Jump Occlusion

[Magnus von Thornwood]

It is not gone.

Once a ship is gone, it's gone. Unless someone was 'out of it' enough to say that you can pull a ship light-years backwards by going to where it has already passed. If so, heavy shipping lanes near a planet will be total chaos as large freighters constantly pull back smaller ships.

The thing is that the ship isn't really gone and hasn't traveled at all. So, nothing is getting "pulled back" it never fully left.

As to the second thing, crowed lanes/jump points, that is exactly why you have to file a flight plan and get clearance to proceed.

 

[Vladika]

The thing is that the ship isn't really gone and hasn't traveled at all. So, nothing is getting "pulled back" it never fully left.

As to the second thing, crowed lanes/jump points, that is exactly why you have to file a flight plan and get clearance to proceed.

This makes no sense as I read T5, p321, 335 & 367-375. Please cite exactly where you find this argument? I'm not saying it isn't there, just that I'm not seeing it.

Also, if a ship "never fully left" then how is it stopped "100 diameters in front of" an occluding mass? Seriously, if it never left, how can it "arrive" partway through it's jump course and distance?

BTW This is a perfect example of why an INDEX is needed. Discussions of jump are in AT LEAST three separate places in T5, maybe more. An index and the ability to cross reference would be most helpful.

 

[Vladika]

May I suggest that these discussions on Jump be moved from this thread to a separate thread. I'm thinking a lot of people are going to miss this that would otherwise see it under it's own heading.

 

[cuTTer]

This makes no sense as I read T5, p321, 335 & 367-375. Please cite exactly where you find this argument? I'm not saying it isn't there, just that I'm not seeing it.

I concur. I searched the pdf for occlusion (pp.367, 374, 375) and blockage (pp.367, 374, 597, 603). I can find the description of a ship being forced out of jump when it encounters a 100 diameter sphere of a sufficient mass on it's jumpline, but nothing about it being sproinged back to it's point of departure hours or days after it has left.

It may have been discussed during the beta, looks like it didn't make the rulebook.

 

[Vladika]

That was the original draft version. Put your sphere intersecting with their jumpline, and 168 hours±17, out they Pop at 100 diameters of whatever they hit.. The final version is inspecific, but may be at time of entry only; One reference simply mentions any block, while another notes that being blocked at jump entrance results in misjump.

If blocking exit, and you know where they're going, then its mathematically trival. Put and keep yourself on a line between the system and them. If you can get and stay within the few km, then you can prevent them from jumping at all.

The "original draft version" means nothing. Where in T5 do you find anything to support this? Please cite specifically. As I read T5 you can interfere with the initial jump at the time of jump. Also, you can precipitate a ship out of jump 100 diameters IN FRONT OF the occluding mass. That certainly doesn't mean "it never left".

 

[Vladika]

But if I understood Aramis correctly, they don't have to block all possible paths, they just have to send a ship to approximately the point that the fleeing vessel actually jumped from - and they don't have to get there before the Jump, they have up to a week as they can "retro-block" after the fact and pull the fleeing ship back. Wasn't that what he said?

He said it, but he can't prove it.

 

[aramis]

The "original draft version" means nothing. Where in T5 do you find anything to support this? Please cite specifically. As I read T5 you can interfere with the initial jump at the time of jump. Also, you can precipitate a ship out of jump 100 diameters IN FRONT OF the occluding mass. That certainly doesn't mean "it never left".

Actually it does - it shows Marc's mind. In the draft of the Jump chapter, it was explicit that anything on the jumpline at all pulled you out.

Now, it's only bigger ships.

Also missing from the final (Thankfully) is the destruction of smaller objects within 100 diameters of the departing ship... Which made the departure by jump a great defense against boarding pods... or pirates.

From Release PDF....

