It's tough to be a Bavarian

[rfmcdpei]

Before German reunification, the state of Bavaria was an interstellar power of note. Sure, it was weak on the ground what with a very small Terran homeland compared to Britain, never mind France, but Bavaria was at the centre of a vast interstellar community of more than 300M people on eight worlds, painfully and expensively built up over a century and a half. Bavaria was the near-equal of the other two ESA powers.

German reunification ruined all this. Through what seems to be a very close decision in Terran Bavaria and an utter failure to take opinion in the colonies into consideration at all, the future German state of Bavaria lost not only isolated Heidelsheimat but hugely populous Garten. Things only became worse with the extended Kafer War, which saw the obliteration of the prestigious colony of Hochbaden and the devastation of Beta Canum, along with the independence of Adlerhorst and--this had to have hurt--the Neubayern system. (I also have to wonder how Terran Bavarians felt about Heidelsheimat's self-definition as an independent Bavarian state.) Not only did Germany take over Bavaria's interstellar empire, it hasn't survived even mostly intact.

The economic consequences of this has to have hurt the Bavarians severely. For decades, Terran Bavaria was the metropole that connected Tirane and Heidelsheimat to trailing and the French Arm to spinward, that produced the businesses that tapped the resources, human and otherwise, of all of those colonies now lost, damaged, or destroyed. The real-world difficulty of the division of Yugoslavia's economic assets among the member states--who takes what share of the foreign exchange reserves and the gold bullion? what happens to state firms? what citizenship policies do we adopt?--hints at some of the economic damage that Bavaria must have taken. Freihafen and Neubayern would be big enough to ride out the disruption to their links with Germany easiy, but Terran Bavaria? Hmm. In post-independence negotiations, would Germany have been interested in pushing hard against these new countries on behalf of only one of its five states, no matter how badly this state was doing?

So, to sum up: In the nearly thirty years since German reunification, Bavaria has been humiliated by its loss of stature internationally and within Germany and hit hard economically by the collapse of its empire and the rediversion of its ex-colonies trade to other trading partners, all because of a political decision that too many Bavarians had to be persuaded to like. If I was a Bavarian on Earth, I'd be unhappy with my national government.

Thoughts?

 

[rust]

Ah, well, I am a Bavarian on Earth, and I am unhappy with my government ...

Apart from this, whoever wrote the setting took a few strange turns.
Names like "Heidelsheimat" and "Hochbaden" are definitely not Bavarian,
and "Adlerhorst", "Freihafen" and "Garten" would at least be very
unusual.

Having lost "Heidelsheimat" and "Hochbaden" would indeed be good news, as
both names prove that these colonies were settled by people from Baden-
Württemberg - well gone, then. :devil:

 

[rfmcdpei]

Having lost "Heidelsheimat" and "Hochbaden" would indeed be good news, as both names prove that these colonies were settled by people from Baden-Württemberg - well gone, then. :devil:

I think you took Baden-Württemburg over ...

::ducks::

So, the names are across the board problematic?

 

[rust]

So, the names are across the board problematic?

While the other names are only somewhat "Un-Bavarian", the name "Heidels-
heimat" is rather silly.

I could imagine that someone from Baden-Württemberg might come up with
a name like that, but I am almost sure that his fellow citizens would politely
ignore that proposal for their colony's name.

We took over Baden-Württemberg ... ?

Well, as mentioned before, I am quite unhappy with my government, but its
members are not that crazy (I hope). o:

 

[rfmcdpei]

While the other names are only somewhat "Un-Bavarian", the name "Heidels-heimat" is rather silly.

It translates as, what, the "homeland of Heidel"?

We took over Baden-Württemberg ... ?

