Jump 1 vs Jump 2 ships in the CT Imperium

[Hal]

But now you are making stuff up and leaving the rules behind.

If you take the rules given, and you assume the limit of only selecting destinations that you can make on the next jump, then you can use the rules as written with no modifications.

If, however, you open the door to destinations beyond the next jump, you have lots and lots of open questions that have to be answered outside the rules. (Just like you did in the referenced post.)

Excuse me? What rules did I just make up? Payment is PER Jump. Payment for freight delivery is on a per delivery basis. What part did I make up? Filling in the areas left undetailed by Marc is somehow "Wrong"?

As for filling in those things - have you ever wondered how bank payments are made for ships when the ship is presently "Wandering whither it will"? Marc never mentioned that either - yet this is a problem becaue someone pays attention to that level of detail? Riiiigh.

 

[spank]

Ok, did you post that your destination was Terra without consulting with your navigator? No? Good. Here are the maps (assuming that I had been ambitious enough to create a full scalel bunch of sectors between the spinward marches, through the corridor sectors, on down through the bulk of the third Imperium, and then finally, towards Terra). If your jump-1 ship can NOT make the entire journey, then you are going to be stuck when you announce your intent to travel to Terra and you fail to make it there after accepting money. At the least, you will be hit iwth breach of contract. At the worst, with intent to defraud your passengers.

Now, lets say for the sake of argument, that you CAN make the jump to Terra from say, Regina with a jump-1 ship[/unquote]

A2 fartrader = jump 2, not jump 1

 

[atpollard]

Outside of the realm of "what the rules say", but still part of this general conversation, a 100,000 dTon super-liner running between the Regina and Core sectors (following the jump boat route) would probably never be able to fill it's staterooms from any single jump. It could probably maintain full staterooms by announcing all of it's scheduled stops at each world and taking on new passengers to replace those that just got off. Like a train or bus collecting and discharging passengers at each stop along a predictable route.

Just some general thoughts.

 

[daryen]

Once your cargo hold is filled with freight with a given destination and a given posted schedule - the captain can not take on any more freight. Each passenger aboard the ship pays on a "per jump" basis, not all one lump sum at once. If they decide to get off at a given world, or perhaps should die unexpectedly or what have you, there are OTHER worlds where you can post your schedule for, and hope some passenger desires passage to your destination.

You have added to the rules. The rules do not say this at all. This is a decent attempt at extending the existing rules, but you are extending them.

 

[spank]

Just my 2 cents....
Sure you can find a cargo that you can carry for 2 jumps, but.. it will pay less. Because it is a lower priorty cargo. {if it had to be there in 1 week they would just pay full price to get it on a j-2 ship.}

 

[daryen]

Excuse me? What rules did I just make up? Payment is PER Jump. Payment for freight delivery is on a per delivery basis. What part did I make up? Filling in the areas left undetailed by Marc is somehow "Wrong"?

As for filling in those things - have you ever wondered how bank payments are made for ships when the ship is presently "Wandering whither it will"? Marc never mentioned that either - yet this is a problem becaue someone pays attention to that level of detail? Riiiigh.

You made up all of it. You, in the second paragraph, said you are "filling in those things". That means you are making it up.

The rules describe a very specific process to use: You roll for available cargo, then pick a cargo from the selection. Based on the selection, you roll for available passengers. You leave and eventually arrive at the new system and unload your cargo and passengers.

Nothing in the process describes picking up new passengers along the way. Nothing in the process says that passengers only pay as they go. Nothing in the process talks about adding additional cargo (with the same or other destination) along the way. The whole process doesn't even have the concept of an "along the way".

You are expanding on the rules. You are not even "filling holes"; you are outright adding expansions.

Which is fine. Just quit pretending that these are the actual rules.

 

[spank]

Excuse me? What rules did I just make up?

That would be the part about taking passengers and freight for a destination beyond the next.
For what it's worth I agree with the idea of people and thing going farther than 1 jump, but if there are better ships available they will take them. Who is going to pay the same money to get there slower?

 

[far-trader]

Smirking is a sign of a "I gotcha" right?

Err, maybe

I might have used the wrong inflection on typing the smirk

Not exactly a "gotcha", more of a "seems kinda silly when applied to an extreme, but allowable, case"...

...I think.

