I don't understand why no one has dropped a crash test dummy to test it. Too expensive? But NASA has burned billions of dollars on spacecraft safety. What's another unpteen dollars if it gives astronauts an escape option?
Hans
Jump troops
- Thread starter McPerth
- Start date
I don't understand why no one has dropped a crash test dummy to test it. Too expensive? But NASA has burned billions of dollars on spacecraft safety. What's another unpteen dollars if it gives astronauts an escape option?
Hans
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
NASA has burned a few hundred billion in spacecraft too...
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
With you on that one!
wouldn't want to be the first, but would like to have the option if the need should arise.
He was wrong. I just checked the rules, as well as the counters. Only one of the 46 is marked as jump troops. (Mind you, it's 14 counters; 8x 5str, 6x 1 str. And only one is marked as jump. And only MARKED jump troops get the bonus.)
Note that they are all grav-mobile.
Pretty much, the JTAS article on marines jives neither with the other canonical mentions outside the Lorenverse/GTU. Not all are BD troops. Not all are drop troops. Loren's marine article was a (rather ineptly) hyperbolic puff piece that is more the genesis of the 40K imperial marines than any of the canon portrayals.
Likewise, at least 2 of those 46 battalions are vehicular units... they can't be "drop troops"... but they could be (and canon implies they are) Mach 1 capable Trepidas... which puts them potentially through atmosphere in about 6-10 minutes (which is about how long a drop capsule takes).
Now, mind you, the marine units are specifically not the majority of the IMC, either- they have canonical assignments as ship's troops (not represented in FFW) and base defenders (again, not shown directly in FFW). But also, ship's troops and base defense are also not drop troops.
Yeah, but it'll be somebody's, count on it. In a world where people climb cliffs with their fingertips or run 26 miles for fun, there'll be someone somewhere that says, "I gotta try that!"
IE, the pre-planned invasion of Earth: IE Marines get the same advantages as marked jump troops, the key benefit being reduced vulnerability to damage from PD and SDB units while landing. FFW: Marines do not, and non-jump units may not land at all while SDBs are active (perhaps a lesson learned the hard way during the invasion of Earth, or perhaps they just took more chances in that war). Makes sense the Imperials would cherry-pick Marine units specific to the IE battle plan, whereas FFW represents whatever Marine units happened to be in the theater.
Given that the 6 FFW battalions of the 4518th are intended to represent that single unit, it's possible and even logical the other Marine regiments might have a dedicated jump battalion to serve the regiment's needs when the regiment is acting independently, but that would be no more significant to the regiment's overall performance than the presence of a single armored battalion in a regiment (which the Marine regiments likely also have if they're reasonably balanced to fight as an independent regiment). In a Striker-style game, the Marines acting as a regiment could send their jump troop battalion down to handle the specific missions best served by jump troops, but in a theater-wide war game, that would be complicated to emulate and the opportunities for the regiment to exploit such a rule would be too few to bother writing a special rule for it.
Of course, you could have some sort of house rule allowing a Marine unit to risk 20% of its strength that way.
I'm not so sure about that. What speed will those troops take, and what will be needed for burning up them? Remeber we're talking about combat armor or battledress equiped troops, and the speed and angle of entry in atmosphere could be calculated, like in the case of the drop capsules.
You understood my intent correctly.
The article does say that all Imperial marines are equipped with battledress. And the marines in the Luuru definitely are not all equipped with BDs nor BD trained. So that's certainly a discrepancy that would need resolving. (My own suggestion would be to say that the Luuru was part of the Duchy of Regina Navy and the marines weren't Imperial Marines, but there are other possibilities). But I don't see why the discrepancy should automatically be resolved in favor of the portrayal of the marine congingent of the Luuru rather than the dedicated article on the subject.
Be that as it may, I see no mention in the article that all marines are drop troops. Is it somehow implied in the organizatorial notes?
EDIT: Vladika has given me the reference to jump training on p. 42.
I get that you don't like Loren's article. But you're wilfully ignoring that it IS the canon portrayal. It's right there on p. 42-45 of JTAS#12. With 'Imperial Marine' spelled out in the headline. So if you want to refute it, you have to come up with OTHER canonical setting material that features Imperial Marines without BD training. Just repeating over and over that it doesn't conform to the other canon portrayals doesn't help. You need to provide quotes or references.
If they aren't hit by defensive fire, that is. Any rules that gives Trepidas the same stealth profile as a drop capsule?
The 'all marines are drop troops' bit was from what McPerth had told me. If he was mistaken, I'll take that ad notam.
Hans
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SpaceBadger
SOC-14 1K
One example of use is toward the end of Allen Steele's novel Orbital Decay, if anyone would like to read how he imagines it would work.
I agree. What use is an emergency system that has never been tested? Plus, as another poster noted, it might have saved some lives if they'd had these on Challenger.
