Languages in Traveller
- Thread starter Jame
- Start date
A couple of points. Galanglic is the 'common' language of interstellar society. That does not mean it is the primarry language of the imperium, rather that it is the one language that everyone can communicate to each other in. The closest modern example would be India, which has (IRRC) 70 official local languages, but anybody who is anybody in politics or business speaks english, and it is the language of government. All parlimentary business is done in english. In fact, most children of India's elite go to english language schools from a very young age because mastering english is essential for any type of significant success in Indian society.
Second is the issue of why english was chosen as the base communication language. My understanding is that it is based on english as the international air trafic control language. The assumtion is that this would continue into space. It is hard to change something like that once it is established, as once the institutional framework is in place, it takes at least a generation, and probably more than one, to change over to a new language, so even if another language becomes much more widely used internationally, the safty systems would still use english for some time into the future. As it is right now, if you want to do business globally(not just regionally) or if you want to be read academically, you have to work in english.
Having said all of that, there are some Traveller sources that imply or state directly that gallanclic is not widely spoken among the general population on many, if not most, of the world of the Imperium, so traveller may have significan dificulty communicating unassisted outside of the startown/spaceport area in many places.
Second is the issue of why english was chosen as the base communication language. My understanding is that it is based on english as the international air trafic control language. The assumtion is that this would continue into space. It is hard to change something like that once it is established, as once the institutional framework is in place, it takes at least a generation, and probably more than one, to change over to a new language, so even if another language becomes much more widely used internationally, the safty systems would still use english for some time into the future. As it is right now, if you want to do business globally(not just regionally) or if you want to be read academically, you have to work in english.
Having said all of that, there are some Traveller sources that imply or state directly that gallanclic is not widely spoken among the general population on many, if not most, of the world of the Imperium, so traveller may have significan dificulty communicating unassisted outside of the startown/spaceport area in many places.
marginaleye
SOC-12
Regardless of how powerful and influential the English-speaking Solomani may have been at the beginning of the Second Imperium, they were still vastly outnumbered by the almost infinitely more numerous, and far better-established, Vilani-speaking majority. Some form of Vilani (probably a stripped-down, easily-learned, and painfully un-poetic "pidgin-Vilani") had been the universal language of "space traffic control" for thousands and thousands of years, in thousands and thousands of different star systems. Regardless of how arrogant, energetic, and trigger-happy the conquering Solomani may have been, it's hard to believe that they successfully defeated the sheer inertia of that much linguistic history. After one too many tragic, preventable, and expensive accidents, racial pride would have taken a back seat to logistical necessity. I suspect that "pigin-Vilani" is still the language of the starports and space traffic control, albeit with quite a few recognizable English loan-words. (and, for similar reasons, the old Vilani weights and measures are still in use, not the metric system, which is just a historical curiosity outside of the Solomani Rim).
Regardless of how powerful and influential the English-speaking Solomani may have been at the beginning of the Second Imperium, they were still vastly outnumbered by the almost infinitely more numerous, and far better-established, Vilani-speaking majority. Some form of Vilani (probably a stripped-down, easily-learned, and painfully un-poetic "pidgin-Vilani") had been the universal language of "space traffic control" for thousands and thousands of years, in thousands and thousands of different star systems. Regardless of how arrogant, energetic, and trigger-happy the conquering Solomani may have been, it's hard to believe that they successfully defeated the sheer inertia of that much linguistic history. After one too many tragic, preventable, and expensive accidents, racial pride would have taken a back seat to logistical necessity. I suspect that "pigin-Vilani" is still the language of the starports and space traffic control, albeit with quite a few recognizable English loan-words. (and, for similar reasons, the old Vilani weights and measures are still in use, not the metric system, which is just a historical curiosity outside of the Solomani Rim). </font>[/QUOTE]A very good point. I think the question is who was the most powerful social faction at the end of the Long Night, when space travel was re-established as a standard part of human life. The indication is that it was the Solomani factions that retained power and it was the Solomani that formed the core of the 3Is founding elements, at least in the military. Vilani merchants families were important economically, but the Solomani dominated the Navy.
IMTU, I use both as common languages, with "Trade Vilani" (a simplified pidgin) as common as Galanglic, but Galanglic still being the official standard. YMMV.
