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Rules Only: Is there a case for a new skill of "Loadmaster"?

R

Redcap

SOC-13
Baron
In Traveller, there are skills for working with passengers, notably 'Steward', but none appear to deal with cargos and/or freight. I believe this, on reflection, to be a serious omission.

In contemporary shipping, be it air freight or sea freight, load balancing, hazmat, access, and prioritising, are all key factors in assessing and actioning where a given ISO container, loose freight, unusual shaped loads, and even bulk liquids, powders, and so on, are stored in a freighters holds.

So, given a lack of combination or cascade skills required for the job, and assessing that JoAT is not up to the very specialised task of managing the role, is there a case for adding this skill to the list?

I say yes, but I'm interested in hearing what you might have to say on the topic :)
 
Redcap said:
In Traveller, there are skills for working with passengers, notably 'Steward', but none appear to deal with cargos and/or freight. I believe this, on reflection, to be a serious omission.

In contemporary shipping, be it air freight or sea freight, load balancing, hazmat, access, and prioritising, are all key factors in assessing and actioning where a given ISO container, loose freight, unusual shaped loads, and even bulk liquids, powders, and so on, are stored in a freighters holds.

So, given a lack of combination or cascade skills required for the job, and assessing that JoAT is not up to the very specialised task of managing the role, is there a case for adding this skill to the list?

I say yes, but I'm interested in hearing what you might have to say on the topic :)
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My views:

short answer: depends on point of view, but no.

slightly less short answer: yes if you are in favour of a "simulation" viewpoint, No if your in favour of a "Game" viewpoint. I take the latter viewpoint and I'm against it as unnecessary to the game.

longer answer: Personally, my view is no, its not required, because I don't see how adding it would enhance Traveller as a game, by adding to the options for interesting role play interactions. To me, adding a skill in would just mean that something that should be simple and routine (loading cargo) becomes a continual source of problems that "get in the way" of the more fun RP experiences ("right, well, we shall go to the palace and investigate that rumour about the Dukes Mistress....just as soon as we have finished repacking the hold because someone rolled snake eyes again on their loadie checks... ")
 
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Redcap said:
In Traveller, there are skills for working with passengers, notably 'Steward', but none appear to deal with cargos and/or freight. I believe this, on reflection, to be a serious omission.

In contemporary shipping, be it air freight or sea freight, load balancing, hazmat, access, and prioritising, are all key factors in assessing and actioning where a given ISO container, loose freight, unusual shaped loads, and even bulk liquids, powders, and so on, are stored in a freighters holds.

So, given a lack of combination or cascade skills required for the job, and assessing that JoAT is not up to the very specialised task of managing the role, is there a case for adding this skill to the list?

I say yes, but I'm interested in hearing what you might have to say on the topic :)
Click to expand...

Xerxeskingofking said:
short answer: depends on point of view.

slightly less short answer: yes if you are in favour of a "simulation" viewpoint, No if your in favour of a "Game" viewpoint.

edit with longer answer to follow.
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I would also say it depends upon the particular game-system you are using. "Loadmaster" or "Cargomaster" would be a skill with a generally fairly limited application in-game. So if you are using a CharGen system that gives lots of specific skills, you might be OK. With a CharGen system that gives fewer and "broader" skills to characters, I would say the skill is far too limited for the granularity of the system, and just subsume its functions under Steward, if necessary.
 
I think adding "loadmaster" experience to the Steward skill makes the latter more interesting.

"Be careful with those boxes. That's my milk. No, don't bury it under the luggage. I need to get at it during the trip. If you stack those boxes together, you'll have more room. Oh, just get off the lift and let me do it."
 
In aviation, it's a subset of Pilot (all pilots are taught to do the calculations)...

I see no reason why the pilot of a spaceship wouldn't be doing it as well. Loadmasters would be Pilot 0...
 
aramis said:
In aviation, it's a subset of Pilot (all pilots are taught to do the calculations)...

I see no reason why the pilot of a spaceship wouldn't be doing it as well. Loadmasters would be Pilot 0...
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Are you talking about the weight and balance calculations? That's part of the job, but not all of it. I agree with you when it comes to small craft.
 
aramis said:
In aviation, it's a subset of Pilot (all pilots are taught to do the calculations)...

I see no reason why the pilot of a spaceship wouldn't be doing it as well. Loadmasters would be Pilot 0...
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realistically, with the level of computing available on a spaceship, it could be built into the computer systems and, assuming the cargo is manifested correctly before loading, it would be a trivial problem for the computer to come to the "correct" loading plan and tell the crew which containers to load, in what order, and where to stack them.

as I said, I'm against it being a separate skill, buts for purely meta reasons (it only sticks a failable skill roll in the way of the players with no real pay off for a success)
 
First time I saw a reference to it was LBB8 as a Cargo Handling skill for robots.

Which may be a good default, cargobots operated remotely by a 'robot server' funded offstage by the shippers or starport taxes/tariffs/subsidies could be a ridiculously cheap thing that doesn't merit a position, statesroom space/life support that takes away potential revenue, etc. etc.

Where it might be of use is in frontier situations away from robot stevedore service, such as D/E starports, smuggling and pirate operations, and scout/military missions.
 
Most versions of Traveller appear to have physics of spacecraft/ship flightthat are not weight dependent, but rather are displacement based. Weight and balance become less important, then.

Cargo containers may need some skill to timely move them, but that's why crews hire starport crews in busy, time critical situations.

I think it would be more a matter of using a gravveh or robot skill to move the containers faster.
 
