Is T5 a game in itself?

[Anja]

Hello,
I am Anja and I have been around a little while but not really posted anything. I grew up with Traveller as my neigbour's father started to GM me, and his two daughters when i was 7 and later a guy whom I actually married. Now a little more than 20 years (of playing the same campaign) later Traveller5 is out and I am a bit confused about this game.

I just want to say before i ask any questions, none of them are inteded to badmouth T5, Marc Miller or his company.

1) Is this a game? From what I have read on various reviews, most of them complain that it is a bible of complex charts and unecesaary tables of stuff that only makes it difficult to run a smooth game.
From what I have understood, the Core book appears to be the main rules where you can build everything in the Traveller Universe. From a torch to an Ancient battlecruiser.

2) What time setting is it in? One thing I love about Traveller is that there were so many different timesettings covered. From Milleu 0, IY 1000, 1100, 1116, 1125-1130, 1201 and 1248. It made the gae never get too stale or boring. When you were tired of Milleu 0, you could switch to the battles of the Rebellion or why not trying to rebuild the Charted Space with RCES.

3) How much info is there on the Imperial Space and how it is run? One thing that Traveller really lacked was a comprahensive "Player's Guide to the Chartered Space". I know that GDW was planning to do one for the REformation Coalition before they went down. But this is one thing that I have always wanted.

4) Are there more books planned and in the case of FFE having named any of those, what are their titles?

5) Does anyone know of a neutral and critical analysis of the Traveller5 book? Most I have found is really complaining.

6) What do you like most of the new edition, what is bad with it?

Again I want to stress that I do not want to claim that it is not a game, but I usually do not buy a game that is only rules and item builder. I want a setting as well. SO is it a "creation/rules book" or is it a full game with descriptions of the Imperium and such?

Love,
Anja

 

[atpollard]

I look forward to seeing the answer to some of these myself.

1) Is this a game? From what I have read on various reviews, most of them complain that it is a bible of complex charts and unnecessary tables of stuff that only makes it difficult to run a smooth game.
From what I have understood, the Core book appears to be the main rules where you can build everything in the Traveller Universe. From a torch to an Ancient battlecruiser.

Until a more complete answer comes along, I can offer what I know.
It is a 'complete game' in the sense that it contains all of the sort of rules that you would find in the Mongoose Traveller Core Rules or Classic Traveller Little Black Books 1-3.
(I do not know how much setting material it includes.)

People who actually play it tell me that the book places things in lots of places, so you need to flip around a lot to learn to play, but the actual game plays very quickly.
I have also heard that there are areas of play that could use some clarification (like fistfights with NPCs if I remember correctly).
There is a team of people working on a revision/clarification to address those details that need clarification/modification.

Something worth pointing out is that it is not just a 'Core Rule'.
While it does contain all the basic rules to play, it also contains all of the rules to make stuff (Like Striker from Classic Traveller or Fire, Fusion and Steel from The New Era).
Thus the 700 page book.
It contains what would typically be spread between a core rule book and multiple add on books.
For example, rather than publish a string of T5 Alien books, the T5 core book contains detailed rules for creating your own aliens.

The rest of your questions, I leave for those more familiar to answer.

 

[whulorigan]

2) What time setting is it in? One thing I love about Traveller is that there were so many different timesettings covered. From Milleu 0, IY 1000, 1100, 1116, 1125-1130, 1201 and 1248. It made the gae never get too stale or boring. When you were tired of Milleu 0, you could switch to the battles of the Rebellion or why not trying to rebuild the Charted Space with RCES.

3) How much info is there on the Imperial Space and how it is run? One thing that Traveller really lacked was a comprahensive "Player's Guide to the Chartered Space". I know that GDW was planning to do one for the REformation Coalition before they went down. But this is one thing that I have always wanted.

There is some general background information relating to the OTU, but it is not extensive (certainly nothing approaching a "Player's Guide to Charted Space"). The background info it does provide tends to evoke the early CT:LBBs (general setting presuppositions and cursory overview information).

There is no particular Milieu timeframe associated with the T5 rules (though most of the example text in the book tends to be using the ca. 1105 era). Also, the T5 Second Survey data that is used on the Traveller Map website (http://www.travellermap.com) is dated ca 1105.