Because I'm a nerd, I like to think about Anglic often. Seems to me that Anglic is going to be like an onion, with lots of layers or crusts (depending on how old that onion is, of course). The major idiomatic crusts I see in 3rd-Imperium (year 1100) Anglic IMTU sort of match the major events in the history of the TU, and go something like this:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Source Language Age of Idioms
------------------ -------------
'Plankwell' Anglic 400 y
'Zhunatsu' Sylean 1000 y
*** Insert Long Night Here! ***
'Ziru Sirka' Vilani 3200 y
'Confederation English' 3400 y
British English 3250 y
Middle English 3750 y
Old English 4250 y</pre>[/QUOTE]Looking at the Long Night, I'm sort of wondering if Sylean is Anglic-based; otherwise why would Anglic survive as The trade language of the Sylean Federation or Zhunatsu Corporation...
Are all those funky T4 world names supposed to be Sylean-derived, like 'Aapas Mi'? They don't quite look Vilani to me. But then, Sylean itself might be strongly influenced by Ziru Sirkaa Vilani too.
I suppose at any rate that Anglic is going to have the same core Anglo-Saxon it always had, only it'll sound more Vilanific, and probably have much of its Norman borrowings replaced with Gutter Vilani or whatever. So expect to see signs like:
Kipaapu dhigiraasu
"Keep-off the-grass"
But rather than
"Trespassers will be prosecuted"
you might instead see
"Niis gara binerii, shushishrug zerra binerii"
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Source Language Age of Idioms
------------------ -------------
'Plankwell' Anglic 400 y
'Zhunatsu' Sylean 1000 y
*** Insert Long Night Here! ***
'Ziru Sirka' Vilani 3200 y
'Confederation English' 3400 y
British English 3250 y
Middle English 3750 y
Old English 4250 y</pre>[/QUOTE]Looking at the Long Night, I'm sort of wondering if Sylean is Anglic-based; otherwise why would Anglic survive as The trade language of the Sylean Federation or Zhunatsu Corporation...
Are all those funky T4 world names supposed to be Sylean-derived, like 'Aapas Mi'? They don't quite look Vilani to me. But then, Sylean itself might be strongly influenced by Ziru Sirkaa Vilani too.
I suppose at any rate that Anglic is going to have the same core Anglo-Saxon it always had, only it'll sound more Vilanific, and probably have much of its Norman borrowings replaced with Gutter Vilani or whatever. So expect to see signs like:
Kipaapu dhigiraasu
"Keep-off the-grass"
But rather than
"Trespassers will be prosecuted"
you might instead see
"Niis gara binerii, shushishrug zerra binerii"
Some thoughts (i.e. another long-winded screed from theSea):
From Library Data:
I've always thought of Galanglic as the end result of a fusion of Trade Vilani and Old Anglic - much in the same way that Modern English is the fusion of Old English (*much* more like German or Norse) and Norman French that occurred post 1066AD.
In both cases you have an established population speaking one language (Saxons or Vilani) which has a foreign speaking nobility (Norman or Solomani) grafted on top of it. Incidentally, this explains why, when the animal is being tended in the field it is a cow (Germanic word), and when it is on the master's table it is beef (from the French).
The notion that the peoples of a region might adopt (or adapt, if you prefer) the language of their conquerors is not without historical precedence either.... witness the Celtic/Germanic peoples of Iberia and Gaul who adopted/adapted Latin and now speak French and Spanish... i.e. your basic bastardized Latin
Whether the 'modern' Galanglic of the 3I is a trade Vilani base with extensive Anglicization or an Anglic base with extensive Vilanification is anybody's guess. It doesn't really matter because in either event Galanglic would be significantly less comprehensible to you and me than Beowulf.
DGP's Vilani & Vargr describes the 3rd Imperium's "Vilani cultural region" (basically the restored Ziru Sirka area in MT) as being an area where most of the planetary inhabitants are culturally and linguistically Vilani. I'm sure one of the first things the restored Ziru Sirka did was to make Vilani their official language, displacing Galanglic.