Well, as mentioned before, I am quite unhappy with my government, but its
members are not that crazy (I hope). o:

On the plus side, Swabia was reunified! ;-)

 

[rust]

I think that "Heidelsheimat" was formed as a combination of "Heidelberg", a
rather famous town, and "Heimat" (more "homeland" or "mother country"
than "home"). Heidelberg took its name from the Königstuhl mountain, a
mountain ("Berg") in the heath ("Heide").
"Heidelsheimat" would either be the homeland of someone named Heidel (no,
not a German name, although the Blueberry is called "Heidelbeere" in German,
because it grows on the heath) or the "Mother Country of the Heath". o:

Augsburg, where I live, is the capital of Bavarian Suebia (really, no joke !).
Although we Bavarian Suebians do not like the "real Bavarians" that much
("Bavarians, Barbarians", you know ...), we would doubtless resist any
attempt to reunite us with the "other Suebians" from Baden-Württemberg.
In fact, in the southern part of our region, the Allgäu, the word "Schwabe"
(Suebian) means those natives of Baden-Württemberg, and is commonly
used as an insult.

Yep, life can be complicated in Old Europe ...

 

[epicenter00]

I've always been of the opinion that the rampant independence movements that strike "Germany's" colonies after unification are an echo of the failure of German colonialism in the real-world rather than anything really well thought-through by 2300's writers.

---

As a Bavarian, rust, I'm actually more curious to ask if you found the idea of Bavaria going independent after World War 3 in the 2300 history to be "realistic" or if it sounded a bit silly to you - I'm always curious how people in other nations find the portioning of their nations in 2300.

For instance, as an American, I find the idea of Texas becoming an independent nation in 2300 to be a bit silly, like the 2300 writers had brainfart after reading one too many romantic histories of Texas and after a few Harry Turtledove novels. Texas goes independent while Quebec happily stays a part of Canada? As an American it seems much more likely that Alaska would go independent or become a part of Canada than Texas becoming an independent nation, but this doesn't happen.

---

The foreign language names in 2300 have always been a bit suspect, to be honest. I've spoken with a few native speakers of various languages (including German, Mandarin, and French) and they all agree that the names of worlds in 2300 are often very awkward. When they lift names from real-world places or items it's not so bad, but when they try and give them original names, they often come out very strangely -- rust isn't the only one to have commented on that.

For instance, Garten (Garden in German) shows the Anglocentric thinking in naming that 2300's creators had. We're conditioned by sci-fi of writers like Niven that "Garden" is a somewhat unusual name for a colony, but it's okay. However, nobody ever took into account the kinds of cultural biases that make people name things a certain way over others - a German would never name a colony Garten. Another example is even in the Anglophone world, naming conventions and what's "okay" name things is different. For instance, the British see nothing wrong with naming naval vessel "Battleaxe" or a tank "Scimitar" -- they sound a bit odd to American ears. Similarly, some Chinese I know tell me that the naming of Chinese-dominated systems is very suspect -- ie; no Chinese person would have ever named them that and it was obviously someone who wasn't Chinese and didn't really know Chinese who was lifting the names out of Chinese-to-English dictionary.

---

Ah, well, I am a Bavarian on Earth, and I am unhappy with my government ...

You're Bavarian? Let's get mbrinkhues in here and set up a cage. You two could have a rage in cage and the rest of us could bet on the outcome.

 

[mbrinkhues]

As a Bavarian, rust, I'm actually more curious to ask if you found the idea of Bavaria going independent after World War 3 in the 2300 history to be "realistic" or if it sounded a bit silly to you - I'm always curious how people in other nations find the portioning of their nations in 2300.

For instance, as an American, I find the idea of Texas becoming an independent nation in 2300 to be a bit silly, like the 2300 writers had brainfart after reading one too many romantic histories of Texas and after a few Harry Turtledove novels. Texas goes independent while Quebec happily stays a part of Canada? As an American it seems much more likely that Alaska would go independent or become a part of Canada than Texas becoming an independent nation, but this doesn't happen.

---

The foreign language names in 2300 have always been a bit suspect, to be honest. I've spoken with a few native speakers of various languages (including German, Mandarin, and French) and they all agree that the names of worlds in 2300 are often very awkward. When they lift names from real-world places or items it's not so bad, but when they try and give them original names, they often come out very strangely -- rust isn't the only one to have commented on that.