Pressed for time, have to get back to replying in more depth later

 

[mbrinkhues]

You made up all of it. You, in the second paragraph, said you are "filling in those things". That means you are making it up.

The rules describe a very specific process to use: You roll for available cargo, then pick a cargo from the selection. Based on the selection, you roll for available passengers. You leave and eventually arrive at the new system and unload your cargo and passengers.

Nothing in the process describes picking up new passengers along the way. Nothing in the process says that passengers only pay as they go. Nothing in the process talks about adding additional cargo (with the same or other destination) along the way. The whole process doesn't even have the concept of an "along the way".

You are expanding on the rules. You are not even "filling holes"; you are outright adding expansions.

Which is fine. Just quit pretending that these are the actual rules.

Sorry but I can't see any rules being "made up". There are two interpretations of what can be done/is covered by the rules. I see no problems in Hal's interpretation. And it matches reality quite nicely.

a) On the "circular route" example

That is actually what might happen. If there is a liner that goes along a route in a fixed way you only have two options. One is to pay up and shut up and the other is to look for another ride. As long as the liner either post the flightplan before you buy a ticket OR offers you a fixed price to your destination there is nothing to protest. It's a matter of supply and demand. If you don't like my offer, see if you can find a better one

b) Cargo to Terra, Part I

So you offer me a cargo to Terra. Fine, IF your offer seems good enough (Filling my hold etc) I will take it and deliver your cargo. Actually that is a good job, steady payment for the next x month/years. If your credit rating is good enough and I expect either steady cargo at my designation OR a cargo back, we have a deal

c) Cargo to Terra, Part II

So the player tries to be funny. That leaves me a number of options. Either I don't offer you a cargo for Terra. Or you get your cargo and we play the Traders campaing through the 3I instead of the Boring Marches. What's the problem?

d) Flexible shedules

Again depends on what the ship has flagged out and what the ship IS. If the Captain wrote "Will be going to x by a, b, c" then that is the contract. If he wrote "Will be going to x depending on availabel cargo and passengers" than the passenger takes the risk. If you want a guaranteed flight plan, take a liner and not a tramp frighter. Let's face it there IS a reason to take a irregular tramp over a regular liner. Maybe the old man and his young "pupil" have something to hide

If the players are crewing a liner on a sheduled run (and don't fall asleep playing Otto Normalverbraucher) than they have to keep shedules and miss adventures. If they are a tramp, it's a matter of the contract the roleplayed

 

[Hal]

You made up all of it. You, in the second paragraph, said you are "filling in those things". That means you are making it up.

The rules describe a very specific process to use: You roll for available cargo, then pick a cargo from the selection. Based on the selection, you roll for available passengers. You leave and eventually arrive at the new system and unload your cargo and passengers.

Nothing in the process describes picking up new passengers along the way. Nothing in the process says that passengers only pay as they go. Nothing in the process talks about adding additional cargo (with the same or other destination) along the way. The whole process doesn't even have the concept of an "along the way".

You are expanding on the rules. You are not even "filling holes"; you are outright adding expansions.

Which is fine. Just quit pretending that these are the actual rules.

Ok, lets do this the VERY detailed way, using the Traveller Checklist as well as the actual rules themselves.

Lets call the ship the Credit Dew - because I like the name. Lets assume I have a full ship's complement of Pilot, Engineer, Medic, an Steward and that I'm using a Beowulf class A2 ship. I am exiting Jump space on my way to Regina, 6 parsecs away from Efate. For purposes of this example, I am going to take YOU at your word that one can get to Glisten from Efate using Jump 1. Since I'm starting at Regina, lets presume that the next step along the way to Glisten is Jenghe

Now I know this is going to be tedious, but bear with me as I go through the steps. I will leave out any "roleplaying flourishes" and stick STRICTLY to the cold dull stuff.

Exit Jumpspace near Regina.
Scan area to determine where I exited J-space.
Plot course towards Regina Mainworld.
Arrive at Regina.
Land at Regina Starport.
Unload High Passengers (still following the rules here)
Unload Middle Passengers
Unload Cargo hold
(question - when does one get paid according to the rules - when you deliver the freight or upon taking the freight - I can see nowhere in the rules where it states this)
Unload low berths
(don't do the low lottery - bleh!) (so sue me!)
Refuel ship
Refit consumables for lifesupport.
Pay berthing costs
Pay bank payment owed (owe Regina Bank for bank payments as fact)
Make accounting notation that Maint fund is owed money
Pay biweekly crew salaries (rules say Monthly, so sue me)
Now it is time for me to look for freight - as we don't do speculative stuff.