Blockage and occlusion - p. 367

P. 368, RC, makes it clear that the jumpline can't go through anything or it's 100 diameter sphere.

P. 372, RC, makes it clear the exit is at 100 diameters of the 1st object which interfered with the jump course. The only way this makes sense is with the explicit wave collapse model, mentioned on...

p. 373, RC: the presence of a larger object in the departing ship's own jump field at initiation causes drive damage and failure to jump.

p. 374, RC: "The effect is similar to the wave function collapse in quantum mechanics." Which, if one is conversant at all with wave function collapse, means that until the function collapses, the particle has no discrete location at all, but could be anywhere the wave can propagate when it collapses, and until it collapses "is everywhere it could be." (Michio Kaku)

Logical extrapolation is that, if the jumpline is blocked at source, you pop out at source or displaced 100 diameters from the block. Since the time does not change for a jump shortened by a blocked jumpline, and it's a wave function collapse like occurrence, until exit, you exist at all points on the jumpline, until the 168±17 hour exit.

Note that the implications of the blocked jumpline text render inaccurate that nothing can detect a ship in jump and that nothing can affect a ship in jump; popping one out is a form of detection.

Problems even with the whole jumpline issue as released
I don't think Marc really has thought it through fully, tho...

The one throwaway to checking only at initiation (Which I can't even find now) means that the exit point could be inside a body.

Checking only at exit means you can be forced out willfully- for some, this is a benefit, but it means piracy will not be the smash-n-jump versions; any survivor, and the local monitor or cruiser pulls you back out. It also means that planets in your way at entry won't be there at exit, but others could.

Checking at both start and end time is the worst of both - plus it's logically inconsistent, to boot. Plus renders hop and skip much less useful.

Checking whole duration of course makes the most logical sense, but is still suboptimal. It makes pulling ships out easier, but it also means frequent jump courses require positive traffic control. Otherwise, an arriving capital ship pulls up to a week's traffic back out, fuel used, and having gone nowhere.

 

[pennshome723]

You know in my game I have always used the House Rule that for best practice an ship that jumps into or out of a system does so at a "jump point' that usually has a System Beacon in a orbit that is 2 orbits beyond the most distant orbit that has any native natuaral body within it. This way every ship must travel out to this Jump Point orbit first or they arrive safely there from any point and then travel into the system from that location. This cuts out most hazards. There are some other standards that shipping also follows as well , like distance away from the beacon for Jump Away points and same true for Jump Arrival points. These standards are followed by all shipping.

Works pretty good as a standard rule of thumb within my game and as a GM I enforce such standards for better and smoother game play. Regardless what any set of rules say, the GM has made a rulling and this is what my players will use and stick too. thus GMs make your own rulling and just play with it, you don't need a set of rules to define it for you if you don't want it to.

 

[Vladika]

Actually it does - it shows Marc's mind. In the draft of the Jump chapter, it was explicit that anything on the jumpline at all pulled you out.

Marc's mind? Great, then whatever I can't find in the T5 Mega-tome, I can read in Marc's mind! Aren't psionics great! :rofl:

Again, the draft chapter doesn't mean anything; it didn't make the final cut.

Now, it's only bigger ships.

Also missing from the final (Thankfully) is the destruction of smaller objects within 100 diameters of the departing ship... Which made the departure by jump a great defense against boarding pods... or pirates.

Operative word MISSING... Hello, calling Marc's mind...again...

From Release PDF....

Blockage and occlusion - p. 367

P. 368, RC, makes it clear that the jumpline can't go through anything or it's 100 diameter sphere.

Not true in the T5 book us mere mortals can purchase. Clearly says the jump line goes from point to point. What it does say is a large enough mass will cause the ship to fall out of jump at a particular point. That point being 100 diameters in front of the mass. NOT "back to the beginning".

P. 372, RC, makes it clear the exit is at 100 diameters of the 1st object which interfered with the jump course. The only way this makes sense is with the explicit wave collapse model, mentioned on...

I have no idea what's on the RC, T5 however is clear, and it's on page 374,

Blockage

The existence of a gravity source (larger than the ship in jump) on the ships course (at any point along the course, at the moment the jump begins) forces exit from jump at 100 Diameters in front of the object. The effect is similar to the wave function collapse in quantum mechanics. (Emphasis mine)

"The only way this makes sense is with the explicit wave collapse model..." Similar and explicit aren't the same things. My psionics aren't working today and Marc's mind isn't readable. T5 is.

p. 373, RC: the presence of a larger object in the departing ship's own jump field at initiation causes drive damage and failure to jump. (Emphasis mine)

True. No argument.

p. 374, RC: "The effect is similar to the wave function collapse in quantum mechanics." Which, if one is conversant at all with wave function collapse, means that until the function collapses, the particle has no discrete location at all, but could be anywhere the wave can propagate when it collapses, and until it collapses "is everywhere it could be." (Michio Kaku)

Quantum mechanics is, at this time, mostly theoretical.

