There is a distinction between winged, lifting body, merely streamlined, and unstreamlined.
Lots of the flavor text stuff from CT era now has mechanical ways to be installed (The SDB, forex, now has a mechanical means to be submersible)
captainjack
SOC-13
Like CT, It seems that the goal is a toolkit for building a game as much as playing it. The refs can use more or less, depending on the detail they want to focus on. In other words, not all of the tables and rules are needed for all games, but just about all games can be handled. As an example, I've got toolbox that includes a few hexmetric wrenches I've never used, but, when I want to own a Zil, by god, I'll be ready..
.And its still shorter than the combined mass of D&D non-core-but-still-a neccesary-rule-book books, which sold by the ton.
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