This is where you and I digress. I've shown where YOUR interpretation falls flat, and you want me to show my interpretation and point out where IT falls flat, so bear with me.

To the GM (aka the rules) I ask "Is there cargo available at Regina destined for Glisten?" GM responds "Regina is a pop 8 world with a Tech A. Destination Glisten is a pop 9 world with a Tech F. Tech A minus Tech F results a -5 modifier to all rolls for freight and passengers.

FREIGHT:
Major: 1d6+4-6+1 = 1d6-1. Rolling a 3, I get 2 major lots. Rolling a 3 and a 3, that's 30 dtons and 30 dtons.
Minor: 1d6+5-5 = 1d6. Rolling a 4, I get a result of 4 minor lots. Rolling 3, 4, 6, and 1, we have 15, 20, 30, and 5 lots respectively.
Incidental lots is 1d6-8+1 which means we have no incidental lots regardless.

Passengers:
High Passengers: 3d6-1d6-5+3. Rolling 3d6 I get a 1, 4, and 5. Total is 10. Minus 2 gives me 8 potential High Passengers.

As the Credit Dew can not take on more than 6 passengers, I don't bother rolling for middle passengers.

Low Passage:
4d6-5+3 or a roll of 1,2, 2, & 3. 8 +3-5 = 6. Now have 6 Low passengers available. As I am content with this, I'm going to leave the remaining tubes empty.

Now I am all set.

Going to page 9 of the little black book 2 Starships, I find that a jump-1 ship heading towards a destination 3 parsecs away, charges the passengers for each leg of the journey, requiring that they buy 3 tickets. Now, the rules do not specify how and when those tickets are purchased. Are they purchased at the start all at once? Are they purchased one at a time AS the ship jumps to its next destination? Strangely, the actual rules are silent on this. As GM, I have to choose. Ok, lets try it the simple way. Odds/Evens. If Odds, passengers have to buy tickets in ADVANCE. If evens, they buy it prior to the ship's lifting off towards the next destination - like always. I rolled a 5. Note however, I would have been just as happy to roll a 2,4, or 6 and lived with the results (In my traveller universe, it would be that way instead). Now I've taken the money in advance for THREE tickets. In theory - that is no different than a passenger who buys a ticket on Wednesday for a Friday departure, only to call in Thursday and demand a refund because they're not going - problem is, that's a ROLE PLAYING event rather than a ROLL THE DICE event. Problems problems problems. More on this later...

Now I know I have freight I'm contracting to deliver to its destination, and I have passsengers who want to go to my destination. I have forced them to buy their tickets in advance (Who would have believed it!!!) and am now ready to head out.

Load Freight.
Load middle passengers
Load High passengers

AH!!! found it:

Collect income from all aspects of current trip.
Lift-off into orbit. Set course to beyond 100 diameters of world
Reach jump location.
Push button - enter Jump space bound for Jenghe.

Continued next post.

 

[spank]

Having generated the results for 15 worlds for the Jump-4 captain, how is the GM supposed to justify that the Jump-1 captain can not find the same passengers/freight lots that the Jump-4 captain has available.

this is very easy to justify, the J-1 captain can't deliver the freight or passengers in the same time as the J-4 captain. I mean he can post the trip, {I suppose}, but he will likely not get any takers. To make a rather extreme example I could take my van, go across the street from the airport and offer to take the passengers to the same place they are taking the plane to, for the same price, but it would take longer. How many takers would I get?, not very many I think.

How is the GM supposed to justify that although the Jump-1 ship CAN in fact make it to the world 3 parsecs away, can't post that his jump destination will be the world three parsecs away, and that three tickets are required to reach it, and that cargo lots will have to pay for three jumps transit?

This scenario would be even less likely to get a taker, 3 times the cost for a trip that takes 3 times as long? there would have to be some EXETREME factors at work for anyone to accept this offer, or to make this offer. I would be extremely wary of either party.

 

[daryen]

For purposes of this example, I am going to take YOU at your word that one can get to Glisten from Efate using Jump 1. Since I'm starting at Regina, lets presume that the next step along the way to Glisten is Jenghe

The path is good. Both are on the Spinward Main.