Which, if one is conversant at all with wave function collapse...

Could you be a bit more condescending? I'm not sure I'm getting the full effect.​

BTW My first degree was in Civil Engineering. I have a son, son-in-law and a father-in-law with degrees in Mechanical Engineering. Two family members are with NASA, one an Engineer and the the other a Doctor of Physics. Another son holds a degree in Quantum Mechanics. Another relative a Physicist with RCA (Ret). Oh, and the "black sheep" with a Masters in Oceanography. The women in the family are Doctors and RNs. I'd say I have ready access to my own "think tank". (None of us came from a rich background. We worked our way through.)​

Logical extrapolation is that, if the jumpline is blocked at source, you pop out at source or displaced 100 diameters from the block. Since the time does not change for a jump shortened by a blocked jumpline, and it's a wave function collapse like occurrence, until exit, you exist at all points on the jumpline, until the 168±17 hour exit.

One extrapolation/interpretation. I keep reading that T5 is "playable" as is, so, how about we keep it as is?

Note that the implications of the blocked jumpline text render inaccurate that nothing can detect a ship in jump and that nothing can affect a ship in jump; popping one out is a form of detection.

Maybe. You can run into, or hit, something without detecting it. (I do agree with you that it makes little sense in the book context.)

Problems even with the whole jumpline issue as released

Agreed.

I don't think Marc really has thought it through fully, tho...

There is a lot Marc didn't think through.

The one throwaway to checking only at initiation (Which I can't even find now) means that the exit point could be inside a body.

The exit point of the "line of sight" jump line is, according to the book. However, you do exit 100 diameters out (according to the book).

Checking only at exit means you can be forced out willfully- for some, this is a benefit, but it means piracy will not be the smash-n-jump versions; any survivor, and the local monitor or cruiser pulls you back out. It also means that planets in your way at entry won't be there at exit, but others could.

If I understand you correctly, Scatter takes care of this, per T5.

Checking at both start and end time is the worst of both - plus it's logically inconsistent, to boot. Plus renders hop and skip much less useful.

Checking whole duration of course makes the most logical sense, but is still suboptimal. It makes pulling ships out easier, but it also means frequent jump courses require positive traffic control. Otherwise, an arriving capital ship pulls up to a week's traffic back out, fuel used, and having gone nowhere.

Marc's mind again and failure to think it through?

 

[whulorigan]

But if I understood Aramis correctly, they don't have to block all possible paths, they just have to send a ship to approximately the point that the fleeing vessel actually jumped from - and they don't have to get there before the Jump, they have up to a week as they can "retro-block" after the fact and pull the fleeing ship back. Wasn't that what he said?

Unless something has changed, I believe all of the parameters of the Jump are determined at the time of Jump transition, based upon the Astrogator's computation. So I do not believe moving another ship "into position" after the Jump has occurred will make any difference. Only the positional situation of objects along the jumpline at the moment the Jump is initiated.

 

[atpollard]

p. 374, RC: "The effect is similar to the wave function collapse in quantum mechanics." Which, if one is conversant at all with wave function collapse, means that until the function collapses, the particle has no discrete location at all, but could be anywhere the wave can propagate when it collapses, and until it collapses "is everywhere it could be." (Michio Kaku)

So if I am understanding this correctly, the ship 'leaves' point A, spends 168 hours stretched like a rubber band between Point A and Point B, and if nothing touches it, snaps to point B ... a normal jump. On the other hand, if anything 'disturbs' the rubber band at any point during those 168 hours, then the rubber band snaps to the point of disturbance and the ship exits at the point of disturbance ... whether that is the starting point, the desired ending point or anywhere in between.

