Jump 1 vs Jump 2 ships in the CT Imperium

[R_Chance]

As an aside, the reason for the per jump cost for freight is the time IMO. A jump is always a week, no matter the distance travelled. Your'e being paid to babysit the freight for the requisite time and deliver it intact to it's destination. Doesn't really matter if it travels 1 parsec in 1 week in a jump 1 free trader to it's destination or 3 parsecs in one week in a jump 3 freighter to it's destination. Same amount of time.

I think the comparison of jump 1 and 2 ships is more difficult than just taking two ships and dropping them into the same environment. The two different ships are naturally going to gravitate to areas and runs that maximize their advantages... in short they are probably not going to be "hanging out" in the same neighborhoods for easy comparison. Different astrography will make one ship or the other "better" in a given area.

 

[far-trader]

Thanks for posting that table Dan. I do have to wonder however, why GDW discontinued its use so quickly. Ah well, roads not taken I suppose.

There were a few odd things "lost" from some of the early printings, and even later ones. Some due to simple errors I suspect, others due to changes in ideas.

The limit to J4 for trade is still shown in the background materials for some time after the table was dropped. I think it's not until MT that we get an official J6 trader, and even then it's a special case, very hush-hush, nobody even suspects we have J6 capability type of thing. And it's really for small special cargo and persons.

But yeah, kinda hard to figure. Even harder when some of the material is essentially lost to most of the players.

 

[Anthony]

As an aside, the reason for the per jump cost for freight is the time IMO. A jump is always a week, no matter the distance travelled. Your'e being paid to babysit the freight for the requisite time and deliver it intact to it's destination.

No, you're being paid for the use of your cargo space. A merchant generally doesn't care what's in the cargo space; he just cares that he can't sell it to anyone else. Space on a J2 ship is more precious, and thus should be rented out for more.

 

[R_Chance]

No, you're being paid for the use of your cargo space. A merchant generally doesn't care what's in the cargo space; he just cares that he can't sell it to anyone else. Space on a J2 ship is more precious, and thus should be rented out for more.

It's about the use of your cargo space for a given time. Most of a ships expences are time dependent (crew salaries, mortgage, maintenance, power plant fuel, berthing fees, etc.). Only jump fuel is distance dependent. It's the same space (a displacement ton) per week, regardless if you travel 1 or 2 parsecs. Your'e crew will have to babysit the cargo for the same length of time. The personell workload is the same. It doesn't take more, or less, time to load or unload. If the expences are time dependent, why shouldn't the recompense be? Hence, per jump freight costs. IMO of course.

 

[atpollard]

I think the comparison of jump 1 and 2 ships is more difficult than just taking two ships and dropping them into the same environment. The two different ships are naturally going to gravitate to areas and runs that maximize their advantages... in short they are probably not going to be "hanging out" in the same neighborhoods for easy comparison. Different astrography will make one ship or the other "better" in a given area.

You are correct that most of the expenses are per month rather than per parsec, but the operating expenses of a J2 ship are MUCH higher than the operating expenses of a J1 ship. The result is that at 1000 cr per dTon of cargo per Jump, a jump 2 ship looses money on each jump.

It would be like comparing a freight train to an airplane and charging the same freight rate per hour. The slower train has lower operating expenses and will make more money. The faster aircraft has higher operating expenses and will loose money.

 

[daryen]

Cite please? I don't mean it in a sarcastic manner, but as a means of correcting myself on the grounds I missed something

Sure.

The most important thing is to remember that the cargo and passengers determination are all linked. People keep trying to separate it because the actual system is ridiculous and makes no sense. However, that is not what is being said.

First, as you point out, the cargo portion says, "The referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on jump number)." The plain reading of this is "figure out which world the ship will go to next". Again, the rational mind doesn't want to accept this, but it is what it says.

Second, everyone agrees that passengers are priced per-jump. This is clear by the description given in the third paragraph of the "Passengers" section. But, why ignore the first paragraph of that section? It is the key.

So, looking at the first paragraph, it says, "[a]fter a starship has accepted cargo for a specific destiantion, passengers will present themselves for transport to that destination." This is clearly showing that you are getting passengers for the same destination as the cargo. A starship always gets passengers and cargo for the same destination.

The trade system is not two discrete systems, one for cargo and one for passengers. It is a unified whole that takes cargo and passengers together. Putting it all together, a starship must choose its next destination from the list of worlds it may reach in the next jump. It determines the cargo and passengers available for that world and then transports them there. The Traveller trade system only works one jump at a time.

