Languages in Traveller

[theSea]

Originally posted by Madarin Dude:
In my traveller universe the solimani use pictograms and speak a cobination of Chinese with some English and Japanese words thrown in for good measure. The latin alphabit is used often but the pictograms remain.

linguistically, probably a very realistic approach. Again - I'm convinced that the language of interstellar civilization will probably be dominated by the first to get there - witness the popularity of Spanish and Portugese in the New World. But I wouldn't discount the power of an ambitious johnny-come-lately either (he said in somewhat bastardized British).

I do think that some form of constructive writing system (like the latin alphabet) is eventually going to displace the ideographic systems (like Chinese) through sheer force of simplicity and flexability - in much the same way that the Arabic number system has pushed out the Roman in all but the most formalized usage. Spelling vagriencies aside - it's just much easier to learn and use some 26 characters to construct words than to learn several hundred unique pictographs.

In the OTU this probably would lead to the adoption of the Vilani alphabet as a palatable comprimise.

One of the things I thought was cool about Firefly was the way they snuck the Mandarin in here and there... and the more industrial settings were notably 'Asian-ised.'

I've always enjoyed Western Science Fiction that is smart enough to realize that Western Europeans are not the only players in the game.

Asian features are proof of solomani origin. The Vilani do't have that race and neither do the Zhodani.

Hmmmm... you're probably right on the Asian features - genetics being what it is and the numbers being what they are. We may yet see the complete extinction of non-brown eyes in the human population... long after I'm gone. But I doubt it will be that difficult to distinguish between *any* of the various major and minor human races - the genetic drift and evolutionary pressures will be much greater for populations that have been completely isolated in a different bioshpere for a hundred thousand plus years than any differences we've cooked up on Terra lately.

The distictions will be obvious.

Just my cr0.02 - your milage (kilometrage?) may, and should, vary.


--michael

 

[theSea]

Originally posted by Jame:
I know that there "was" a Sylean Federation, and that there "is" a Sylea. But I did not know, at least conclusively, that Sylean was a language as such. What can you (generically, collectively, all together and forgive my ramble) tell me about it, and why, if 'twas the Federation language, how come it's not the major language?

Nearest I can tell- the Sylean Federation was ruled by a heavily 'Solomani-ized' nobility dating back to the rule of man. Anglic would have been the language of court (much as French was for many many years), trade and diplomacy. This would not stop Sylean speaking peoples from migrating, settling and continuing to speak Sylean while doing so.

Although I don't have it yet, I think more information on this subject can be found in GT:Humaniti which has a section on Sylea. Also I seem to recall that the T4 sourcebook Milleaux 0 has more information in this regard.

Also, what is the RIAA?

The Recording Industry Artists Association - i.e. the band of thieves that has been ripping musicians off for decades and is now trying to defend their obsolete music distribution model by claiming to protect those self-same artists. But that's another topic thaat I'll gladly address in Random Static.

Respectfully,

--michael

 

[theSea]

Originally posted by Drakon:
Which is why English is right now the "lingua Franca" of Earth.

I have to suppress a giggle everytime I see a phrase like this - English being the <Latin phrase used to express the concept of a universal language using French as an example>. I'm sure it gives le ministère de la culture et de la communication apoplexy every time they see it.

 

[Whipsnade]

Gentlemen,

English is Earth's current lingua franca (I giggle too, theSea) for several reasons. Yes, the technical, scientific, and military ascendency of Anglophone peoples and nations has something to do with it, as does the number of previously Anglophone-ruled colonial regions who've adopted English as a common tongue; India, Nigeria, South Africa, etc.

However, IMHO, there are three other reasons that heavily tip the scales in English's favor:

- The 'hybrid' or 'mongrel' vigor of the English language.
- The lack of any official body legally mandated to rule on 'proper' English usage.
- The ease with which poorly spoken English is still understandable.

English is a super pidgin. Loan words from Latin to Hindu to Choctaw to Cantonese pepper it. The English vocabulary is always growing, changing, morphing to meet new needs and demands. English grows organically, unoffically, and instantly to meet the needs of its speakers.