Actually, it seems to me that this would make accidental misjumps back to the point of departure or to some point in the outer system of the destination world far more likely ... any asteroid crossing any point on your jump-line any time within the 168 hours ... any large freighter that crosses your jump-line ... any future departing ship that crosses your jump-line ... all snap you out of jumpspace somewhere other than your intended destination.

... And if this disturbance can happen anytime during that 168 hour window, then a ship/asteroid can cross your path 10 hours after your departure and be long gone when you exit jump at the point of the disturbance 158 hours later.

That certainly adds a level of complexity to the traffic control of a jump-lane. Your ship needs to reserve for it's exclusive use a cylinder of space 100 diameters wide between two star systems for 168 hours. Space being so darn big will help a lot, but a busy route between two worlds will need very specific lanes with well staggered departure times or some asteroid or bulk freighter will eventually cross a lane at some point with unintended consequences.

I don't know if that is good or bad, but it sure is different.

 

[Vladika]

So if I am understanding this correctly, the ship 'leaves' point A, spends 168 hours stretched like a rubber band between Point A and Point B, and if nothing touches it, snaps to point B ... a normal jump. On the other hand, if anything 'didturbs' the rubber band at any point during those 168 hours, then the rubber band snaps to the point of disturbance and the ship exits at the point of disturbance ... whether that is the starting point, the desired ending point or anywhere in between.

Actually, it seems to me that this would make accidental misjumps back to the point of departure or to some point in the outer system of the destination world far more likely ... any asteroid crossing any point on your jumpline any time within the 168 hours ... any large freighter that crosses your jumpline ... and future departing ship that crosses your jumpline ... all snap you out of jumpspace somewhere other than your intended destination.

... And if this disturbance can happen anytime during that 168 hour window, then a ship/asteroid can cross your path 10 hours after your departure and be long gone when you exit jump at the point of the disturbance 158 hours later.

That certainly adds a level of complexity to the traffic control of a jumplane. Your ship needs to reserve for it's exclusive use a cylinder of space 100 diameters wide between two star systems for 168 hours. Space being so darn big will help a lot, but a busy route between two worlds will need very specific lanes with well staggered departure times or some asteroid or bulk freighter will eventually cross a lane at some point with unintended consequences.

I don't know if that is good or bad, but it sure is different.

I guess that the Navigator/Astrogator does have a few little things to do and on his mind after all!

 

[HG_B]

Your ship needs to reserve for it's exclusive use a cylinder of space 100 diameters wide between two star systems for 168 hours. Space being so darn big will help a lot, but a busy route between two worlds will need very specific lanes with well staggered departure times or some asteroid or bulk freighter will eventually cross a lane at some point with unintended consequences.

Which isn't possible as the destination system has no idea as to what ships are incoming from where, what course and when. There being no FT jump communications.

 

[atpollard]

Which isn't possible as the destination system has no idea as to what ships are incoming from where, what course and when. There being no FT jump communications.

Actually, I think that it might be possible:

For low traffic systems, it is unnecessary.

For a high traffic pair of worlds, one could easily establish 'lanes' (like air traffic controllers use) between the two worlds with specific lanes reserved for incoming traffic and certain lanes reserved for outgoing traffic. Then the job of Traffic Control on World A is to keep all local traffic out of the 'arrival' lanes from World B and to stagger the use of each departure lane by more than 8 days. World B will do the same for its arrival and departure lanes.

Since things like asteroids can be tracked and predicted, certain lanes might have known blackout periods published years in advance as an asteroid passes through the lane.

It gives Traffic Control a real purpose and makes by-the-seat-of-your-pants jumps more reckless. Attempting a jump without clearance from Traffic Control, and precipitating back at the start point because a ship on a legitimate lane crossed your unauthorized path might have unpleasant consequences.

[Granted, planetary motion and the variable time factor for jumps will make this more complex and accidents will probably still happen, but it is better than an unregulated high traffic system.]

 

[HG_B]

Actually, I think that it might be possible:

For low traffic systems, it is unnecessary.

For a high traffic pair of worlds, one could easily establish 'lanes' (like air traffic controllers use) between the two worlds with specific lanes reserved for incoming traffic and certain lanes reserved for outgoing traffic.

