Jump number for Bombardment Cruiser

[McPerth]

The bombardment cruiser needs significant missile ammo

Missiles are not the only weapons usable to bombard (as ortillery or mass bombing). Lasers and high energy weapons can also be used (at least in CT/MT) and are quite cheap, while not needing ammunition, an advantage if it has to work alone as you say.

 

[Vladika]

Back to the point: The bombardment cruiser needs significant missile ammo(more than the typical cruiser), nuclear dampers, perhaps even backup systems, screens would be nice, and armor. A lot of armor. A slow ship is fine. It gets where its going and stays a while (J2, 1G?), numerous fighter squadrons, and point defense.

All true. I'd still expect some escort and support ships though.

Remember she is alone...no support for an extended period.

Invasion Earth is a good example but I'd have to review the forces.

So perhaps a better concept to start with is as what TL does Earth (or any world fighting for freedom) have against a superior invader with a single ship. Lets skip the movies and books (WotW, ID4 was huge, Footfall, etc...) and think Traveller. :smirk:

A ship alone isn't going to successfully invade any significantly populated world. A ship alone, of the type you seem to have in mind, could utterly annihilate a planet like TL 7-8 Earth. We are back to toast. :toast: Burned. Black.

 

[Vladika]

Missiles are not the only weapons usable to bombard (as ortillery or mass bombing). Lasers and high energy weapons can also be used (at least in CT/MT) and are quite cheap, while not needing ammunition, an advantage if it has to work alone as you say.

Since energy is "free" Meson Bay weapons would be an excellent choice in this role. (I'm assuming GG refueling.)

 

[aramis]

Since energy is "free" Meson Bay weapons would be an excellent choice in this role. (I'm assuming GG refueling.)

If it's meson armed, the cruiser can destroy civilization within a few days.

It just starts carving military bases up until people surrender.

The real issue is that it needs food. It can only stay on station for 2 weeks, then it needs to either leave for resupply of food and filters, or have gotten a space-capable ally dirtside to ship up food. Keeping in mind that a person needs about 1L to 2L of rations per day, at about 1.1kg/L, and a cargo launch of the dragon is actually limited as much by mass... about 24cubic meters (10 internal), but only 6000kg... so roughly 4000 person days of milspec rations. For the 2000 crew of a OTU Cruiser, each dragon is about 2 days. Going to reduced rations, common pot, and filling out with rice, and reduced activity, stretch that to 4-6 days per dragon launch. If one skips the capsule, and just straps cartes into a nosecone, maybe 2 weeks per launch. If it sends shuttles down, it risks them being lost, but the food can be sent up in multi-month lots and be a lot better than MRE/MCI/MFI rations.

 

[Vladika]

If it's meson armed, the cruiser can destroy civilization within a few days.

It just starts carving military bases up until people surrender.

Exactly.

...The real issue is that it needs food.

This is why I think accompanying support ships need to be present. Also, even if the cruiser could fuel skim, it is better off pounding its target into submission rather than taking time off to "go for gas." Whatever your support ships are called they need to be able to resupply Food, Fuel and Ammo (Missiles).

Keep whatever cargo holds you have on-board filled with missiles and a month or so of food. Transport missiles in an Ammunition Ship. Have a Tanker on-hand for fueling. Use a General Stores Issue Ship for all else. (Dromedaries work well but carry less quantities than multiple specialty ships would, especially missiles should that be your preferred weapon.) I'd use Bay Mesons for the "free power" as well as focused targeting so there might be a planet left to take over.

Above all, Escorts appropriate to the mission. You don't want to lose either the cruiser, or the supporting ships, to some unforeseen military action on the part of your enemy, or their allies.

 

[savage]

Bombardment Cruiser

The concept is the ideal bombardment cruiser correct? Not a breakdown of the bombardment process. Hence, the full capabilities of one ship.

An interesting piece from 2005 supporting zero space based weapons statements.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/8089747/n...ian-reality-check-space-weapons/#.UXb7iHDA4UU

 

[stealth]

I guess the best bomardement ship carries 100dton planetoid bombers.