It took the Academie Francais a decade to agree on the 'proper' French noun to describe 'CD-ROM'. English simply invented the word on the fly and its version is used worldwide, even in France despite what the doddering old footdraggers of The Academie would have. French isn't the only language saddled with this official baggage. A recent proposal to change German grammar caused a great outcry it that nation.

Lexicographers working with English are worried that they won't find all the English words and usages currently in practice while lexicographers in other languages are worried about determining what is 'proper' or 'correct'. That is one reason why English, and what ever it evolves into, will live on. English is being used, not dissected on a chalkboard or frozen in the amber of official academic scrutiny like some linguistic fossil.

English can be spoken poorly; or perhaps a better description would be spoken in a non-standard manner, and the meaning will still come across. Many languages are heavily tonal; China's various languages are an example, and anyone with hearing loss; like myself, will never become fluent enough to be fully understood. Other languages suffer from 'snobbishness'. Speak high school French in Quebec or Paris and you'll see what I mean. Speak Castillan Spanish in Mexico or Mexican Spanish in Madrid and you'll see the same reaction.

English is kudzu ( a Japanese loan word), that fast growing vine that overwhelms native vegatation. English lives and grows every day, on its own and not by the leave of some official body. English is accessible to the speakers of a hundred other tongues. They can find words in English they recognize and can speak it poorly with too much fear of snobbish reaction.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[robject]

Originally posted by theSea:
With apologies for the continued hijacking of this thread.....

I think a constitutional Monarchy can be made to work - complete with hereditary nobility... so long as the rights of the Yeoman are fiercely protected, there is some mechanism for holding the nobility accountable and there is a path for the most talented and capable commoners to be elevated to the nobility.

Assuming we can solve the problems that come with heredity. Does England currently work this way?

I recall that U.S. senators were originally chosen by the state governments, not by popular election. This was probably a Good Thing, and we probably ought to return to it.

I find myself in favor of individualism - although I'm willing to leave collectivist societies alone so long as they leave us alone.

I think this is a sentiment of many people.

 

[robject]

Okay, with the fuel of Mr. LEW and theSea, I'm interested in the kind of idiomatic expressions that could be borrowed into Anglic from Vilani. Of course there's all the interstellar relationships and high tech, but that's not all that will migrate in, eh wot?

What kind of concepts in Traveller could use a good loan word or phrase?

* Jumpspace
* a Jump-1 main
* Free-trading along a low-jump Main
* arriving at/crossing an X-boat route
* the misfortune of owning goods which are currently trading at an exceptionally low price
* the fortune of owning goods which are trading at a very high price
* a mercenary ticket of dubious value
* a world likely to imprison you for just being different

Note: the Vilani Lexicon implies that the jump drive has a rather dark, religious significance to the Vilani: the jump drive is ganiirii, whose roots could be related to /gan/ from /ganzir/, "[the] Eye, pit of the Underworld", and /irii/, "night".

 

[jchurchill]

I recall that U.S. senators were originally chosen by the state governments, not by popular election. This was probably a Good Thing, and we probably ought to return to it.
================================================
You are correct that prior to 1912 or so [I can't recall the exact date] US senators were chosen by the state governor but it tended to give one political party complete control over an entire state in an unhealthy way and by the 1890's the US senate was seen as a pawn of railroad and banking trusts. The general quality of US senator was probably not that much better than it was post 1912 or 1913.

The question is whether you want your Senators chosen by the great ignorant unwashed rabble or by a small select group of party hacks and dealmakers. Tough choice.

 

[robject]

As always, the solution to populism vs elitism is probably in a compromise, complete with checks and balances.

In Traveller, the compromise is membership in the Imperium, granting power to nobility, in exchange for protection, market access, and a proportional, collective representation in the Moot? In addition, most worlds probably have a pretty free hand in how they manage their affairs.

 

[theSea]

Originally posted by robject:
Okay, with the fuel of Mr. LEW and theSea, I'm interested in the kind of idiomatic expressions that could be borrowed into Anglic from Vilani.

Interesting thought to be sure....