(Important note: This is for the normal trade given in "Starship Economics". Speculative Trade, given in "Trade and Commerce" is different because the lot availability is determined by source world rather than destination world.)

[EDIT]
One more thing. Be sure to read "The Ad Astra" chapter from Adventure 13 "Signal GK". It covers the operation and economics of a Type M subsidized Liner. From its "Revenue Breakdown" section, it clearly states that its revenues and expenses are all based on individual, isolated trips (i.e. each jump). And again, cargo and passengers are always for the next jump. Future jumps and distance of the next jump are both clearly ignored and not considered factors.

This is also true of the exact same section of the "The March Harrier" chapter in The Traveller Adventure. Again, cargo and passengers are always for the next jump.

 

[daryen]

Just for clarification:

I personally think that per-jump pricing, for cargo and passengers, is stupid. It makes no sense, is not economically viable, and is not even possible without overbearing, omnipresent centralized control by every political entity in Charted Space. It is completely irrational, even for a game system.

However, that is exactly what the rules say. Pricing for passengers and cargo is done by jump, not by parsec. As I have pointed out, the rules only look one jump into the future. All of the prices are per jump.

Again, the Traveller rules are designed to be played like the game: week to week; jump to jump. Attempting to get any greater insight to the Traveller universe based on the trade system is futile and doomed to failure. It is what it is; do not try to make it more than it is.

 

[pendragonman]

Sure.

The most important thing is to remember that the cargo and passengers determination are all linked. People keep trying to separate it because the actual system is ridiculous and makes no sense. However, that is not what is being said.

First, as you point out, the cargo portion says, "The referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on jump number)." The plain reading of this is "figure out which world the ship will go to next". Again, the rational mind doesn't want to accept this, but it is what it says.

Second, everyone agrees that passengers are priced per-jump. This is clear by the description given in the third paragraph of the "Passengers" section. But, why ignore the first paragraph of that section? It is the key.

So, looking at the first paragraph, it says, "[a]fter a starship has accepted cargo for a specific destiantion, passengers will present themselves for transport to that destination." This is clearly showing that you are getting passengers for the same destination as the cargo. A starship always gets passengers and cargo for the same destination.

I disagree. Mainly due to the following:

Jump one freighter Beowulf gets a full load of cargo going from Regina to Efate. The Steward of Beowulf Posts the following:

"Starship Beowulf is departing Regina Starport Tuesday for Efate, via Hefry, Forboldn, Knorbes, Whanga, and Uakye. ALL ABOARD!"

This implies that they are NOT just taking passengers for Efate (the cargo destination) but for all stops in between. Embarking and disembarking passengers for the entire trip. Hence, your assertion that the passengers and cargo's destination is permanently linked is clearly incorrect.

When I use said tables, unless the ship is literally only hauling cargo one jump, I determine passengers separately of the cargo due to the stated way points indicated by the ship's flight plan.

Is it your position that passengers may not be picked up at a port that the freighter does not pick up any cargo? Surely not. So the passenger generation table clearly must be independent of the cargo generation table.

That is not to say that the way points may not have cargo that could go on to the ship's ultimate destination, just that the ship has no need to even generate it as it has no room for it. However, there is the possibility that there were no passengers who could pay 60 grand for a trip to Efate, but several who wanted to go from Regina to Hefry (business folks, let's say) and from Hefry to Forboldn etc. Since the ship has to fuel there anyway, why not transship passengers?

 

[robject]

I disagree. Mainly due to the following:

Jump one freighter Beowulf gets a full load of cargo going from Regina to Efate. The Steward of Beowulf Posts the following:

"Starship Beowulf is departing Regina Starport Tuesday for Efate, via Hefry, Forboldn, Knorbes, Whanga, and Uakye. ALL ABOARD!"

This implies that they are NOT just taking passengers for Efate (the cargo destination) but for all stops in between. Embarking and disembarking passengers for the entire trip. Hence, your assertion that the passengers and cargo's destination is permanently linked is clearly incorrect.

When I use said tables, unless the ship is literally only hauling cargo one jump, I determine passengers separately of the cargo due to the stated way points indicated by the ship's flight plan.

Your assumptions are in accord with the rules. But, there's also nothing in your assumptions that goes against what Daryen's saying, either: the order of operations is essentially:

(1) file your flight plan
(2) for each world on your flight plan:
(2a) pick up cargo to that destination
(2b) pick up passengers to that destination

Happily, the order in which you execute them is not strictly important from an economics standpoint. It could be important from an adventure standpoint, but maybe that's all. And while there's nothing necessarily stopping you from not taking on cargo, it's always in your best interests to do so... unless the referee loads your ship with hijackers, Zhodani commandoes in wooden horses, or Chamax hunters, that is.