However, there is a planned expansion of the OTU Milieu (thru later publications presumably) that takes the OTU into the "Galaxiad" Era, which supposedly takes place ca year 1900 at high TL (TL 17+, if I am not mistaken) with post-Jump Drive FTL Drives (i.e. a much larger swath of the Galaxy is opened up to exploration).

 

[KDLadage]

These are my thought (e.g., the thoughts of some random guy on the internet) so take it all with a grain of salt.

1) Is this a game?

This is a game. It is a very complete game, actually. You can play with it just as it is and need nothing else. It has some errata and some rough edges that are being worked on. But yes, it is a game.

From what I have read on various reviews, most of them complain that it is a bible of complex charts and unecesaary tables of stuff that only makes it difficult to run a smooth game.

Organization is an issue. But it is not an insurmountable one. Especially if you are (as you state) familiar with Traveller and it's history in general.

From what I have understood, the Core book appears to be the main rules where you can build everything in the Traveller Universe. From a torch to an Ancient battlecruiser.

For the most part, that is an accurate statement.

2) What time setting is it in?

As an RPG, it is set in any setting you want it to be in. That said, this book is designed to support all of the Traveller settings, your Traveller Universe, and anything else really.

One thing I love about Traveller is that there were so many different timesettings covered. From Milleu 0, IY 1000, 1100, 1116, 1125-1130, 1201 and 1248. It made the gae never get too stale or boring. When you were tired of Milleu 0, you could switch to the battles of the Rebellion or why not trying to rebuild the Charted Space with RCES.

Not much to be added here. You hit the nail on the head with that statement.

3) How much info is there on the Imperial Space and how it is run?

About as much as has been included in previous core rules.

One thing that Traveller really lacked was a comprahensive "Player's Guide to the Chartered Space". I know that GDW was planning to do one for the REformation Coalition before they went down. But this is one thing that I have always wanted.

In my opinion, this book does little to fill this need.

4) Are there more books planned and in the case of FFE having named any of those, what are their titles?

You and I both are, then, awaiting some sort of roadmap for T5. I hope the release one at some point. But for now, we are in the dark (unless there is one posted someplace of which I am not aware).

5) Does anyone know of a neutral and critical analysis of the Traveller5 book? Most I have found is really complaining.

I wrote a second look article. I think it would be a bit self-serving to point you to it here. Message me and I will give you a link to that article.

6) What do you like most of the new edition, what is bad with it?

That would take up more time than I am willing to spend here right now. Perhaps another time.

 

[McPerth]

Just remember that neither CT nor D&D has any setting when they were released, and yet no one questioned them as games.

Some RPG are setting dependent (T2K, 2300AD, MERP, StarTreck, Star Wars, etc...), so setting is important in them, to the point of being part of it, while others are more free (GURPS being the most paradigmatical, but also CT, D&D, etc..), and all of them are games, and all of them can be quite fun.

The various Traveller versions varied mong those two cathegories, MT and TNE being probaly the most setting dependent, while CT (at leat at its begining), MgT and T5 (for what I've read, mostly in this world) being the most free form, while T4 was mid-way and I don't know about GT, T20 and TH.

While those free form use to require more work from the referee (as he/she must develop his setting), it also allows to play in settings that have no game associated, but, as I already said, both can be quite fun, adn, off cours, both kinds are games.

BTW, wellcome to the board, as you say this is your first post

 

[robject]

Hi Anja,

Yes, T5 is a full-on game. As a very rough comparison, it is similar to several core books together in one volume. For example, 20 years ago, Marc Miller's Traveller ("T4") came out. The T5 Core Rules are organized as if several T4 or T4-like books were bundled together:

Characters and Combat
Clones and Genetics
Fire, Fusion, and Steel 3, Lite
Starships
Starship Operator's Handbook
World Surveyor's Handbook
Robots and Androids
...plus a handout giving a light overview of all eras in the official Traveller universe.

The setting overviews go over the various time periods for adventuring in "Charted Space" in the official Traveller universe. Two settings in particular are used for character, world, and ship examples: the 1105 era, and a "far far future" era yet to be detailed. The rules themselves are designed for adventuring in any of these eras, and go to some lengths to span technological levels that allow this.

Last I checked, a guide to the Third Imperium is on the wish list for Mongoose Traveller. (The nice thing about background material is that it is largely rules-agnostic.)