* Jumpspace
* a Jump-1 main
* Free-trading along a low-jump Main
* the misfortune of owning goods which are currently trading at an exceptionally low price
* the fortune of owning goods which are trading at a very high price
* a mercenary ticket of dubious value

I like those - all concepts sure to be rooted in Vilani culture.

* a world likely to imprison you for just being different

Vilani being such dyed in the wool conformists - the word for this probably equates to 'normal.'

* arriving at/crossing an X-boat route

X Boats being a 3I concept - that's a questionable one. Arriving at/crossing a trade nexus of some kind would be more likey...

In fact they probably have an idiomatic expression for "world where two J1 mains meet or cross" which would either be a form of the name for the first such location, an archaic expression for 'meeting of two paths' or something weirdly idiomatic like our 'chokepoint.'

Vilani terms and loanwords would probably be standard in business and commerce. Everything from grey market words like "juice," "squeeze" and "grease" (note how these English words for bribe money are completely metaphoric), "kickback," "fence" etc. to organizational terms like "district manager," "second assistant vice president," and "board of directors." Heck the Vilani probably have different words for 'inflation caused by scarcity of goods' and 'inflation caused by by an overabundabnce of currency.'

Social terms like "consensus," "dissent" and "person who refuses to change his opinion when the group has decided otherwise" (i.e. misfit) would also tend to be adopted as they reflect ideas that would be particularly apt in Vilani.

Incidentally- I've wondered what the Vilani word for 'Gas Giant' is, since there doesn't seem to be one in the Vland system...

No doubt many Vilani cooking terms would have made their way into Anglic - but I would also think that Terran cusine would take the Vilani by storm... after all humans are built to enjoy Terran agricultural and meat products.... a far cry from whatever the Shugilli managed to adapt for human consumption. In fact, the Terrans may have conquered the Ziru Sirka through the power of a good marinara sauce alone

Just a little riffing... I'm sure others will pick up the theme.

 

[theSea]

Originally posted by secretagent:
The question is whether you want your Senators chosen by the great ignorant unwashed rabble or by a small select group of party hacks and dealmakers. Tough choice.

If I recall corretly - the original intent was that the Senate represent the States while the House was to represent the People.

Of course, this was a notion developed by the same group that spelled out a very explicit list of Federal powers and wrote to the effect that 'anything not mentioned here is the providence of the States.'

Once the power had shifted decisively away from the States and to the Federal government in the post Civil War era the populists had no troule getting that changed... I'm still trying to figure out how a Federal Appeals Court gained jurisdiction over a California Governor's election. If one reads the Constitution one would think that it should be regarded as a strictly internal matter to be settled by the California Supreme Court. But in a nation where growing a pot plant in one's back yard falls under the jurisdiction of inter-state commerce, I guess anything is possible.

obTrav - the Imperium says it does not interfere in the local affairs of member worlds except under certian conditions (mostly WMD) but is this really the case? Control over what crosses the XT line at the spaceport must give the local Imperial authorities termendous power over who rises, who falls, who wins the wars and who loses. Hold the right shipment of Tac missiles in customs for a few extra days and regeime change can be rather subltly accomplished.

--michael

 

[jchurchill]

If I recall corretly - the original intent was that the Senate represent the States while the House was to represent the People.
-------------------------------------------------
Absolutely.

Of course, this was a notion developed by the same group that spelled out a very explicit list of Federal powers and wrote to the effect that 'anything not mentioned here is the providence of the States.'
-----------------------------------------------
Well, yes but that group was noted for its waggish sense of humor. They were a little crocked on Madeira when they wrote this stuff.
Partying like it was 1799...

I'm still trying to figure out how a Federal Appeals Court gained jurisdiction over a California Governor's election.
-----------------------------------------------
Federal due process I'd guess ---I did not read the pleadings but that is my semi-educated guess.

If one reads the Constitution one would think that it should be regarded as a strictly internal matter to be settled by the California Supreme Court.
-------------------------------------------------
You have to stop reading the Constitution. It will only confuse matters...