BTW, just to state the point here, but we *can't* get any cargo in Regina. We already got the cargo at Efate (our starting point) for Glisten (our destination). We can't get any more cargo because we are not at our starting point or at our destination.

However, I will save this, as I will soon repeat this entire point again when you make your second point. From now on, I will assume we are actually travelling from Regina to Glisten.

each leg of the journey, requiring that they buy 3 tickets. Now, the rules do not specify how and when those tickets are purchased. Are they purchased at the start all at once? Are they purchased one at a time AS the ship jumps to its next destination? Strangely, the actual rules are silent on this. As GM, I have to choose.

See, this is what I am talking about. You only have to make a choice if you allow destinations greater than one jump away. If you do not roll for cargos to destinations more than one jump away, there is no rule hole. There is no choice to be made. The rules don't address this issue, because it isn't an issue to the rules.

It only becomes a "rules hole" after the rules are extended to allow a ship to roll for destinations more than one jump away. So, you are running into a situation where the rules don't answer a question caused by your expansion of the rules. That is not a rules hole, it is simply an extra point that you must address with your expansion.

Now, I will wait for your second post so I can remake my first point again, but in more detail ...

 

[daryen]

Sorry but I can't see any rules being "made up". There are two interpretations of what can be done/is covered by the rules. I see no problems in Hal's interpretation. And it matches reality quite nicely.

On the surface, yes, you can interpret the rules Hal's way. Until you look at and realize all of the "holes" his interpretation causes and realize there are no holes if you interpret the rules Hans' way.* That alone is a very strong indication that Hans' interpretation is probably correct.

Oh, and nothing in the Traveller trade rules "matches reality quite nicely". It really doesn't matter which interpretation you use. The rules are merely a quick facilitator for adventures. They don't match anything even close to reality. (And, in fairness, aren't intended to.)

Again depends on what the ship has flagged out and what the ship IS. If the Captain wrote "Will be going to x by a, b, c" then that is the contract. If he wrote "Will be going to x depending on availabel cargo and passengers" than the passenger takes the risk. If you want a guaranteed flight plan, take a liner and not a tramp frighter. Let's face it there IS a reason to take a irregular tramp over a regular liner. Maybe the old man and his young "pupil" have something to hide

First, would someone tell me were in the rules anyone said anything about a "flight plan"? Or it mattering what type of ship the players have? Or that passengers rolled actually have alternatives? All of that is outside the rules and (quite frankly) irrelevant to the discussion I am having with Hal.

What matters is this: You roll for available cargos. The cargo(s) you select determine your destination. You get passengers for that destination. You go to that destination. That is pretty much the extent of the rules.

The route to your destination does not matter. You do not get cargo or passengers at any point between the origin and destination. As a matter of fact, nothing is said at all about what happens at any intermediary points between the origin and the destination.

Sure, you can always make stuff up to cover that. No problem; go for it. But none of what is made up is actually in the rules. You made it up.

And that is my point.

* (Actually, there are still holes. This is Traveller, after all. But all of the holes caused by Hal's interpretation of the rules go away.)

 

[Hal]

Now the real fun begins...

Ship arrives in Jenghe after being outbound from Regina.

At this point in time, the Credit Dew, with the payment paid just prior to lift off, is rolling in the dough BIG time. Per the rules saying that it has to be paid prior to lift off, the question becomes one of "Ok, now what".

The now what part depends on how you "interpret" the rules.

Per page 9 of the Black book 2, we find that passengers are required to purchase their tickets - ALL three of them if their destination were a destination that was 3 parsecs away using a Jump-1 ship.

It doesn't say WHEN those tickets are purchased. The point is - per the "checklist" payment is made prior to the jump. Destination is always going to be the Next World on the schedule, heading towards the ultimate destination as determined by the Freight itself.

The real question then, is when does the FREIGHT get paid. We already have the answer to when the passengers pay, and whether or not a predetermined longer than one jump destination can be chosen by those passengers. We also already know they have to pay before the flight begins and that they have to buy tickets for each intermediary location prior to that destination.

If the freight for a LONG distance haul is paid up front, then fine and dandy. It just means that the ship has a LOT of money that it is obligated for.

Now - them's the rules. All that remains is the fiddly parts that come into play as a result of ROLE PLAYING.