A revised T5 core rules is in the making, due to a great degree to feedback from the first printing. Organizational and content fixes have been in the works, and Don McKinney is helping keep Marc on task. Once that's done, a Player's Guide can be produced, and other associated, smaller volumes derived from the core rules.

There is one adventure available for T5: "Cirque" by Greg Lee. There is an additional adventure in the planning stages. Finally, there is a "Galaxiad" adventure also in the planning stages, which deals with the "Far Far Future" setting mentioned before.

There ARE a couple of neutral and constructive criticisms of Traveller5 out there. I don't have the links handy

The biggest problems I have with the book is organization and editing.

Rob

 

[DickNervous]

You can look at every RPG that was ever made, both pen & paper and video game, and break them down into to components:

• Story: The story, setting, flavor, color, whatever you want to call it. For some games these two things are tied very closely together, some not so much.
• Rules: The rules, game mechanics, and tools that explain how the game works. How are characters defined? How do you determine what weapons you can use? How do you hit someone?

The easiest way to think of it is to look at video games like Skyrim. The rules are the tools that Bethesda used to create the world. The story is, well, the story. The why things happen.

Traveller, more than most RPGs, has always been heavy on the rules and light on the story, at least when it comes down to the core rule books. None of them have ever elaborated in great deal about the setting and story beyond setting some history and example. That always came in the adventures and additional materials. And as others have pointed out, even D&D had no "official setting" at first.

From everything I have read and seen and explored with T5 I think an accurate way to describe it be that it is a very sophisticated and detailed gaming engine and tool box for building and creating you own adventures. Adventures that can be based in the rich and complex existing Traveller universe of one of your own making. But then, isn't that what all tabletop RPGs are supposed to be?

As for "issues", I think robject hit it on the head that it could use some optimization in organization. Very much like my home office can....

 

[Timerover51]

See following thread before going farther with this very large can of worms.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/announcement.php?f=23&a=47

 

[KDLadage]

Good point.

I think, prior to getting too much further, this thread should be locked down. There is no reason to answer a question when the current rules and environment will not allow anything other than "yes" as an answer.

Armin has good reason to stamp out such discussions. Let's close this one down before he has to.

 

[atpollard]

Without getting too much into "how sausage is made" (ie. the behind the scene nuts and bolts of the website and its administration) ... I would like to say that I (atpollard) uncloaked this topic for others to see, posted the first response and reported this topic to the other administrators and moderators as one to be closely watched.

My reasons are two-fold.

• This is a chance to demonstrate what has been said ... criticism is not banned, just empty game bashing.
• The opening post raises some good questions that are potentially worthy of discussion.

Let me state that the opening topic (and name of this topic) is inaccurately worded.
Of course T5 is a game just like every other game ever published is a game.
Her underlying question is really "Is T5 just Rules or is it a Setting?"

Setting aside the dead horse from a hundred previous arguments (no it is not perfect/no it is not unplayable), the opening post raises two questions that ARE worthy of discussion:

Question One:
Does T5 (book or CD) contain everything needed to play Traveller?
(and the related ... How much does a Referee need to do/create/find to get ready to play?)

Question Two:
Is T5 mostly a "core book" plus "Fire, Fusion & Steel" or does it contain lots of information on the "Official Traveller Universe"?


To address Anja's apparent basic underlying question ...
T5 appears to be mostly rules and makers with very little "Setting" data.
Closer to the Mongoose "Traveller (core) Book" than the various Mongoose "Third Imperium" books.
It is probably not the detailed setting book that she seems to be after.


So the question for anyone else looking at T5 becomes ... what does a Ref need to do to be ready to play and does T5 (book or CD) have what I need to do it?
I believe that there is room here for an honest discussion about what T5 (book and CD) is, and is not ... what it can, and can not do.
That is what I was hoping for from this topic ... come let us reason together.

 

[Anja]

Thank you guys

This thread is by no way a hidden agenda to bash the game, it is a request for information if I am to purchase this game or not (as if it would be to my liking). Though I understand that this forum might very well have been filled by criticisms and loud choirs of complainers as there is a warning that people will be banned if they write such posts. And I would hate if it become such a thread.

It is nice that so many has tried to give answers to my questions and you have helped me a lot and i am inclined to buy the game. I have a few more questions if you guys do not mind.