I would also extrapolate a "Sylean cultural region" which would basically encompass the pre-year 0 boundaries of the Sylean federation where Sylean might be the native language of much of the planetary population... but one should also keep in mind that the Syleans were heavily influenced by the Solomani. Still, there's enough Old High Sylean kicking around for Lucan to demand that it be the only language spoken in his presence.
Old High Sylean is the language spoken by the dominant culture of the human minor race originating on Sylea - now called Capital.
DGP's Solomani & Aslan speaks of a plague which depopulated much of the rimward portion of the old Ziru Sirka - allowing it to be repopulated by Solomani. One can say what one wants about the canonicity of S&A but I find the notion that the Vilani - evolved from their safe germ-free biosphere - getting their collective arses handed to them by various Terran bugs to be very easy to accept.
Notice how many people in the US speak Native American derived tongues? But, in New England at least, many of the place names endure - if only in severely corrupted form. My state's name, Connecticut, is derived from the native word Quinnehtukqut meaning "place of the long river"
Also from both S&A and GT: Rim of Fire comes the notion that many planets in the rimward area of the 3I and much the Solomani sphere are inhabited by peoples who speak a variety of languages descended from non-Anglic Terran tongues. Esperance is a prime example of this - I'm sure the nation of Nuevo Argentina speaks a language very much like Espanol.
And yes, Jame - the whole English ==> Anglic ==> Galanglic progression is called into question by the fact that the Peoples Republic of China now has a manned space program, as opposed to, say, the United States. (That was MILD sarcasm people - no hate mail please!) Hopefully the US will get it's astro-fu back together once the PRC lands a few guys on the moon.
Ranger - I like the India metaphor - very apt!
Robject - you thought *you* were a nerd?
---Michael
BA English - Univ of Connecticut: I did not get it reading literature.
From Library Data:
So that's the OTU canon. YMMV
I've always thought of Galanglic as the end result of a fusion of Trade Vilani and Old Anglic - much in the same way that Modern English is the fusion of Old English (*much* more like German or Norse) and Norman French that occurred post 1066AD.
In both cases you have an established population speaking one language (Saxons or Vilani) which has a foreign speaking nobility (Norman or Solomani) grafted on top of it. Incidentally, this explains why, when the animal is being tended in the field it is a cow (Germanic word), and when it is on the master's table it is beef (from the French).
The notion that the peoples of a region might adopt (or adapt, if you prefer) the language of their conquerors is not without historical precedence either.... witness the Celtic/Germanic peoples of Iberia and Gaul who adopted/adapted Latin and now speak French and Spanish... i.e. your basic bastardized Latin
Whether the 'modern' Galanglic of the 3I is a trade Vilani base with extensive Anglicization or an Anglic base with extensive Vilanification is anybody's guess. It doesn't really matter because in either event Galanglic would be significantly less comprehensible to you and me than Beowulf.
DGP's Vilani & Vargr describes the 3rd Imperium's "Vilani cultural region" (basically the restored Ziru Sirka area in MT) as being an area where most of the planetary inhabitants are culturally and linguistically Vilani. I'm sure one of the first things the restored Ziru Sirka did was to make Vilani their official language, displacing Galanglic.
I would also extrapolate a "Sylean cultural region" which would basically encompass the pre-year 0 boundaries of the Sylean federation where Sylean might be the native language of much of the planetary population... but one should also keep in mind that the Syleans were heavily influenced by the Solomani. Still, there's enough Old High Sylean kicking around for Lucan to demand that it be the only language spoken in his presence.
Old High Sylean is the language spoken by the dominant culture of the human minor race originating on Sylea - now called Capital.
DGP's Solomani & Aslan speaks of a plague which depopulated much of the rimward portion of the old Ziru Sirka - allowing it to be repopulated by Solomani. One can say what one wants about the canonicity of S&A but I find the notion that the Vilani - evolved from their safe germ-free biosphere - getting their collective arses handed to them by various Terran bugs to be very easy to accept.
Notice how many people in the US speak Native American derived tongues? But, in New England at least, many of the place names endure - if only in severely corrupted form. My state's name, Connecticut, is derived from the native word Quinnehtukqut meaning "place of the long river"
Also from both S&A and GT: Rim of Fire comes the notion that many planets in the rimward area of the 3I and much the Solomani sphere are inhabited by peoples who speak a variety of languages descended from non-Anglic Terran tongues. Esperance is a prime example of this - I'm sure the nation of Nuevo Argentina speaks a language very much like Espanol.