For instance, Garten (Garden in German) shows the Anglocentric thinking in naming that 2300's creators had. We're conditioned by sci-fi of writers like Niven that "Garden" is a somewhat unusual name for a colony, but it's okay. However, nobody ever took into account the kinds of cultural biases that make people name things a certain way over others - a German would never name a colony Garten. Another example is even in the Anglophone world, naming conventions and what's "okay" name things is different. For instance, the British see nothing wrong with naming naval vessel "Battleaxe" or a tank "Scimitar" -- they sound a bit odd to American ears. Similarly, some Chinese I know tell me that the naming of Chinese-dominated systems is very suspect -- ie; no Chinese person would have ever named them that and it was obviously someone who wasn't Chinese and didn't really know Chinese who was lifting the names out of Chinese-to-English dictionary.

---



You're Bavarian? Let's get mbrinkhues in here and set up a cage. You two could have a rage in cage and the rest of us could bet on the outcome.

No chance! I can easily drink him under the tabel! Twice! Pils beats Weizen anytime

We could meet at a neutral ground and try out. FeenCon/Bonn sounds about right

 

[rust]

As a Bavarian, rust, I'm actually more curious to ask if you found the idea of Bavaria going independent after World War 3 in the 2300 history to be "realistic" or if it sounded a bit silly to you ...

This is a difficult question.

The history of Bavaria as a state goes back to at least 550 AD, and the Bava-
rians have always had a very independent streak.They even refused to sign
the Grundgesetz, Germany's new constitution, after the Second World War,
and there is a (rather small and somewhat semi-serious) political party which
wants to re-introduce the monarchy and declare independence. And Bavaria
would be big enough and economically strong enough to go it alone.

On the other hand, while Bavarians can be quite rude, they are almost com-
pletely non-militant and non-militaristic. It is very difficult to prove the exis-
tence of a Bavarian army for most of the 1,500 years of Bavarian history, as
it almost never became active in any meaningful way. The Bavarians really
are no state-builders, I think. They are comfortable with what they have.

So, in the end, I believe they would prefer to remain semi-independent within
the larger framework of a German (or, preferably, even European) state, and
history would have to take some very unusual turns to drive them towards
real independence.

Ah, a drinking contest ... no, sorry, not really. Augsburg's beer is terrible, so
I have no training except with Apfelschorle, which would not prepare me to
face a Pils.

 

[rfmcdpei]

I think that "Heidelsheimat" was formed as a combination of "Heidelberg", a rather famous town, and "Heimat" (more "homeland" or "mother country"
than "home"). Heidelberg took its name from the Königstuhl mountain, a mountain ("Berg") in the heath ("Heide"). "Heidelsheimat" would either be the homeland of someone named Heidel (no,
not a German name, although the Blueberry is called "Heidelbeere" in German,
because it grows on the heath) or the "Mother Country of the Heath". o:

How does Heidel sound?

Augsburg, where I live, is the capital of Bavarian Suebia (really, no joke !). Although we Bavarian Suebians do not like the "real Bavarians" that much ("Bavarians, Barbarians", you know ...), we would doubtless resist any attempt to reunite us with the "other Suebians" from Baden-Württemberg. In fact, in the southern part of our region, the Allgäu, the word "Schwabe" (Suebian) means those natives of Baden-Württemberg, and is commonly used as an insult.

Yep, life can be complicated in Old Europe ...

I come from Prince Edward Island, an island province of Canada that's two hours' wide as the car drives and is home to 140 thousand people. Believe me, the amount of regional, class, and religious distinctions we can fit into that province is remarkable.

 

[rfmcdpei]

So, in the end, I believe they would prefer to remain semi-independent within the larger framework of a German (or, preferably, even European) state, and history would have to take some very unusual turns to drive them towards real independence.