7) I remember in the Old Mega Traveller there were some things that you needed to be a math wiz (which I am most definatly not) to calculate. Is there much such things in this book?

8) I am a sucker for layout and graphics. For example my boyfriend's pathfinder and MERP games are filled with beautiful drawings, and in paizo's case much in color. whereas in MGT the graphic is quite varies from deplorable to really nice. How is the visual presentation in this version?

9) Genetics and Clones seems interesting, and the possibe Galaxiad thingie with jump-X drives. have they added tL 16+ ship/weapon building blocks (like better sensors and stuff, or is max tech for starship building (and other things) still maxxed at 15?


Thank you again!
Love, Anja

 

[Cryton]

Thank you guys

This thread is by no way a hidden agenda to bash the game, it is a request for information if I am to purchase this game or not (as if it would be to my liking). Though I understand that this forum might very well have been filled by criticisms and loud choirs of complainers as there is a warning that people will be banned if they write such posts. And I would hate if it become such a thread.

It is nice that so many has tried to give answers to my questions and you have helped me a lot and i am inclined to buy the game. I have a few more questions if you guys do not mind.

7) I remember in the Old Mega Traveller there were some things that you needed to be a math wiz (which I am most definatly not) to calculate. Is there much such things in this book?

8) I am a sucker for layout and graphics. For example my boyfriend's pathfinder and MERP games are filled with beautiful drawings, and in paizo's case much in color. whereas in MGT the graphic is quite varies from deplorable to really nice. How is the visual presentation in this version?

9) Genetics and Clones seems interesting, and the possibe Galaxiad thingie with jump-X drives. have they added tL 16+ ship/weapon building blocks (like better sensors and stuff, or is max tech for starship building (and other things) still maxxed at 15?


Thank you again!
Love, Anja

First: Welcome to the board!

So in answer to your questions:

7) It takes some math. Thankfully, the math is not usually difficult. Usually.

8)It is not graphic heavy as the Piazzo books tend to be. The layout is actually surprisingly spartan for graphics, but what ones are there are, in my opinion, pretty good. That is a matter of personal taste. Yours may be different.

9)The TL expansions are awesome! And no, you're not limited in your items creation by TL, and can build most anything up to the TL singularity.

Hope these answers help.

~Cryton

 

[Timerover51]

8) I am a sucker for layout and graphics. For example my boyfriend's pathfinder and MERP games are filled with beautiful drawings, and in paizo's case much in color. whereas in MGT the graphic is quite varies from deplorable to really nice. How is the visual presentation in this version?

The graphics in T5 are not up to the standard in MERP, and I have about all of the MERP material. They are pretty much standard quality graphics, similar to what is used throughout the Traveller material. No Liz Danforth or Angus McBride or Charles Peale equivalent is present.

 

[Anja]

Next question:

10) Is it possible in T5 to be a scientist (well the class exist in all Travellers i think) with rules how to do a scietific study/research: For example: Make a new for of Jump Drive which takes less room or requires less fuel. And how to roll the skills to do such things?

My players like to tinker in-game as we are old Ars magica players.

 

[DickNervous]

Next question:

10) Is it possible in T5 to be a scientist (well the class exist in all Travellers i think) with rules how to do a scietific study/research: For example: Make a new for of Jump Drive which takes less room or requires less fuel. And how to roll the skills to do such things?

My players like to tinker in-game as we are old Ars magica players.

Not only is it possible to be a Scientist (well, a Scholar technically), but you can also be a Craftsman or even a Functionary. The careers in the T5 core rules are:

• Crafstman
• Scholar
• Entertainer
• Citizen
• Scout
• Merchant
• Spacer (aka Navy)
• Soldier
• Agent
• Rogue
• Noble
• Marine
• Functionary

As far as creating items goes there are rules for making weapons, vehicles, ships, guns, and even beasts and playable sophont races!

 

[GypsyComet]

Next question:

10) Is it possible in T5 to be a scientist (well the class exist in all Travellers i think) with rules how to do a scietific study/research: For example: Make a new for of Jump Drive which takes less room or requires less fuel. And how to roll the skills to do such things?

My players like to tinker in-game as we are old Ars magica players.

The problem in this particular example is that jump drive sizes and capabilities are hard-linked to Tech Level. They aren't like magic, where the differences are all basically engineering. Your example in Ars Magica terms is like someone making that CrIg-40 fireball work in CrIg-15.