And yes, Jame - the whole English ==> Anglic ==> Galanglic progression is called into question by the fact that the Peoples Republic of China now has a manned space program, as opposed to, say, the United States. (That was MILD sarcasm people - no hate mail please!) Hopefully the US will get it's astro-fu back together once the PRC lands a few guys on the moon.
Ranger - I like the India metaphor - very apt!
Robject - you thought *you* were a nerd?
---Michael
BA English - Univ of Connecticut: I did not get it reading literature.
jchurchill
SOC-12
. My state's name, Connecticut, is derived from the native word Quinnehtukqut meaning "place of the long river"
=================================================
And all this time I thought it was an Indian word meaning "Land of toilet hugging Yalies."
"Hopefully the US will get it's astro-fu back together once the PRC lands a few guys on the moon."
With a population of 1 billion the Chinese probably need the land more than we do. If they find a way to use it all the better for them. If we get the US electric transmission grid and the bridge and highway system brought to competent levels before 2006 maybe then we can tackle the moon. [additional but perhaps not so mild sarcasm]
"---Michael
BA English - Univ of Connecticut: I did not get it reading literature."
You have some deep seated grievance against literature?
IMTU the language of trade and the Imperial military is Pig Latin. Easy to learn and full of poetry. Contains all the elegance that an Imperial languange demands.
"Now amscray you little ussypays."
See?
=================================================
And all this time I thought it was an Indian word meaning "Land of toilet hugging Yalies."
"Hopefully the US will get it's astro-fu back together once the PRC lands a few guys on the moon."
With a population of 1 billion the Chinese probably need the land more than we do. If they find a way to use it all the better for them. If we get the US electric transmission grid and the bridge and highway system brought to competent levels before 2006 maybe then we can tackle the moon. [additional but perhaps not so mild sarcasm]
"---Michael
BA English - Univ of Connecticut: I did not get it reading literature."
You have some deep seated grievance against literature?
IMTU the language of trade and the Imperial military is Pig Latin. Easy to learn and full of poetry. Contains all the elegance that an Imperial languange demands.
"Now amscray you little ussypays."
See?
Agent--
One big problem with this country of late is that we seem to be incapable of playing the long game (witness the condition of our infrastructure - sacrificed to the gods of quaterly profits), a capability at which our neighbors in the east have excelled at for a long time.
Personally, I don't ever want to see my culture trying to win a rock fight from the bottom of a well - but that's just me.
"English is a language developed by Normans to pick up Saxon barmaids. It has not strayed far from its roots."
"English does not pick up loan words. It stalks them."
Of course I *do* wish they'd regularize the spelling. Whomever "they" are.
--michael
Who has buried too many relatives in the last six months.
I was suprised myself - I always thought it meant "land of ridiculous tax structures." Go figure.
Of course, if we'd pressed our early advantage we could easily have built a network of solar power satelites (for far less than the cost of invading Iraq *twice*) to satisfy our lust for energy and would now be holding the high ground in the struggle that's sure to come... but that would not have served certian entrenched interests nearly as well as the current status quo.
One big problem with this country of late is that we seem to be incapable of playing the long game (witness the condition of our infrastructure - sacrificed to the gods of quaterly profits), a capability at which our neighbors in the east have excelled at for a long time.
Personally, I don't ever want to see my culture trying to win a rock fight from the bottom of a well - but that's just me.
Nope - just a deep and abiding love of the rich history and syntax that is the English language...
"English is a language developed by Normans to pick up Saxon barmaids. It has not strayed far from its roots."
"English does not pick up loan words. It stalks them."
Of course I *do* wish they'd regularize the spelling. Whomever "they" are.
I tend to pray in pig latin: "Hey God - ixnay on the ethday!"
--michael
Who has buried too many relatives in the last six months.
jchurchill
SOC-12
I was suprised myself - I always thought it meant "land of ridiculous tax structures." Go figure.
=================================================
"Of course, if we'd pressed our early advantage we could easily have built a network of solar power satelites (for far less than the cost of invading Iraq *twice*) to satisfy our lust for energy and would now be holding the high ground in the struggle that's sure to come... but that would not have served certian entrenched interests nearly as well as the current status quo."