The basic rules only cover the case where your 'flight plan' is the next immediate destination, that's all. Adventure 3 gives us one instance of a multi-destination flight plan, however, so you've done no foul.

But also please understand that you're essentially in agreement with Daryen's explanation (since he's just quoting the rules, and your method essentially follows the rules).

 

[atpollard]

Differences in starship jump drive capacity have no specific effect on passage prices. A jump-3 starship charges
the same passage price as a jump-1 starship. The difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the jump-1 ship would take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destinations, and requiring three separate tickets) to reach it. Higher jump numbers also may make otherwise inaccessible destinations within reach. But for two ships of differing jump numbers going to the same destination in one jump, each would charge the same cargo or passage price.

The underlined text in this quote from The Traveller Book would seem to indicate that “taking on a passenger destined for a location multiple jumps away (with stopovers) who has purchased multiple tickets for each leg of the journey” is something which the rules envision as a possibility.

 

[far-trader]

I disagree. Mainly due to the following:

Jump one freighter Beowulf gets a full load of cargo going from Regina to Efate.

I'd like to know what half-wit would decide to ship freight from Regina to Efate on a J1 free-trader. Taking at least 6 weeks, more like 12, and costing Cr6,000 per ton? Why not ship it twice as fast and at half the cost on a J2 far-trader? Or three times quicker and a third the cost on the subsidized liner service?

Presuming of course in the first place that Regina has anything valuable enough to Efate to bother shipping it across the subsector.

Same goes for passengers.

And before anyone says well it's because the free-trader is leaving when they want it to go out, I'll ask you to note how long they could wait for a J2 far-trader or the J3 subbie and still get there quicker.

Sorry, but the only freight and pax a free-trader is going to see is what's going to the next port of call. And maybe, rarely, the one after that.

 

[robject]

I'd like to know what half-wit would decide to ship freight from Regina to Efate on a J1 free-trader. Taking at least 6 weeks, more like 12, and costing Cr6,000 per ton? Why not ship it twice as fast and at half the cost on a J2 far-trader? Or three times quicker and a third the cost on the subsidized liner service?

[...]

Same goes for passengers.

And before anyone says well it's because the free-trader is leaving when they want it to go out, I'll ask you to note how long they could wait for a J2 far-trader or the J3 subbie and still get there quicker.

Mail contract?

 

[Anthony]

I'd like to know what half-wit would decide to ship freight from Regina to Efate on a J1 free-trader. Taking at least 6 weeks, more like 12, and costing Cr6,000 per ton? Why not ship it twice as fast and at half the cost on a J2 far-trader?

Because, due to the inability of J2+ ships to charge >Cr1,000 per ton, no space is available on J2 or greater ships. If higher jump ships cannot charge more, the logical response is to simply not sell cargo space on J2 or greater ships -- J2 ships will be private use only, unless of course you pay an appropriate bribe to the person who reserved the space (say, about Cr 1,000 per ton for a J2 ship, Cr 2,000 per ton for a J3 ship, etc).

 

[pendragonman]

I'd like to know what half-wit would decide to ship freight from Regina to Efate on a J1 free-trader. Taking at least 6 weeks, more like 12, and costing Cr6,000 per ton? Why not ship it twice as fast and at half the cost on a J2 far-trader? Or three times quicker and a third the cost on the subsidized liner service?

Presuming of course in the first place that Regina has anything valuable enough to Efate to bother shipping it across the subsector.

Same goes for passengers.

And before anyone says well it's because the free-trader is leaving when they want it to go out, I'll ask you to note how long they could wait for a J2 far-trader or the J3 subbie and still get there quicker.

Sorry, but the only freight and pax a free-trader is going to see is what's going to the next port of call. And maybe, rarely, the one after that.

Sure, from a roll-play aspect you are correct, what maniac would send cargo by j-1 free trader 6 jumps. Clearly someone who needs the cargo to leave Regina right now, but delivery is not needed in a timely fashion. High value furniture? Aspirin? Wine? Canned goods?

Now, who wouldn't care about the double (than vs a J2 boat) or even triple (than by the J3 boat)? Luxury manufacturers. Rich people wouldn't care about shipping costs if the item was right. Might even pay more if it appeares to them that it takes a long time to get. A real world example is try buying a custom couch some time. People will pay ridiculous money for something they can't have for 4 months when production only takes two.

Now from a non-role play aspect, there is no by the book reason I couldn't roll up cargo for Efate and get it to deliver.