No need for a dispersed structure, just make sure it can skim fuel. Config-6 (Saucer) should do. Or config 1 if you really worry about Meson guns.

Say, jump 6, 2G (so it can refuel on hi-G planets), Power-6 should do it.

Give it full screens and computer. The extra power plant can handle the meson sceen and nuclear damper, as well as any bay armamnet.

Let's say armour-5 so nukes can't cause crew casualties and conventional weapons can't cause drive hits.

Make in 19,999 tons for the HG hit DM.

7% Jump Drive
6% Power Plant
5% Maneuver Drive
60% Jump fuel
6% Power fuel
6% Armour
2% Bridge
----
92% Total

That leaves 1,600 tons for weapons, screens, computer and crew. You could put on meson bays, PA cannon, full screens, and the 1000 dton asteroid bomber Carlobrand talked about (which it can easily refuel, being J-6 and streamlined).

Of course, it wouldn't stand a chance in a real fight (I would buy light cruisers instead) but it does have legs and endurance. And it can take lots of fuel and weapon hits once in orbit.

 

[stealth]

You know, at TL-15 the ultimate starship that does everything is the light cruiser.

I guess you only need bombardement cruisers if you're TL 10-12 or something, where fighters really make sense.

Consider the TL15 light cruiser:

25 ktons, Agility-6, armour 5 (so nukes don't cause crew casualties and conventional weapons weapons wont hurt the drives), maximum screens, a model-9 fib, Meson-J, and mostly 50 ton missle bays.

^^^ Just buy lots of those, they kill dreadnoughts fast. A 200 kton Plankwell is not equal to 8 of them in firepower - that's 8 J-guns versus your one T-gun. You might get one hit on one cruiser (and take out another with secondary batteries) before the J-guns shatter your fuel tanks and slaughter your crew. In the first twenty minutes. That's a horrible combat ratio.

I'm sorry, but at TL-15 it makes sense to only build light cruisers.

 

[Carlobrand]

Weapons we can't get into space, let alone hit a TL15 500kt anything.

Technically, weapons we won't get into space. We can land a man on the moon, we can put a spacelab in orbit, we can put something the size of a space shuttle up there - a nuke's a piece of cake. However, I think there was some treaty out there that enjoined the nuclear powers from putting nukes in orbit.

Or, as I tell my kids when they tell me we can't do this or that: "We can do whatever is possible, it's just that some of it comes with unpleasant consequences."

... Even IF there were Nuclear Dampers, given HG rules quite enough of those missile are going to hit, nearly ALL of them. ...

I'm confused. I thought we were talking about the ship using NDs against the planet's missiles, not the other way around.

Rye toast with real butter and hot Russian Caravan tea please. Great breakfast.

Now I'm confused and hungry.

...
Remember she is alone...no support for an extended period. ... So perhaps a better concept to start with is as what TL does Earth (or any world fighting for freedom) have against a superior invader with a single ship. Lets skip the movies and books (WotW, ID4 was huge, Footfall, etc...) and think Traveller. :smirk:

Why is she alone? We were proposing a bombardment cruiser, but I thought the idea was a special duty ship to be sent in once the fleet had secured the orbital space. I wasn't thinking in terms of the fleet leaving once the ship got there. I figured the ship would score reloads from transports serving the fleet.

What do you mean by, "what TL does Earth ... have against a superior invader with a single ship"? What TL does it need to have to defend itself against a TL15 attacker? Or, what TL would the invader need to be for modern Earth to have a chance at resisting?

Missiles are not the only weapons usable to bombard (as ortillery or mass bombing). Lasers and high energy weapons can also be used (at least in CT/MT) and are quite cheap, while not needing ammunition, an advantage if it has to work alone as you say.

Lasers, if I understand the rules aright - and depending on the rules set - end up attacking much as a bombardment of HEAP warheads would, which is to say they pierce into whatever they hit and cause damage to that, but no damage beyond the object hit. Nice for killing tanks, not as effective against large bodies of troops - although I imagine it can be quite shocking to watch your buddy take a 250 megawatt laser hit.