No, the Republic of Texas would never forgive you.
Personally, I don't ever want to see my culture trying to win a rock fight from the bottom of a well - but that's just me.
What little culture we have left to defend of course...
"English is a language developed by Normans to pick up Saxon barmaids. It has not strayed far
from its roots."
A source for this quoted gem?
Of course I *do* wish they'd regularize the spelling. Whomever "they" are.
The Internet has made sure that will never happen. "Loose" has now replaced "lose" so that one can "loose" one's mind and let loose all hell. Well, on second thought that is really a solecism but you know where we are going...
I tend to pray in pig latin: "Hey God - ixnay on the ethday!"
--michael
Who has buried too many relatives in the last six months.
My sympathy on the last six months for your family. To better days in the future and a "death holiday".....
=================================================
"Of course, if we'd pressed our early advantage we could easily have built a network of solar power satelites (for far less than the cost of invading Iraq *twice*) to satisfy our lust for energy and would now be holding the high ground in the struggle that's sure to come... but that would not have served certian entrenched interests nearly as well as the current status quo."
No, the Republic of Texas would never forgive you.
Personally, I don't ever want to see my culture trying to win a rock fight from the bottom of a well - but that's just me.
What little culture we have left to defend of course...
"English is a language developed by Normans to pick up Saxon barmaids. It has not strayed far
from its roots."
Of course I *do* wish they'd regularize the spelling. Whomever "they" are.
The Internet has made sure that will never happen. "Loose" has now replaced "lose" so that one can "loose" one's mind and let loose all hell. Well, on second thought that is really a solecism but you know where we are going...
I tend to pray in pig latin: "Hey God - ixnay on the ethday!"
--michael
Who has buried too many relatives in the last six months.
My sympathy on the last six months for your family. To better days in the future and a "death holiday".....
At a guess, any country that is a democracy and therefore whose policies have at best a five year lifespan, more likely three, will find it hard to play a game with a twenty, fifty, hundred, or two hundred year outlook. In this one particular, dictatorships (hopefully benign ones, and China probably doesn't meet this categorization...) have a much better ability to look far away. As much as the USA eschews nobility, kings, royals in general, the monarchy was another style of government which could take a long view - divine right and all that.
Democracy (esp if you have recalls!) is fraught with the potential of a leader being pulled down by those who voted him up a short time ago, so he'll govern for popularity, not principal, or he'll be out on his arse shortly thereafter. This is one of the downsides of democracy.
Of course, YMMV, OVW.
The benefits of a democracy can arguably be said to rise and fall with the leader. Getting one party into power can lead to a profound shift in the governments approach to fiscal policy, human rights, international relations, the military, and the law.
And as for dictatorships and monarchies being more volatile, I say that a stable monarchy is *less* volatile than a some democracies!
Note: As someone at the middle rank in the food chain, democracy suits me, but I'd probably do okay in an enlightened dictatorship too. The only problem is an englightened dictatorship sometimes becomes a nonenlightened one (Charismatic Dict -> Non Charism Dict, for instance). OTOH, democracy has shown that it can (witness current power level of Canadian PM) closely approximate a dictatorship.
And as for dictatorships and monarchies being more volatile, I say that a stable monarchy is *less* volatile than a some democracies!
Note: As someone at the middle rank in the food chain, democracy suits me, but I'd probably do okay in an enlightened dictatorship too. The only problem is an englightened dictatorship sometimes becomes a nonenlightened one (Charismatic Dict -> Non Charism Dict, for instance). OTOH, democracy has shown that it can (witness current power level of Canadian PM) closely approximate a dictatorship.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
"Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and goes through their pockets." - Eddy Peters
Madarin Dude
SOC-13
In my traveller universe the solimani use pictograms and speak a cobination of Chinese with some English and Japanese words thrown in for good measure. The latin alphabit is used often but the pictograms remain. Asian features are proof of solomani origin. The Vilani do't have that race and neither do the Zhodani.