But in a nation where growing a pot plant in one's back yard falls under the jurisdiction of inter-state commerce, I guess anything is possible.
------------------------------------------------
Because someday that pot may be sold in interstate commerce. There is a popular warhorse of a case in con. law textbooks called US v. Wicker [or Whicker...it's been 11 years since I had to read it] (1943) where a man growing wheat in his backyard to avoid food rationing ran afoul of the Commerce Clause. The more famous case is the Ollie's Barbeque case where the S. Ct. found that a barbeque place in Alabama could not discriminate racially because it was involved [not really] in interstate commerce.

obTrav - the Imperium says it does not interfere in the local affairs of member worlds except under certian conditions (mostly WMD) but is this really the case?
==============================================
No, of course not. As the Minisrty of INformation might say-- who are you going to beleive? Us or your own two eyes? [Unless you have more than two eyes]

Control over what crosses the XT line at the spaceport must give the local Imperial authorities termendous power over who rises, who falls, who wins the wars and who loses. Hold the right shipment of Tac missiles in customs for a few extra days and regeime change can be rather subltly accomplished.
================================================
I agree. Particularly troublesome local goverments can be dealt with in ways more subtle than A fleet arriving and Marines landing to seize GovernmentHouse. [Although that is a more direct method --- just ask Haiti,[1915] Nicaragua,[1920's] Honduras, [1930's] Lebanon [1965, 1983]

 

[robject]

OK, I've sifted the TLDL digests and cobbled some primitive HTML together.

The probably-latest version of the Vilani Lexicon, and perhaps the only copy on the Web, is linked off of the probably-latest version of the Vilani Grammar, also perhaps the only copy on the Web, at:

http://home.comcast.net/~downport/rules/Vilani_Grammar.html

Heck the Vilani probably have different words for 'inflation caused by scarcity of goods' and 'inflation caused by by an overabundabnce of currency.'

The Lexicon notes /dinnika/ for 'goods' and /puli/ for 'money', but doesn't have these larger terms you've postulated. But I agree that they ought to be there in some form! (And as a side note, Vilani roots are 1 and 2 syllables, so /dinnika/ is probably built on an older root).

Incidentally- I've wondered what the Vilani word for 'Gas Giant' is, since there doesn't seem to be one in the Vland system...

The Lexicon doesn't have one, but one could be cooked up. If the Vilani don't care much, it would be gas+planet, mikikasha (/miki/ + /kasha/), or some conflation of the two like 'mikisha' or even (gads) 'mikasa'.

No doubt many Vilani cooking terms would have made their way into Anglic...

The Lexicon lists lots of Vilani foods, none of which are known to us pre-interstellar Terrans. NOTE: I seem to remember significant commentary on the ubiquity and 'difficultness' of Argu, the Vilani tuber for all occasions.


spider-like pest, edible ugar
batlike creature, a species of_ garib
insect, pollinating erinne
insect, pollinating magiru
pig-like domestic animal shalap
animal, domestic meat-bearing_ ganisha
animal, large insectile_, produces edible fluid kamishgiirmu
animal, small edible_ niimrusha
animal, small furred egg-laying_ ramumi
animal, wild poisonous insectoid_ asushuun
animal, young male_ of domestic species amar
bird (esp. small; domestic?) ziga
bird, large, dangerous, fierce tree-nesting_ imdugud
bird, very large trainable_ of prey, native to Vland kankurur

dairy product, type of_ shum
sauce used in preparing arulangin
seafood; has pungent odor


plant, a type bearing irregularly shaped yellow fruit, iiri
grain, a fast-growing type of_ shesh
grain-like short grass, extremely fast-growing pumamri
grasslike plant, desert/dryland_ dikh
tree, a type of fruit-bearing_ misushik
tree, date-palm-like_ sulum/sulub
tree, palm-like_ nimbar
tree, type of giant shade-_ sarbaru
tree, willow-like_ khaluppu
tuber, dark green carrotlike_ ginasush
tuber, potato-like_ argu
tuber, producing clumps of small round brown roots karkiirim
vegetable, edible green-leafed_ kiimuu
vegetable, green-leafed_ lashirmii
vegetal additive to food fermentation process (secret) bappir

 

[theSea]

Originally posted by robject:
The probably-latest version of the Vilani Lexicon, and perhaps the only copy on the Web

Not the only one:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vilvocab.txt

But it's probaly darn close - I seem to recall it took more than a little google-fu to find that one...