High energy weapons - plasma and fusion weapons - suffer significant range attenuation due to atmosphere. The best of the best in High Guard, the TL14 Fusion Gun, comes away with an effective range in atmosphere of around 21 kilometers - you'd have to be deep in atmosphere duking it out with the planet's atmospheric forces before you could put that on a planetside target with full strength.

They can be used at their extreme range, a bit over 84 klicks, and still pack a whollop, though nowhere near their usual punch. That's well above the range of air-breathing engines, up in the troposphere where the air is extremely, extremely thin - you're at the altitude of the aurorae, interestingly. However, that attenuation means you're punching about as hard as the Fusion X or Fusion Y tank guns once your shot reaches the ground. You're having to come in pretty close to do it - close enough that some of the larger battlefied missiles can probably reach you. Means you're fending off more ordnance than you might otherwise need to worry about. Still a very impressive artillery barrage.

 

[aramis]

To defend against a TL15 bombardment ship, it needs Nuclear Dampers or massive plandef units, plus meson screens for all major urban areas and military bases. And it needs them in sufficient numbers and stocked with at least 4 weeks food reserves.

In other words, at a minimum, TL12 for the meson screens.

At TL 9-12, massive waves of attrition units or some defensive ships capable of taking the fight to it before it can take the fight to the politicians.

Thing is, ANY TL15 main battle unit (Cruiser, battleship) is capable of bombardment... Traveller Meson Guns, unrealistic as they are, are brutally efficient, provided you don't plan to take the industrial base intact.

And, to be blunt, if you are going for a foreign world of lower tech, your best bet is to eradicate any traces of industrial capacity, and turn it into an agricultural world. Meson Guns to the military bases, and then the cities, leaves you with a whole lot of "surplus population" ceasing. Remember: No population, no popular unrest. Let those who prove loyal move off after a certain few years, but let them keep in touch.

No single ship is taking over a world, but it can render a world incapable of military action. And meson guns are highly efficient - they disrupt the molecular structure, resulting in dust. use it to put a cloud bank, then kill the city. You'll create a rainstorm and turn that dust into mud.

 

[Vladika]

...armour 5 (so nukes don't cause crew casualties...

Read your HG Damage table (Assuming CT, HG2) You will take crew hits from nukes until you use an armor factor of 6.

 

[Vladika]

I'm confused. I thought we were talking about the ship using NDs against the planet's missiles, not the other way around.

In this case I was pointing out that ground targets would have to have NDs to have any hope of survival. Even then it only prolongs the inevitably of destruction of the planetary missile launchers.

If you control the space above a world, you can destroy that world at your leisure.

 

[McPerth]

Since energy is "free" Meson Bay weapons would be an excellent choice in this role. (I'm assuming GG refueling.)

That will depend on the size of the ship, as meson bays require lots of power to fire, while lasers or fusion guns are relatively cheap in power needs.

The real issue is that it needs food. It can only stay on station for 2 weeks, then it needs to either leave for resupply of food and filters, or have gotten a space-capable ally dirtside to ship up food. Keeping in mind that a person needs about 1L to 2L of rations per day, at about 1.1kg/L, and a cargo launch of the dragon is actually limited as much by mass... about 24cubic meters (10 internal), but only 6000kg... so roughly 4000 person days of milspec rations. For the 2000 crew of a OTU Cruiser, each dragon is about 2 days. Going to reduced rations, common pot, and filling out with rice, and reduced activity, stretch that to 4-6 days per dragon launch. If one skips the capsule, and just straps cartes into a nosecone, maybe 2 weeks per launch. If it sends shuttles down, it risks them being lost, but the food can be sent up in multi-month lots and be a lot better than MRE/MCI/MFI rations.

If you have no missiles, the space devoted to magazines can be devoted to supplies, extending the endurance in this way. Of course, again this will depend on the ship's and crew sizes.

 

[McPerth]

Lasers, if I understand the rules aright - and depending on the rules set - end up attacking much as a bombardment of HEAP warheads would, which is to say they pierce into whatever they hit and cause damage to that, but no damage beyond the object hit. Nice for killing tanks, not as effective against large bodies of troops - although I imagine it can be quite shocking to watch your buddy take a 250 megawatt laser hit.