Villani net sites ahve pictures of hot babes of the solomani rim; but I digress
Villani net sites ahve pictures of hot babes of the solomani rim; but I digress
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
There is one reason why you see, say Indians studying English, and air traffic control speaking the same language. Language is one of those things that suffer the "network effect"
If only you own a telephone, that ain't worth a whole lot. You could call yourself, but why do you need a telephone to do that? Yet the more folks that have phones, the more valuable, useful each phone is to each of its individual users.
Languages are like that. Which is why English is right now the "lingua Franca" of Earth. More people speak it a either a first or second language, and because they do, they can talk to more people, than those in any other language group.
If only you own a telephone, that ain't worth a whole lot. You could call yourself, but why do you need a telephone to do that? Yet the more folks that have phones, the more valuable, useful each phone is to each of its individual users.
Languages are like that. Which is why English is right now the "lingua Franca" of Earth. More people speak it a either a first or second language, and because they do, they can talk to more people, than those in any other language group.
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
And it's not just numbers.
There may be more numbers of people who speak... oh.. Mandarin Chinese.
But most corporate heads, goverment officials (all air traffic controllers), and... I think even the President sometimes refered to as the 'leader of the free world' all speak english.
There may be more numbers of people who speak... oh.. Mandarin Chinese.
But most corporate heads, goverment officials (all air traffic controllers), and... I think even the President sometimes refered to as the 'leader of the free world' all speak english.
Yow, there's lots of energy in this thread yet.
IMTU IMTU IMTU
Like the Mycenaean Greeks, the Solomani scooped up the remnants of the fallen 'Minoan Empire', adapted their writing system (Linear A -> Linear B et al), beefed up their vocabulary with all those administrative, technical, and nominative Minoan words, and proceeded to slide gracelessly into the Long Night.
Thus Anglic's core is Anglo-Saxon (hence the name), and retains its roots, but pronunciation and orthography has changed, plus it has imported Vilani and Sylean idiom, more or less according to stellar location.
For example, words that were used for planetary purposes but could be seen to have an interstellar component to them, such as "import", could become quaint or archaic. So the Vilani word for "import" (something like "dinnisha") would be borrowed into Anglic and the English word would pass into disuse.
("Now, when the English said 'import', they meant something like dinnisha, but being simple barbarians, they could only conceive of it on a local, planetary scale.")
One important thing I have decided, by the posts on this thread: the Vilani-derived alphabet is widely used, while the Latin alphabet is not commonly used.
IMTU IMTU IMTU
Like the Mycenaean Greeks, the Solomani scooped up the remnants of the fallen 'Minoan Empire', adapted their writing system (Linear A -> Linear B et al), beefed up their vocabulary with all those administrative, technical, and nominative Minoan words, and proceeded to slide gracelessly into the Long Night.
Thus Anglic's core is Anglo-Saxon (hence the name), and retains its roots, but pronunciation and orthography has changed, plus it has imported Vilani and Sylean idiom, more or less according to stellar location.
For example, words that were used for planetary purposes but could be seen to have an interstellar component to them, such as "import", could become quaint or archaic. So the Vilani word for "import" (something like "dinnisha") would be borrowed into Anglic and the English word would pass into disuse.
("Now, when the English said 'import', they meant something like dinnisha, but being simple barbarians, they could only conceive of it on a local, planetary scale.")
One important thing I have decided, by the posts on this thread: the Vilani-derived alphabet is widely used, while the Latin alphabet is not commonly used.
I've been cruising through what's left of the TLDL, and there's a lot of good material, but scattered throughout dozens and dozens of digests. Unless someone is maintaining a Vilani Language site, I'm thinking I ought to collate and gather Kenji's stuff together and put it up on Downport.com.
With apologies for the continued hijacking of this thread.....
This is one of the things that attracts me to the OTU and also something that I thought was well expressed in Niven and Pournelle's The Mote In Gods Eye. I think a constitutional Monarchy can be made to work - complete with hereditary nobility... so long as the rights of the Yeoman are fiercely protected, there is some mechanism for holding the nobility accountable and there is a path for the most talented and capable commoners to be elevated to the nobility.
I've recently come to the conclusion that a five year outlook in today's society is becoming increasingly rare - anyone who can see past the next quarter is a freakin' visionary these days <shudder>.
Definitely a tough time to be a crusty old Heinlienist libertarian.