Thanks for the grammar - I hadn't seen that. Does it address the tonal nature of Vilani?

 

[theSea]

Originally posted by secretagent:
Because someday that pot may be sold in interstate commerce.

Riiiight. And if my aunt were plumbed differently she'd be my uncle.

Although that is a more direct method --- just ask Haiti,[1915] Nicaragua,[1920's] Honduras, [1930's] Lebanon [1965, 1983]

Don't forget Grenada, Panama and Haiti in the 80's.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by theSea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by robject:
The probably-latest version of the Vilani Lexicon, and perhaps the only copy on the Web

Not the only one:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vilvocab.txt

But it's probaly darn close - I seem to recall it took more than a little google-fu to find that one...


Thanks for the grammar - I hadn't seen that. Does it address the tonal nature of Vilani? </font>[/QUOTE]In fact, that is the very same list I'm using for the Lexicon, taken from Rob's TLDL archive site. I will be adding to the lexicon based on the discussions we've all been having on this thread.

The vilvocab file has around 1500 entries. The threshold for a truly usable 'language' is supposedly around 3000 words, for some definition of 'word'. So there's still some maturing that needs to be done; however, I believe many new words can be coined and derived from the existing lexicon, by breaking roots out of words already there, finding new words from the forms of existing words, and conflating/appending roots together to form compound words or even new roots. Lots of room for growth.


The grammar is from all them digests in the same web area. I sifted through them and gathered together all of Kenji's postings into one big 'ol page and indexed it. There is mention of the use of tones in the sketch, though somewhat, erm, sketchy. There was a lot of discussion about it in the TLDL at the time. I never cared for tones, but that's okay, I won't be speaking Vilani.

 

[robject]

Thread Hijack

This is a call for words. After poring over those horribly-named worlds in Milieu Zero's Core sector, I finally bit the bullet and cobbled together a basic wordlist of Sylean terms, a proto-grammar, and a JavaScript Sylean Word Generator.

Now I need input from all of you who have had dealings with Syleans.

I've got a few nouns and verbs identified, but I've got a lot that I don't know the meaning of. Some help would be appreciated. Also, I'd like to expand the vocabulary with new submissions.

At this point, I need basic concepts. Common nouns and verbs. Stuff we say every day, such as "say" and "every day", and "stuff".

The proto-grammar and little lexicon are here:

http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/sylean.html


The Random Word Generator -- which is sort of messy but can occasionally produce a gem -- is here:

http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/sylgen4.html


Thanks for your support.

Here's a starting point: verb roots end in a vowel + 'h', and nouns end in 'n', 'r', or 'l'.

 

[sid6.7]

i found this is to an excellent lang maker
it will let you input some of those rules
and then generate a language based on that
it does have a few bugs but i use it all
the time...

it takes a few days and runs to get the hang
of it but it s neat...

it can also AGE your language and stuff
like that..so you can have it start out
one way...then morph over time to something
else...


i've made like 15 languages with it...
some with 3000 words....

it can then also take your words
and make names from it....

like:
fish
man

- fisherman

stone
wall

-stonewall

mine are pertty primitve in explanation though

i walked accross the street...

accross the street i walked....

just the 2 kinds of formats...plus
i made some have only some letters
but not others...or it always has double vowels
instead of double consanants...etc...

i made some with earth flavors
like spanish or french or swahili

i even have tried to revive old "dead"
languages...

its pertty fun...

the one i really am proud of is my "iniut"
language it really sounds quite similar to
iniut...

www.langmaker.com

 

[robject]

Thanks Sid, I'll check it out. I actually know that site, but didn't know they had software.

Er, which program on that site are you referring to?

 

[sid6.7]

oops sorry i forgot they had it buried pertty deep there:

http://www.langmaker.com/langmake/

if you have an email or something i can email
you a word list i modified to eliminate
some of the errors in the program...i got
rid of about 80%+ of the errors i noticed
anyways...there is probably a few i missed
and such...but i think i cleaned it up a hair