Whenever I thought of Bavaria and the German states in 2300AD, I always thought of Austria after the Second World War. Before the war, pan-Germanism and political German identity was quite strong, but after the war's immense costs pan-Germanism suddenly became unpopular and Austrians set about to cultivating their own local identities. Westphalia seems a bit of a non-entity to me, but the other four German states all have long traditions.

It seemed to me conceivable, especially under French guidance, that the first post-Twilight generation in the German states saw the attempt at German reunification as an utter catastrophe and renounced the idea of a German political identity altogether. Two and a half centuries later, things changed.

As to the point raised above re: the unimaginativeness of the decline of the Bavarian/German interstellar empire, I disagree. The sudden transformation of this interstellar community from one founded on a Bavarian identity to one founded on a German identity, apparently after minimal consultations with the colonies, is the sort of thing that would shake a community up. By way of comparison, if after some debate nationally the Canadian federal government announced that the date was set for Canada's annexation into the United States, I can imagine any number of separatist movements take off in different provinces. The idea might be something that these provinces could be persuaded to act, but such unilateral movements would be taken as a serious offense. So, Freihafen became an independent state off the bat and Heidelsheimat declared itself a Bavarian colony and eventually independent.

The functionality of the transformed state would also change opinions in the colonies. Germany did about as good a job in the Kafer War as it could be expected to, but that probably wasn't good enough for colonists who were already wary about the idea of becoming politically Germans. Adlerhorst's Germans unified with their French counterparts; Niebelungen separated after the Kafer War fiasco.

 

[rust]

How does Heidel sound?

Not good either, unfortunately. If I had to choose, I would take either
"Neuheimat" ("New Home") or "Heidewelt" ("Heath World"). These na-
mes are neither very Bavarian nor very innovative, but they would be
possible, I think.
"Heidel" could be an unusual nickname for a girl with the very old-fa-
shioned name "Heidelinde" (who would normally be called "Heidi"), but
I really cannot imagine it as a name for a planet.

 

[rust]

I do not know 2300 AD well enough to have much of an opinion on the histo-
ry described in the setting's background. Things could have developed that
way, although I would not see this development as the most probable one.

On the other hand, 300 years are a very long time - just think of all the un-
expected changes since the time when Marlborough and Eugen led their ar-
mies through my home region. If someone had asked a German witness of the
Battle of Blenheim about his opinion on the Germany of 2000, you would now
find very few similarities between the answer and today's situation.

So, I have no problem at all with the "future history" of Bavaria and the re-
mainder of Germany.

 

[rfmcdpei]

"Heidel" could be an unusual nickname for a girl with the very old-fashioned name "Heidelinde" (who would normally be called "Heidi"),

The highest mountain on Rho Eridani's garden world is fourteen and a half kilometres high ...

but I really cannot imagine it as a name for a planet.

Eep.

 

[mbrinkhues]

The main problems with the "Germany flying apart" concept of 2300AD I have is:

+ It does not go far enough

If one uses "regional dislikes" and "nothing good came from the union" than two of the other german states (Westfalia, Hannover) would not exist. Westfalia is actually (from the description) modern day Northrhine-Westfalia(NRW) and Hannover is Nether-Saxony, both with some parts added. NRW is a Frankenstein-State with the Industrial Ruhr Valley being a parasite grafted on rural Westfalia(1) post 1945 and there is a lot of conflict over money and resources even today. Same with Nether-Saxonie, except for the industrial region around Celle-Hangover(2a)-Braunschweig-VW Town(2b) there is a lot "rural" territory

+ It makes no economic sense

The regions of germany can't stand on their own and have been unabel to do so for at least a century. Production of critical parts is scattered all over the republic as are resources. I.e. Bavaria can't produce any energy without NRW (no coalmines in Bavaria, no Uranium mines either) while the NRW nuclear plants need fuel-rods from Hanau (Made from Uranium mined in East-German Wismut).

Same for food. Germany MIGHT be abel to feed it's population but only if it stays "one nation". Depending on the amount of bombing done to the traffic links (rail, river, channel) the distribution might even work. Again, only IF they work as a group(3)

+ It's mostly against history

While one can see a more "autonomus" group of states, the "German Bund" concept did work for quite some time (and through a war or two) only breaking down because the two big players (Austria, Prussia) went to war. There are no "two big players" in post WWIII.