As I see it, the fundamental conflict between East and West is and has always been individualism verses collectivism. Since neither side seems to be able to take a 'live and let live' policy towards the other it seems we are destined to struggle.
I also see an analogue of this struggle in the interstellar wars and ongoing cultural conflict between the 'traditionalist, concensus driven' Vilani and those Solomani 'Yanks in space' types. Note that while the Solomani seem to triumph in the Nth interstellar war, they also bite off far more than they can chew and the Rule of Man eventually falls into a thousand years of chaos. Archtypical - but you'll notice that the struggle continues well into the 3rd Imperium.
As a product of Western culture (and we *do* still have a culture - despite the best efforts of Jerry Springer, McDonalds, the RIAA and 'Reality Television' to the contrary) I find myself in favor of individualism - although I'm willing to leave collectivist societies alone so long as they leave us alone. I also realize that I'm in the minority on both sides in that respect. It seems a vast majority of my fellow humans have a deep seated need to see their point of view validated by universal adoption.
But if it comes down to a rockfight - I'd prefer my side be the ones standing at the top of the well. Heinlien said that mankind will go to the stars - but there is no guarentee that the language spoken there will be English. I beg no excuse for wanting the stars for me and mine.
I think Pournelle aptly sums up the problems with Democracy on his website:
--michael
Oh, I've been saying that for years... the problem arises in ensuring that the nobility maintains an understanding that their privaleges are paid for in responsibilities.
This is one of the things that attracts me to the OTU and also something that I thought was well expressed in Niven and Pournelle's The Mote In Gods Eye. I think a constitutional Monarchy can be made to work - complete with hereditary nobility... so long as the rights of the Yeoman are fiercely protected, there is some mechanism for holding the nobility accountable and there is a path for the most talented and capable commoners to be elevated to the nobility.
I've recently come to the conclusion that a five year outlook in today's society is becoming increasingly rare - anyone who can see past the next quarter is a freakin' visionary these days <shudder>.
Definitely a tough time to be a crusty old Heinlienist libertarian.
As I see it, the fundamental conflict between East and West is and has always been individualism verses collectivism. Since neither side seems to be able to take a 'live and let live' policy towards the other it seems we are destined to struggle.
I also see an analogue of this struggle in the interstellar wars and ongoing cultural conflict between the 'traditionalist, concensus driven' Vilani and those Solomani 'Yanks in space' types. Note that while the Solomani seem to triumph in the Nth interstellar war, they also bite off far more than they can chew and the Rule of Man eventually falls into a thousand years of chaos. Archtypical - but you'll notice that the struggle continues well into the 3rd Imperium.
As a product of Western culture (and we *do* still have a culture - despite the best efforts of Jerry Springer, McDonalds, the RIAA and 'Reality Television' to the contrary) I find myself in favor of individualism - although I'm willing to leave collectivist societies alone so long as they leave us alone. I also realize that I'm in the minority on both sides in that respect. It seems a vast majority of my fellow humans have a deep seated need to see their point of view validated by universal adoption.
But if it comes down to a rockfight - I'd prefer my side be the ones standing at the top of the well. Heinlien said that mankind will go to the stars - but there is no guarentee that the language spoken there will be English. I beg no excuse for wanting the stars for me and mine.
Which is why the U.S. founding fathers gave us a Republic - if we can keep it. (The Peoples Republic of) California is a prime example of both the upsides and downsides of 'pure' democracy. When The People vote themselves tax relief - tax relief they shall get, whatever the cost. When The People vote in term limitations for their representitives - term limits they shall get... and government by amatures for good or ill.
I think Pournelle aptly sums up the problems with Democracy on his website:
I've tried to keep this somewhat on topic - but if anyone feels the need to take it to PM or Random Static - that's cool too.
--michael
Since I'm the one who started all this, I should contribute a bit more. (Pauses, sighs.) Naetheless (Hey, Chaucer! Thanks for a word!), I do have a question. Now, I know that there "was" a Sylean Federation, and that there "is" a Sylea. But I did not know, at least conclusively, that Sylean was a language as such. What can you (generically, collectively, all together and forgive my ramble) tell me about it, and why, if 'twas the Federation language, how come it's not the major language?
Also, what is the RIAA?
Also, what is the RIAA?