Garyius2003 said:
Most versions of Traveller appear to have physics of spacecraft/ship flightthat are not weight dependent, but rather are displacement based. Weight and balance become less important, then.
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While there are valid arguments that someone like a Loadmaster exists, as a gameplay mechanic, they're just not interesting. Just like we don't have "Accountant" skill. Arguably, we shouldn't have "Broker" skill, at least on PCs, as it's a trade mechanic.

It's just not very adventure oriented or interesting.

"Good thing we have Frank the Loadmaster here to load the troops in to the Cutter properly"

"Frank, roll 6+ to make sure you put the heavy guy on the far left corner to counter balance the avionics..."

Whee...
 
whartung said:
While there are valid arguments that someone like a Loadmaster exists, as a gameplay mechanic, they're just not interesting. Just like we don't have "Accountant" skill. Arguably, we shouldn't have "Broker" skill, at least on PCs, as it's a trade mechanic.

It's just not very adventure oriented or interesting.

"Good thing we have Frank the Loadmaster here to load the troops in to the Cutter properly"

"Frank, roll 6+ to make sure you put the heavy guy on the far left corner to counter balance the avionics..."

Whee...
Click to expand...

Conversely, there is such a thing as battle loading, so the critical stuff gets unloaded first and critical items are spread around properly.

"Heavy unit off the C Cruiser on the double!"

"Sorry Major, no can do, we have to get the requisition form containers out to get at the back of the hold, and even if we do, the fusion packs were all on the cruiser that went down".

"Dammit Frank the loadmaster did have to go and die on us! We really need his expertise!"
 
whartung said:
While there are valid arguments that someone like a Loadmaster exists, as a gameplay mechanic, they're just not interesting. Just like we don't have "Accountant" skill. Arguably, we shouldn't have "Broker" skill, at least on PCs, as it's a trade mechanic.

It's just not very adventure oriented or interesting.

"Good thing we have Frank the Loadmaster here to load the troops in to the Cutter properly"

"Frank, roll 6+ to make sure you put the heavy guy on the far left corner to counter balance the avionics..."

Whee...
Click to expand...
Accounting falls into Administration.... Bureaucrats generally include accounting; Admin is the skill that it used for success as a bureaucrat. Therefore, Admin is the skill for most accounting tasks. Hell, Vacc Suit is the original "Make a saving throw on" skill.

The "It's a boring field" excuse holds no weight - mechanically, Admin is just so. So are most science skills.
The "There's no benefit from success, only penalties for failure" excuse also holds no weight - Navigation is already such (excepting in TNE). So is Engineering in CT. And also, Admin. They're used for avoiding problems in the CT and later mechanics, seldom for actually accomplishing some PC goals.
 
OK, interesting range of views; I also liked the linked thread on deckhands: Very useful; thanks to everyone for their comments...

My current take on Loadmasters, having read all of the above, is now that it should be viewed as a semi-specialised role that is double-hatted to other ship-board appointments. I'm thinking it should therefore be tied to both the Steward (Steward / Chief Loadmaster) and any ships gunners on board (Gunners / Loadmasters Mate). (gunners have little to do in port, and stewards would seem to be a natural fit for the task, as mentioned in comments above).

With this all in mind, I'm of the opinion that Loadmaster as a skill would be a derived skill level, not a background generated one, and would be calculated as follows (this for CT, MT, & MgT - I have no experience in the other forms of the game):
(Pilot+Engineering+Steward+JoAT)/4, with any missing skills counting as -1.

Example:
Fred is a very good Steward (he has to be, he's the only one on board the Far Trader "Ryan's Reward").

He has Steward +3, Eng +0, and JoAT +1. His derived Loadmaster skill would therefore be four (Steward + JoAT, with Eng not counting at level zero), minus 1 due to his lack of pilot skill, for a value of 3.

Divided by 4, these result in a skill of 0.75, which is rounded down to zero. His derived Loadmaster skill is therefore zero. He's got a rough idea of how to do it, but anything complex, and he's out of his depth; he'd rather leave deciding where to position shipping containers to the expert systems on the ship, and just check the things have intact anti-tamper clips and seals, and actually match the bills of lading as they arrive on the loader belt.

Regards the comments on displacement, I follow the thinking, but it's not how I view it - any airworthy craft needs to have an overall balance fore and aft, and port and starboard, to maintain it's centre of gravity, even for gravitic thrust systems that don't generally need aerofoils to generate lift. If the CoG is not in balance, that puts extra strain on ship lift and trim systems whilst in a gravity well (such as a planet), and that could wind up being a tad dodgy, to say the least.

Also, if you plan on having something hokey about a cargo, isn't it handy to have at least one PC - preferably more than one, in fact - nosing around cargo as a matter of shipboard duty, to suddenly think "something here doesn't feel right, better get some help", or similar?

Thoughts on the above?
 
I would have thought of load arrangement as something you'd run through the computer. Once you know what all's supposed to be coming aboard, it should not be terribly difficult for a computer to decide how to arrange a load that is balanced and makes most efficient use of space.

But, I don't know, I don't load professionally. Having been a bureaucrat, I'm familiar enough with the profession to find ways to turn the skill to my advantage in an adventure, where most people write it off as uninteresting. Maybe loading has that aspect to it.
 
Thoughts on the above?
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in addition to cargo issues itself, docks can be rough semi-industrialized lower-class districts. might be handy to have someone who is familiar with such environments.

character
vacc suit / 0G 2*
tech skill 1
cargo equipment 2*, ground vehicle 2*
streetwise 2
combatives 2
urban survival 1

whee!
 
Another aspect of cargo handling beyond load balancing and combat loading would be hazmat safety, definitely not something in the other skills' repertoire.
 
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