High energy weapons - plasma and fusion weapons - suffer significant range attenuation due to atmosphere. The best of the best in High Guard, the TL14 Fusion Gun, comes away with an effective range in atmosphere of around 21 kilometers - you'd have to be deep in atmosphere duking it out with the planet's atmospheric forces before you could put that on a planetside target with full strength.

They can be used at their extreme range, a bit over 84 klicks, and still pack a whollop, though nowhere near their usual punch. That's well above the range of air-breathing engines, up in the troposphere where the air is extremely, extremely thin - you're at the altitude of the aurorae, interestingly. However, that attenuation means you're punching about as hard as the Fusion X or Fusion Y tank guns once your shot reaches the ground. You're having to come in pretty close to do it - close enough that some of the larger battlefied missiles can probably reach you. Means you're fending off more ordnance than you might otherwise need to worry about. Still a very impressive artillery barrage.

This can be rules dependent, but for MT, a TL14 fusión gun has planetary range (up to 50000 km), firing with a penetration of 105 up to very distant range (50 km) and with pen 52 for longer shoots, inflicting 800 DP. Even if it cannot penétrate, as penetration would be over 10% of any armor (assuming the 10% rule is in effect, in any case if not) it would inflict 80 structural points to any vehicle in a danger space (radius) of 45 meters (so 90 meters diameter). I guess that can be quite destructive and demoralizing for ground tropos, while quite precise bombardements are posible.

Same is true for TL13 Pulse Lasers, with a penetration of 80 up to very long range and 40 onwards, but with Far Orbit range (up to 500000 km) and a ROF of 4. TL13 Beam Lasers will have only 75 pen up to very long and 37 onwards, and no ROF.

 

[Carlobrand]

This can be rules dependent, but for MT, a TL14 fusión gun has planetary range (up to 50000 km), firing with a penetration of 105 up to very distant range (50 km) and with pen 52 for longer shoots, inflicting 800 DP. ...

MegaT Player's handbook, right? Which is to say much depends on the rules one is operating under. Consistency was never one of Traveller's strong suits.

 

[McPerth]

MegaT Player's handbook, right?

es. I cannot tell about striker, where I know those weapons are also depicted as ortillery, as I have no Access to it.

Which is to say much depends on the rules one is operating under. Consistency was never one of Traveller's strong suits.

That's why I began warning everyone that it could be rules dependent...

 

[savage]

alone

What do you mean by, "what TL does Earth ... have against a superior invader with a single ship"? What TL does it need to have to defend itself against a TL15 attacker? Or, what TL would the invader need to be for modern Earth to have a chance at resisting?

Either are good questions to discuss.

Why is she alone? Because any ship can reach the capacity of it's design when being evaluated alone. All ships should also be designed as a valued part of a fleet. Those are two separate analysis events.

More Interesting (public) US Govt Info. as one considers the attack of a bombardment cruiser on a mid-tech world. Clearly a planet needs a defensive strategy but firing from 50000km (27000nm) at ground targets is a tough invader.

Here is some additional interesting info.

Altitude:
The chinese have hit missiles at 150mi.
The space shuttles ranged from 190-385mi. (619km) in their various projects.
Nike had an altitude of about 11km
Patriot has an altitude of about 24km
US Development progression dates:
1984 First Hit-to-Kill Intercept of Missile in Space
1987 First Hit-to-Kill Intercept of a Tactical Ballistic Missile
1988 Designation of Army Space Command
1990 High Energy Laser Systems Test Facility Transferred to Command
1991 All Theater Missile Defense Transferred to Command
1997 First Lasing of Satellite by Ground-Based Laser
1999 Hit-to-Kill with Patriot & Terminal High Altitude Air Defense
2001 Computer Network Operations Mission Added
2002 High Altitude Proponent
2003 1stSpace Brigade and 100th Missile Defense Brigade (GMD) Activations
2008 Nanosatellite Development

Here is a nice perspective view of the orbits on wiki.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Orbitalaltitudes.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Comparison_satellite_navigation_orbits.svg

So if missiles we're 90,000 km and most weapons we're 4,000 to 45000km it would not be much of a contest. Patriot launches on incoming missiles might take out some of the initial hits from a Bombardment Cruiser.