If a passenger decides to pay ALL of the ticket price up front from Regina to Glisten - then any time a passenger decides to get off the ship, the ship owes him the balance of funds unused - ie a rebate. This is no different from a role playing situation where a passenger books passage on a Thursday for a Saturday departure, and then decides on Friday to cancel their booking. What a PASSENGER does is the sole domain of the GM, not the rules, not some automated checklist - but the GM. The rules don't tell the GM how to run a pirate attack on a player character ship. They don't tell the GM how to role play the NPC passengers. Every time a ship lands in port, the passengers have the option of remaining with the ship, or demanding to be let off.

So that Issue is resolved.

What remains then, is what happens when the ship has all that cash in ADVANCE. Therein lies the decision of the GM, as the rules do not specifically categorically state what is to be done in that particular example. Do the rules tell the GM what happens if an NPC has a heart attack while in transit? Nope. That is what the GM is there for. Do the rules specify what happens if the Captain decides to put all of his passengers in low passage and obscond with the money? It is common sense that the authorities will go after him. It is up to the GM to supply those missing "fiddly" parts.

So - the issue remains - what part of the rules violates the actual reading of those two critical portions of the Revenue rules?

As best as I can tell, NONE of it does. The rule regarding revenue is per jump rather than parsec is tucked away in the passenger section. Does it apply equally to freight? If not, then the question becomes one of "why not and what are the ramifications of the different revenue rules for passenger versus freight? Does it violate the provision of generating freight first, then passengers? Nope. Does it violate anything else? Not that I can see. It all depends on whether you're of the mindset that all "rolls" are per jump - which the rules do NOT state outright, or whether it is per destination world, which the rules DO specifically state. The only real issue at hand is the meaning of

"the referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on jump number), and roll for each such world on the cargo table"

Accessible how? By one Jump only? I state that it violates what was written in the subsequent paragraph about jumping to a destination 3 parsecs away for a jump-1 ship as compared against what happens when a jump-3 ship makes a jump to the same destination with the same passengers.

Jumping to a world with multiple jumps however, contradicts NOTHING in writing.

Take it for what it is worth, and since a few of you seem hell bent on saying it is worth nothing, that is your choice. For the rest of you who have read this and decide "he has a point", again, that is your choice

Now, I've got some work to do creating an excel spreadsheet for someone. I've put it off long enough as it is.

 

[far-trader]

...To make a rather extreme example I could take my van, go across the street from the airport and offer to take the passengers to the same place they are taking the plane to, for the same price, but it would take longer. How many takers would I get?, not very many I think.

Not many I'd agree...

The ones who got bumped (middle passage in Traveller) from the liner and need to still get there, one way or another.

The ones afraid to fly But they probably wouldn't be at the airport then anyway, and it probably doesn't apply to Starship travel*

* unless there is an increasing discomfort level with longer jump ranges for those sensitive to the transition to or different "levels" of jump space, which I find an interesting idea, and justification enough for a special patron encounter

...and even then they may not be travelling with you the whole way. More likely they get to your next port of call and immediately find a ship going further on and leaving before you are so they don't waste time waiting for you.

This scenario would be even less likely to get a taker, 3 times the cost for a trip that takes 3 times as long? there would have to be some EXTREME factors at work for anyone to accept this offer, or to make this offer. I would be extremely wary of either party.

Indeed.

 

[Anthony]

This scenario would be even less likely to get a taker, 3 times the cost for a trip that takes 3 times as long? there would have to be some EXETREME factors at work for anyone to accept this offer, or to make this offer. I would be extremely wary of either party.

Not all that extreme. There just has to be no space available on J3 ships. Probably because no sane businessman is interested in space on a J3 ship at the price of space on a J1 ship.

 

[Hal]

This scenario would be even less likely to get a taker, 3 times the cost for a trip that takes 3 times as long? there would have to be some EXETREME factors at work for anyone to accept this offer, or to make this offer. I would be extremely wary of either party.

Spank - do the math. Create a Jump 3 ship, price it out, assume that your character paid the 20% down payment, and calculate the monthly bank payment that will be required for that jump-3 ship. Then use the "income earned is per JUMP" rule as listed in the book. THen try to see how long that ship can operate. You will find that it can't survive strictly as a freight hauler. It HAS to operate as a speculation trade ship. That means that if it can find the cargo it wants, it doesn't have the room taken up by its cargo for ordinary freight.