If you have players that want to do such things, then one of the periods of tech decline (or a homebrew with similar feel) may be what you want to do. The PCs *know* that better toys have existed, but their world no longer has the tools or practice to make them. As mad scientists, re-attaining those higher TLs can happen in much shorter time spans than the game assumes for original discovery.

 

[Anja]

The problem in this particular example is that jump drive sizes and capabilities are hard-linked to Tech Level. They aren't like magic, where the differences are all basically engineering. Your example in Ars Magica terms is like someone making that CrIg-40 fireball work in CrIg-15.

If you have players that want to do such things, then one of the periods of tech decline (or a homebrew with similar feel) may be what you want to do. The PCs *know* that better toys have existed, but their world no longer has the tools or practice to make them. As mad scientists, re-attaining those higher TLs can happen in much shorter time spans than the game assumes for original discovery.

In AM4 you could RAW optimize a spell so that if you were good enough at CR IG and Magic Theory lower the Fireball spell to a lower level but still retain the same +35 damage. Though It was immensly hard. Though if you used it on rituals you would pay less vis.

My player just want to feel as if she is trying to do something that no one else has ever suceeded. It matters not if she does succeed herself. She just wants to do something new, ground breaking and that if she succeed, she will make a name for herself.

I just wanted to know if there were rules for it in T5. I remember that there were some rules for researching in Megatraveller Referee's Companion i think it was.

 

[atpollard]

If you want to simulate original research and custom prototypes, Mongoose Traveller has data on the effects of TL for various things in High Guard and Central Supply Catalog (other rules versions have similar stuff in various places).

A tradeoff of less than the benefits of a full TL might be a reasonable starting point. So 5% lighter, but 10% more expensive might be a reasonable upgrade.
If you want your TL 14 Character to build a TL 16 item (so your ship has the only one), then you have the rules for 'prototypes' and 'early' models to draw from.

[I think that the makers provide similar benefits ... based on limited playing with an on-line Gun Maker to get a feel for T5.]

 

[whulorigan]

9)The TL expansions are awesome! And no, you're not limited in your items creation by TL, and can build most anything up to the TL singularity.

I am actually interested to see someone take a shot at using "Thing-Maker" to build a TARDIS (with a working chameleon-circuit, preferably).

As far as I can see, all of the necessary component technologies are listed somewhere on the TL22-TL33 charts.

 

[WistfulD]

Next question:

10) Is it possible in T5 to be a scientist (well the class exist in all Travellers i think) with rules how to do a scietific study/research: For example: Make a new for of Jump Drive which takes less room or requires less fuel. And how to roll the skills to do such things?

My players like to tinker in-game as we are old Ars magica players.

I think all versions of Traveller have allowed scientists, and jump drive efficiency would certainly be the holy grail of any scientist who really wants to change the world (er, known universe). I don't know any of us who have built Traveller ships that haven't designed one "if only" you could get a ship to jump on half as much fuel. There's an ongoing thread in the CT section on whether the game designers "fudged" their own rules to make Xboats able to have J4 jump drives at 100 tons.

The thing is, jump fuel usage is the clear way that the game rules shape the game universe. 10% (in most versions) of ship volume per parsec per jump shapes how ships are designed, what star systems are accessible and to whom, and what trade routes are viable. Changing that constant throws much of everything everyone knows about the 3I right out the window.

That's not to say that such things can't happen. The Far Far Future campaign idea clearly involves exploring life after that discovery. The thing is, there really shouldn't be a game mechanic for making that discovery. That should either be the scientist character's pipe dream, unacheived motivating force, or acheived campaign-defining moment. Perhaps the scientist does discover this result. Perhaps it makes them famous, perhaps it makes them a target for assassination, perhaps they have to use their newly invented "double-J6" spaceship to hide themselves in a star system that no one else can get to. That should, however, be a story element, not a rules one.

Hope that helps.

BTW, atpollard--I am very excited to see this change in policy on these boards. While I understand the need for a website to stop mob behavior and deal with acute flame activity, I am a strong believer that official sources constricting criticism of their work simply deligitimizes themselves as arbiters of a product's true nature and blinds them to people's true opinion of its value. I wasn't here for the flamewar, but I think the people closest influence over the game's future need to hear how people really think things are going with the game. Thank you.