 

[Carlobrand]

...That's why I began warning everyone that it could be rules dependent...

My bad; I'm much more familiar with Striker and tend to think from that perspective. Been trying to grok MegaTrav, made some headway, but there's a heck of a lot of detail there.

Either are good questions to discuss.

Why is she alone? Because any ship can reach the capacity of it's design when being evaluated alone. All ships should also be designed as a valued part of a fleet. Those are two separate analysis events.

More Interesting (public) US Govt Info. as one considers the attack of a bombardment cruiser on a mid-tech world. Clearly a planet needs a defensive strategy but firing from 50000km (27000nm) at ground targets is a tough invader.

Here is some additional interesting info.

Altitude:
The chinese have hit missiles at 150mi.
The space shuttles ranged from 190-385mi. (619km) in their various projects.
Nike had an altitude of about 11km
Patriot has an altitude of about 24km
US Development progression dates:
1984 First Hit-to-Kill Intercept of Missile in Space
1987 First Hit-to-Kill Intercept of a Tactical Ballistic Missile
1988 Designation of Army Space Command
1990 High Energy Laser Systems Test Facility Transferred to Command
1991 All Theater Missile Defense Transferred to Command
1997 First Lasing of Satellite by Ground-Based Laser
1999 Hit-to-Kill with Patriot & Terminal High Altitude Air Defense
2001 Computer Network Operations Mission Added
2002 High Altitude Proponent
2003 1stSpace Brigade and 100th Missile Defense Brigade (GMD) Activations
2008 Nanosatellite Development

Here is a nice perspective view of the orbits on wiki.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Orbitalaltitudes.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Comparison_satellite_navigation_orbits.svg

So if missiles we're 90,000 km and most weapons we're 4,000 to 45000km it would not be much of a contest. Patriot launches on incoming missiles might take out some of the initial hits from a Bombardment Cruiser.

Very useful information, but are we analyzing a conflict as Traveller would play it out or as it might occur in the real world?

Under Traveller, Earth already has missiles capable of engaging a ship in space; however, those missiles aren't going to bother any warships above TL13 unless it's slow, poorly armored and lacks a nuclear damper. Pirates and merchants we could take; a Zhodani cruiser we can't. We'd need, I'm thinking TL9 at a minimum to have any chance against a Zho, TL12 and meson spinals to have a chance against a TL15 Imperial.

In the Real World, we have the tech but nothing is built that could do the job; there's a world of difference between putting a hurt on a satellite and hurting something in orbit that sits behind several inches of futuristic armor. However, building and deploying something would not take terribly long assuming we discovered a need for such. Maybe six months design to production, more or less; maybe less if something scared us bad enough.

However, in the Real World, the Zho cruiser could not hope to hide behind superior electronics tech 'cause it puts out as much heat as a city, crammed into a volume the size of maybe a tall building. Hitting it's just a matter of getting something up there that's faster and more agile - and that can survive until it hits: that nuclear damper remains a daunting challenge, assuming one is possible. And, to be honest, if they want to hurt us, they can start from a lot farther out and just drop well-timed rocks on us - our ability to stop such a tactic is still pretty much all on the drawing boards, and most of that depends on the rock not being escorted to target by a hostile force.

And I can't agree on that stand-alone idea. We saw what stand-alone will get you when Yamato went out without air support on its last cruise. The whole purpose of a coordinated fleet is to cover weaknesses and promote strengths of the individual ships.

 

[savage]

stand alone

Yes. TL9 looks like the first defensive point. I believe if there we're a threat we could design a response (good or not) but we're not there yet.

And I can't agree on that stand-alone idea. We saw what stand-alone will get you when Yamato went out without air support on its last cruise. The whole purpose of a coordinated fleet is to cover weaknesses and promote strengths of the individual ships.

Clearly the Japanese had the same theory. Better to have lost her after a glorious battle career. But I suppose we're happy they didn't.

Of course, a coordinated fleet is needed for a real scenario. But strengths and weaknesses need to be evaluated and that is how it's done.