Remember the ships I posted earlier? To make a jump-3 version of that ship, which originally cost 66.5 MCr, we need to change its drives and fuel required for the Jump-3 configuration. A Jump-3 config requires Drive C's instead of B's. This costs an additional 5 Dtons of cargo space (Difference of a C over a B drive) and an additional 10 MCr. The manuever drive remains unchanged, so now we need a powerplant upgrade. A C powerplant requires another 3 Dtons and another 8 MCr. Now for the fuel requirements. Upgrading it by one level for the power plant increases fuel consumption by 10 dtons. Problem is? Increasing the Jump distance for the ship also increases the jump fuel requirement by another 20 dtons. Net "change" to the J2 configuration ship?

Reduce Cargo bay by 20 (jump fuel) + 10 (powerplant fuel) + 5 (jump drive) + 3 (powerplant upgrade) or by -38 dtons.

Increase cost of ship by +18 MCr. But wait! There is more! You need to upgrade your computer to a Model 3, because you have jump three computing needs. That's another 9 MCr right there. Of course, you could use a Model 2 Bis instead...

66.5+27 MCr will result in a Jump-3 starship at 200 dtons, capable of carrying only 46 dtons left for cargo/freight carrying.

Try running a Jump-3 ship using only 46 dtons of cargo space with a price tag of 93.5 MCr. Wanna bet that it can't SURVIVE as a freight hauler? Wanna bet that after taking on speculative cargo, that it will have VERY little available space for carrying "freight" at freight rates of 1,000 credits per jump?

 

[far-trader]

Try running a Jump-3 ship using only 46 dtons of cargo space with a price tag of 93.5 MCr. Wanna bet that it can't SURVIVE as a freight hauler? Wanna bet that after taking on speculative cargo, that it will have VERY little available space for carrying "freight" at freight rates of 1,000 credits per jump?

That's why J3 ships are not small (even 600ton minimum seems too small), usually subsidized, and almost certainly not bought on mortgage but purchased in full for cash and amortized at more reasonable rates by the purchaser. They would probably only take freight to fill out the hold after arranging as much speculative cargo as possible, using local factors not available to PCs and allowing much bigger lot purchases at better prices.

 

[Hal]

That's why J3 ships are not small (even 600ton minimum seems too small), usually subsidized, and almost certainly not bought on mortgage but purchased in full for cash and amortized at more reasonable rates by the purchaser. They would probably only take freight to fill out the hold after arranging as much speculative cargo as possible, using local factors not available to PCs and allowing much bigger lot purchases at better prices.

Ok - even better

Build a J-3 ship of ANY size you want, with ONE proviso. NO government subsidies. If you use Government subsidies, you are automatically admitting that the ship can not survive on its own in a normal "Traveller" universe.

Edit: Oh, almost forgot. Determine what the rate of return on the investment is for the ship. I determined that for a Jump-2 200 dton ship, that the rate of return on a Jump-2 ship purchased cash on the barrel was about 2% before taking into account the fees involved for paying corporate taxes, wages for various corporate members, etc.

 

[far-trader]

Ok - even better

Build a J-3 ship of ANY size you want, with ONE proviso. NO government subsidies.

Can't be done*, but...

If you use Government subsidies, you are automatically admitting that the ship can not survive on its own in a normal "Traveller" universe.

I admit no such thing I repeat, the CT trade rules are for simple PC trade using small PC ships. Other situations will use different "rules". The impact of these different "rules" on the PCs, in the Imperium, is that they are left with very few cargoes and passengers to pick from and they are only allowed to charge the listed prices for the services.

* depending on the rules used for building the ship and the trade allowed, may be possible under GT Far-Trader

Edit: Oh, almost forgot. Determine what the rate of return on the investment is for the ship. I determined that for a Jump-2 200 dton ship, that the rate of return on a Jump-2 ship purchased cash on the barrel was about 2% before taking into account the fees involved for paying corporate taxes, wages for various corporate members, etc.

I believe I have figured that profitable J2 trade is possible under the CT rules, with a minimum hull of 400tons. It is not possible in anything smaller. Other rule sets may differ.

I don't think I found a way under a couple thousand tons that even came close for J3. And anything bigger requires the aforementioned other "rules" to even fill the ship never mind making it profitable.