 

[Hal]

I got to thinking (I know I know! Always a bad thing to do!)

If using the rules as written in CT's Bk2 when dealing with the feasibility of purchasing a Jump-2+ ship, we discover that the "per jump" regulation fee of 1,000 per dton for freight, plus the 10,000 Cr per High Passage stateroom or 8,000 Cr per Middle passage stateroom invokes a situation where ships with a jump-2 or higher are severely hampered in making their payments.

I got to thinking about alternative methods of financing - aside from government subsidies, and asked myself "What would happen if I were to organize a corporation titled COTI Investors Group (COTIIG LTD) whose purpose was to create the financial capital investment in procuring a Jump-2 ship. Lets say for the sake of argument, that COTIIG managed to secure its target of 66.5 MCr for the purchase of a Maru Class freighter, which we will tenatively name THE CREDIT DEW (You might guess I like that name for some odd reason). We put the order in for a ship built to the specifications that match the Freighter Jump-2 I gave as an example earlier in the thread. It is produced within the specified amount of time, and the ship is fully stocked and provisioned for our attempt at making a living.

First, what are the environmental factors present in a freighter run between Regina and Efate? For a Jump-2 ship, the run would be (assuming the ship was built at Efate by the way):

Efate to Whanga
Whanga to Forboldn
Forboldn to Regina
Regina to Forboldn
Forboldn to Whanga
Whanga to Efate

Repeat cycle.

Whanga and Forboldn unfortunately are class E starports, which means that one has to use unrefined fuel from either the world in question or from the star system's gas giants.

Using a spreadsheet, it wasn't difficult to total up the expenses involved for that particular run for a period of 26 "jumps" of 2 weeks per jump period of time. On the assumption that the Credit Dew can never pull in enough cargo to fill its 84 dtons of cargo space fully, and that the only time it can actively fill in the remaining 4 dtons with freight is if the crew itself fills its cargo hold with speculative cargo - the default assumption is that it only makes income on 80 dtons of freight per jump.

Net result?

Income: 2 MCr for 25 weeks
Expenses: 658,400 Cr
Net Profit: 1,341,600 Cr

Final result? The COTIIG LTD, if it offers dividends based solely upon its profits, will earn a basic 2.017443609 Cr per share.

Since a share originally sold for 100 Cr per, that works out to a 2.01% rate of return on the investment. That didn't include the costs for hiring a CPA to verify that the records were per Imperial regulations, nor the cost of a CEO's wages, a CFO's wages, etc. It also did not include taxes to be paid to the Imperium and so on and so forth.

About the ONLY way I can think of where it makes sense to consider the prospect of buying a Jump-2 ship (let alone a jump-3 or jump-4 etc ship) is to buy it cash on the barrel after you've built up a hefty nest egg from profits from other endeavors. The problem with that thought is - why would an investor want to invest shares in stock if the return rate is only 2%? One would think that they could and would do better if they were to invest in other "on world" investments rather than risk it on the ship itself.

The more I try to do the math behind things, the more I remember why I thought Jump-2 or higher rated jump ships are not commercially feasible with the rules as presented in CT book 2.

A merchant who buys a Jump-1 ship can build a reasonable profit reasonably quickly - or if under the yoke of a bank loan, can stay financially afloat. A Jump-2 ship however, perishes under the bank's yoke more often than not, and wouldn't make for a feasible "investment" vehicle with only a 2% return rate. Now for the kicker. Because roughly half of the time the ship is using unrefined fuel - our freight hauler runs a 1 in 36 risk of misjumping. This occurs a total of 16 times a year. If I did my math correctly (probably didn't), that means that the odds of not misjumping even once under those circumstances work out to be only 35%. A 1/36 chance of misjump means that there is a 35/36 chance of a normal jump. 16 chances of a misjump means the odds of never rolling a misjump are roughly (35/36)^16 or 35%.

That seems a tad too risky to engage in such "investment vehicles if you ask me.

So, that leaves me with my initial thoughts about the CT trade system. If you apply the same rules to NPC ships as you apply to player character ships, then it would appear that Jump-2 or higher rated commercial ships are relatively rare, and only exist as subsidized ships or exist because some investor didn't do the math and is willing to accept a 2% rate of return on the ship in question.

Now, one last thought before I end this post...

If you're starport authority at Regina, and you recieve a message to the effect that the Credit Dew is overdue, and it was last reported as being seen entering jump space towards Forboldn from Whanga - what would you think? Was it the victim of foul play? Was it a misjump? Did the crew steal the ship? Once High Guard introduced the concept of fuel plant purification systems, it becomes prudent to install such a beastie on your ship for those X and E class starports you may have to deal with. But, with each dton dedicated towards "needful" equipment, the ship owner faces diminishing revenue.