+ Enemy at the gates

In the T2K timeline Italy went rogue and attacked Germany. And that means Bavaria after going through parts of Austria. While that is not likely at all(4) this means that a serious threat sit's relatively close to Munic. Would you cut of your supply of heavy weapons in that situation? Or your supply of people, food and (maybe) fuel(6)?

(1) Or the other way round - I am from Westfalia

(2a, 2b) Hannover and Wolfsburg

(3) Actually the "early war date" will help since east germany operated steam powered railroad engines a lot longer than west germany did

(4) That border region of Austria-Italy around the Lake Garda is known for it's pro-Austrian feelings

(5) Rheinmetal sits in Düsseldorf

(6) IIRC the GDR did run the "Leuna-Process" of Coal-Fuel until real-world re-unification. Might be interesting to see if the plants near Bitterfeld survived WWIII. Same for the (small) Oil-Pumping in Nether-Saxony

 

[mbrinkhues]

Not good either, unfortunately. If I had to choose, I would take either
"Neuheimat" ("New Home") or "Heidewelt" ("Heath World"). These na-
mes are neither very Bavarian nor very innovative, but they would be
possible, I think.
"Heidel" could be an unusual nickname for a girl with the very old-fa-
shioned name "Heidelinde" (who would normally be called "Heidi"), but
I really cannot imagine it as a name for a planet.

If they are "real Bavarians" wouldn't they name at least one of the Kolonies for the Kini? (Ludwig II of Bavaria) After all he is the archetypical Bavarian Monarch and still loved IRL(1). Or Wagner and the german Mythology. "Dunkelheim" hints a bit at this. Siegfried, Karl the Great and Dietrich von Bern wait to be plundered.

Or you can name the world after great german philosopher/bards of the 20th century. Planet "OTTO" in the "Waalkes" System sounds good. Naming a moon "Didi" also has a good sound.

(Edit for a Philosophers correct name)

(1) And Herren-Chiemsee as well as Neuschwanstein are nice to visit/look at. I like the former (despite being incomplete) more than the latter

 

[rust]

As for the history:
Bavaria can and does produce enough energy (mainly water, thanks to the
rivers coming down from the Alps, but also some nuclear) to survive -
although perhaps not enough for any heavy industry.
Otherwise, I agree completely.

As for the names:
Wagner had to flee to Prussian Bayreuth because the Bavarians did not like
him, and they still do not like his music very much - he would not be a good
choice for naming Bavarian colonies...o:

Traveller had some Bavarian colonies in the Islands Clusters Campaign in Ad-
venture 5 (Trillion Credit Squadron) of CT, and the names of these planets
are somewhat more believable: Neubayern (a must !), Berlichingen D), Zu-
flucht, Herzenslust (well, okay ...).
Neufranken, Neupfalz and Neuschwaben would be logical additions, I think.

Planet Otto in the Waalkes System - if this should ever turn up in any game
or supplement, I will know whom to blame for it !:devil:

 

[BMonnery]

Something to remember is that 2300AD Bayern was a much larger political entity than Freistat Bayern, it enbraced Baden, Hamburg and a few other places.

Another is that the there was a lack of consistancy between the authors in the Colonial Atlas. Some followed the rules in the booklet, some followed the table (which was broken by the rules presented). The author of the Beowulf article simply used the 100 year entry from the table, the author of Nibelungen used the same entry and multiplied by 4% for every extra year.

The upshot is, the populations are mutually incompatible. Not a problem in an RPG, but a problem when power politics become involved. To get the populations mentioned in the CA, Bavaria needed more than 4 times the lift tonnage of France.

IMC I assumed the Nibelungen population simply had an extra zero added to the end, fiting with the 2nd edition description of Nibelungen as a small agricultural colony, dependent on textile exports. Everything else can then be explained away.