Yes, I guess you could do that. NOW, exactly how accurate are jumps? Do ships always arrive EXACTLY where they aim? If not, we got problems.

Fascinating discussion though. Unfortunately the unedited doc that is T5 makes these threads necessary.

 

[Vladika]

Actually, I think that it might be possible:

For low traffic systems, it is unnecessary.

For a high traffic pair of worlds, one could easily establish 'lanes' (like air traffic controllers use) between the two worlds with specific lanes reserved for incoming traffic and certain lanes reserved for outgoing traffic. Then the job of Traffic Control on World A is to keep all local traffic out of the 'arrival' lanes from World B and to stagger the use of each departure lane by more than 8 days. World B will do the same for its arrival and departure lanes.

Since things like asteroids can be tracked and predicted, certain lanes might have known blackout periods published years in advance as an asteroid passes through the lane.

It gives Traffic Control a real purpose and makes by-the-seat-of-your-pants jumps more reckless. Attempting a jump without clearance from Traffic Control, and precipitating back at the start point because a ship on a legitimate lane crossed your unauthorized path might have unpleasant consequences.

[Granted, planetary motion and the variable time factor for jumps will make this more complex and accidents will probably still happen, but it is better than an unregulated high traffic system.]

Good theoretical example.

What about Core? One major traffic jamb there. With Jump anywhere from 1-9 parsecs these days, and the density of planets, coupled with the size of ships...

In the "old days" before T5, this might have worked. Then you could jump "tail to tail" every day and a half or so and never have to worry about another ship in that same space.

T5, according to aramis, has ships becoming as long as their jump number in parsecs and 100 diameters wide (for jump).

...has no discrete location at all, but could be anywhere the wave can propagate when it collapses, and until it collapses "is everywhere it could be." (Michio Kaku)

His version of how Quantum Mechanics works at any rate.

It's now "one at a time" or the little guy gets the shaft. Which is probably OK with the mega-corporations. :devil:

 

[HG_B]

T5, according to aramis, has ships becoming as long as their jump number in parsecs and 100 diameters wide (for jump).

​

His version of how Quantum Mechanics works at any rate.

Also, there is the problem that this "theory" doesn't work on anything like a large solid object. It is strictly a Quantum realm level theory. So meaningless for our example. A ship going to jump space isn't the same as an object going through a Star Trek transporter beam. Each atom and sub-atomic particle isn't converted to wave energy... o:

 

[McPerth]

[m;]Previous posts have been moved here from the thread T5-The Veredict.[/m;]

EDIT: I moved the posts I thought related to this thread (fortunately the topics were not merged in posts, TY all for that). As there were many such posts, if someone feels some post has been mover erroneously or that some othre post shuld too, please, PM me (quoting the specific post if posible). If the asking is prom the poster, it will be fixed, if not, the poster will be consulted.

 

[Vladika]

Schrödinger's cat

Also, there is the problem that this "theory" doesn't work on anything like a large solid object. It is strictly a Quantum realm level theory. So meaningless for our example. A ship going to jump space isn't the same as an object going through a Star Trek transporter beam. Each atom and sub-atomic particle isn't converted to wave energy... o:

Then there's "Schrödinger's cat" and the ongoing Quantum Mechanics "Is the cat dead or is the cat alive or is he both?"...:rofl:

In the world I live in a cat is either one or the other but not both...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_Cat#Relational_interpretation

If they remotely think a cat is alive and tossing the catnip bag around, or dead and rotting away, depending on who opens the box:

1) First
2) Second
3) At time same time
4) Not at all

Nobody is going to know where my spaceship is.

But then according to the "Many-worlds interpretation and consistent histories" argument, aramis has me trapped wherever I was a week ago and at the same time I'm on my merry way...to yet another trap? :rofl:

Yeah, sub atomic "non particles" have ever so much in common with 100dt - 1000kdt masses hurling through space. Or dead cats? Whatever.

 

[HG_B]

Then there's "Schrödinger's cat" and the ongoing Quantum Mechanics "Is the cat dead or is the cat alive or is he both?"...:rofl:

Schrödinger's starship: Did it jump or not?