No, that's good enough for me. I just missed it when I skimmed the article. That's why quotes or references are such a good thing in a debate.
(What skill do you get from jump training? BD? Imperial marine generation should automatically give a default of that skill.)
Note that this doesn't mean that all marine units are drop units. Marines are issued jump capsules (presumably the same as drop capsules?) if the mission warrants. If the mission doesn't warrant (if, for example, they have to ride in a vehicle) they don't get drop capsules.
Hans
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
The primary reason for a "drop capsule" is ablative armor for re-entry. If you're going to drop troops onto an objective from orbit, you certainly don't want them inserting into atmo at a speed that would preclude heating, so you give them a bubble to protect them.
Here is something else to consider on why using Drop pods might be effective;
You see 20 ships incoming that are troop carriers (each carrying 50+ troops)
Or
You see 1,000 drop pods incoming that are each carrying a BD trooper.
The visual of 1,000 drop pods incoming would (most likely) shake the morale of those on the ground, specially those who are not combat minded.
Dave Chase
You see 20 ships incoming that are troop carriers (each carrying 50+ troops)
Or
You see 1,000 drop pods incoming that are each carrying a BD trooper.
The visual of 1,000 drop pods incoming would (most likely) shake the morale of those on the ground, specially those who are not combat minded.
Dave Chase
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
And there is NO conflict between these statements!
In the real world, Marine ship's troops, supply, and aviation units are not considered "Marine Combat Infantry" (or "LINE") units, and personnel tracked into those fields do not receive advanced combat training like the infantry & artillery assigned personnel do.
Base defense force and embassy guard units are staffed with primarily infantry-trained personnel, but are not equipped or tasked for offensive combat missions.
The above units compose over 2/3 of Marine active-duty personnel, but do not reflect the training or equipment of the "line" Marine units... and there is no reason they should in Traveller.
Those Imperial Marines whose assignment is to combat units receive jump training and have jump capsules available... those whose assignment is elsewhere are not and do not.
I cannot find right now the rules of FFW, but, as Carlobrand says, in IE marines are all drop troops, as they do not endure the -3 modifier if fired when landing. Maybe this and the article quoted by Vladika confused me and made me think in FFW they are also counted as jump troops. If so, my apologies to anyone I confused too.
Would they burn without those bubbles? IIRC combat armor and battledress can endure quite high temperatures (over 1000 degrees Celsius), and the speed mounts up quite quickly once on free fall. In the article Cryton gave us the link it says he crossed the sound barrier in 40 seconds...
And the visual of those same 1000 troops in BD (plus decoys, you forgot about them) will be less scaring? And vehicles, IMHO, wil lalso be incoming to give those same troops support, probably also in free fall until quite low altitude, when they wil turn on their grav plates not to crash.
And a mixted solution is also posible. You enter in atmosphere with reentry vehicles (even shuttles) and troops jump from them at very high altitudes (just in the upper layers of atmosphere) and fall from there in their CA/BD, using thier grav belts to stop their fall just before crashing.
And don't forget not all planets that will be so assaulted have atmospheres...
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And in pages 43-44 it specifies that even its administrative and support personnel are all equiped as full combat troops, with BD and FGMP, only excepting medical personnel.
I guess Mr Wiseman was quite (too much?) influenced by Starship Troopers, both in this all work, all fight policy and in the use of drop capsules, that I still think have no advantages over grav belt HALO.
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I think it extremely likely that Loren was influenced by Starship Troopers when he wrote his article about the Imperial Marines, but I don't see why that should in any way void its canonicity. He was working for GDW when he wrote the original article and he was, what's the term, lead editor when Doug Berry wrote about the Imperial Marines in GT:Ground Forces. It is no less canonical than any other piece of material published in an official product.
Now, there may be reasons to suggest that some part of the article be reconsidered. I myself dislike one possible interpretation of one line in the article and one trope in GF (that all marines are equipped with battledresses and that 'when the marines arrive, the party is over'). But as long as 'being equipped' doesn't mean that every marine wear battledress for every assignment but just that there's a battledress with his name on it in the armory for every marine, I'm OK with the line, and as for the trope, well, I'll just have to make sure the marines don't arrive in any adventure I run.
So I'll repeat my argument that if jump capsules are still extant after 3000+ years of employment, they must have some advantages. Institutional inertia can only account for so much delay. The American General Staff was against replacing the Army's singleshot Springfields with repeating rifles on the grounds that it would only encourage the grunts to waste ammunition, but singleshot rifles did nevertheless get replaced fairly quickly.
I haven't dug out the writeup of jump capsules, but I vaguely recall that they have stealth capabilities that BDs don't and perhaps also protective value. But some advantage there must be, even if the rules do not reflect it.
Hans