 

[Anthony]

Here's a way to make money with a J2 or J3 ship, though it requires a multi-ship fleet:

Step 1: create a shipping corporation.
Step 2: offer to sell transportation, by J1 ship.
Step 3: charge based on the J1 ship.
Step 4: include in the contract a term that specifies that the shipper is not obligated to send the cargo by any specific ship or route, as long as the cargo arrives within the time which would be required for your J1 ship.
Step 5: send the cargo by whatever ship is convenient.

 

[far-trader]

Whanga and Forboldn unfortunately are class E starports, which means that one has to use unrefined fuel from either the world in question or from the star system's gas giants.

All I can say is you'd better design it under Book 5 and include a fuel purifier (sacrificing cargo capacity). The odds of misjumping are too high using unrefined fuel to make it a good gamble. And personally I'd think there'd be regulations against anything so foolish as jumping with unrefined fuel that would get your loan called and your ship forfeited. One misjump and even if you're not dead the bank is likely to label you skipped.

And if you're thinking of gassing up at the gg and making planet fall in those systems you're adding about a week to your travel time. You'll probably just jump in and out close to the gg.

And don't get me started on the dangers of skimming fuel from a gas giant...

:smirk:

 

[far-trader]

Here's a way to make money with a J2 or J3 ship, though it requires a multi-ship fleet...

:smirk:

So, basically, cheat the system. I still don't see anyone coming to you and saying... "Hey, we want to ship our widgets with you at your J1 offer for three parsecs, so that's Cr3000 per ton right."

More like... "What am I thinking? We can ship our widgets three parsecs with the regular scheduled subbie for Cr1000 per ton in a week. Never mind."

How are you going to compete with that?

 

[Zowy]

Remember the "system" is riged by the MegaCorps. In order to keep most of the long range, high profit speclative trade for themselfs. It is -very- hard for a subsector wide or smaller shiping line to make the jump to the "big leages". Their best chance is along the fringes of the 3I with cross border trade, and will result in tradewars. Like the one Tukera Lines starts vs Oberlindes Lines, when they expand into the Aramis subsector from the Regina. In order to increase their trade with the Vargr.

By cannon, Tukera Lines has a virtual monopoly on long-distance shipping and travel in some subsectors. They may not be makeing money on anything but their speculative trade ventures, but by crushing anyone else who trys to run high jump shiping routs. They make massive profits overall.

 

[Hal]

All I can say is you'd better design it under Book 5 and include a fuel purifier (sacrificing cargo capacity). The odds of misjumping are too high using unrefined fuel to make it a good gamble. And personally I'd think there'd be regulations against anything so foolish as jumping with unrefined fuel that would get your loan called and your ship forfeited. One misjump and even if you're not dead the bank is likely to label you skipped.

And if you're thinking of gassing up at the gg and making planet fall in those systems you're adding about a week to your travel time. You'll probably just jump in and out close to the gg.

And don't get me started on the dangers of skimming fuel from a gas giant...

:smirk:

:innocent:

What dangers?

I agree with your statement that the frontier freighters need to have purification plants aboard to avoid the risks of misjumping. As for keeping to a schedule going through Whanga and Forboln? I wouldn't have the ship make planetfall at those systems for precisely the reason you alluded to. Don't have the time. Unless Forboldn and/or Whanga have the right conditions to do wilderness refueling at the main world, refueling at the gas giant automatically precludes landing at the main planet.

As for the refinery aboard the ship? CT book 2 never had it. HIGH GUARD rectified that omission quickly enough :smirk:

In any event - it should be noted that what I had posted regarding the Corporation owned asset of the Jump-2 freighter makes it unlikely that corporations as an "investment group" approach to financing will be unlikely. Perhaps the ONLY way to sell the idea of having a jump-2 freighter such as the Credit Dew might be that those 4 dtons unlikely to be filled through normal interaction with the freight market, might be what was used for speculative trading.

Hmm. Might even make sense. The corporate headquarters engages in hunting for speculative cargo on its home world, that gives it roughly 12 weeks to cargos that might be worth selling when the main ship comes back to port. The "return on investment" would be cloudied up by having to pay wages for the "speculative cargo hunters", but it does help produce more income for the corporation - not the ship, but the corporation itself.

If a crew were smart enough? They would engage in speculative cargo themselves by buying cargo, renting space aboard their own ship for the corporation, and then selling their speculative cargo, pocketing the money themselves.