General Lanthan Traders?

[Spinward Flow]

using LBB2.81 standard drives, you're limited to A-K drives ... and K drives top out at code: 1 in a 2000 ton hull. That means that any J4 you can build at TL=11 is going to be 500 tons maximum displacement, which gets "kinda cramped" for revenue tonnage (cargo, passengers, etc.). Not impossible to make it work, but definitely very challenging from a starship design standpoint.

If I had to do this and my limitation was TL=11 and I was striving for an "intellectually honest" blending of LBB2.81 into LBB5.80 design rules ... what I personally would be reaching for is a 450 ton custom hull with J/J/K drives, yielding code: 4/4/4 but with a 2 EP surplus for the model/4 computer (which requires 2 EP under LBB5.80).

• 50 tons for Jump-J drive (code: 4 @ 450 tons)
• 17 tons for Maneuver-J drive (code: 4 @ 450 tons, Agility=4 costs -18 EP)
• 31 tons for Power Plant-K drive (code: 4 @ 450 tons, +20 EP)
• 220 tons for 4 parsecs @ 450 tons + 4 weeks endurance of fuel
• 7 tons for Fuel Purification Plant (TL=11)
• 20 tons for Bridge
• 4 tons for model/4 computer (-2 EP)

50+17+31+220+7+20+4 = 349
450-349 = 101 tons remaining for crew quarters, passenger staterooms/berths and cargo hold

gets "kinda cramped" for revenue tonnage (cargo, passengers, etc.).

You can "skimp" on the maneuver drive (a bit) if you want to, but doing so isn't going to rebate a huge amount of tonnage that can be put towards generating revenues.

Doing the same process again at TL=12 using M/M/N drives in a 600 ton custom hull, again yielding code: 4/4/4 performance with a 2 EP surplus for the model/4 computer, yields the following:

• 65 tons for Jump-M drive (code: 4 @ 600 tons)
• 23 tons for Maneuver-M drive (code: 4 @ 600 tons, Agility=4 costs -24 EP)
• 40 tons for Power Plant-N drive (code: 4 @ 600 tons, +26 EP)
• 280 tons for 4 parsecs @ 600 tons + 4 weeks endurance of fuel
• 6 tons for Fuel Purification Plant (TL=12)
• 20 tons for Bridge
• 4 tons for model/4 computer (-2 EP)

65+23+40+280+6+24 = 438
600-438 = 162 tons remaining for crew quarters, passenger staterooms/berths and cargo hold

---

My point with this napkin math for starship designing is that although it's possible to do a J4 merchant ship @ TL=11, you're REALLY going to be paying for it if you try it at TL=11.

Things get "slightly better" at TL=12 in terms of "revenue tonnage remaining" ... but that ship is going to be MIGHTY EXPENSIVE to construct and maintain ... enough so that it's very nearly impossible to turn a profit on ticket revenues alone. However, as a speculative goods tramp, if you're "working the advantageous location" (with multiple trade codes to pick and choose from) you're almost certain to be able to make the debts to revenues accounting balance out in your favor.

 

[TamsinP]

Are you sure about that ...?

Well, Maersk Lines are headquartered in Copenhagen and most of their current fleet have been built in South Korea, Japan and China. Celebrity Cruises are headquartered in Miami and all of their current fleet were built in Germany and France. So, if in the current world you have merchant and cruise lines buying ships from countries that can build them, why in the future would companies not be buying ships from systems which can build them.

D'Ganzio is TL=13 ... but it has a type B starport, so it can't build starships for private parties.
Good enough for maintenance, but new build construction with jump drives ... not so much.

That was in response to this sentence:

If you insist that maintenance has to be done at the A/B starport of a system with the correct TL, Lanth subsector has D'Ganzio at TL13.

Notice that I specified that D'Ganzio would be OK for maintenance and did not say that their ships could be built there. My next sentence, which you conveniently deleted from your quote of my post, was:

As for building, there are plenty of systems with class A starports that are Tl13-15 (and if you look back to the OP, Lanthan Traders were named as someone purchasing a Leviathan class merchant cruiser which would have been built at Glisten's Bilstein Yards).

A quick check of the adjacent subsectors shows that Lunion, Fulacin and Rhylanor are all capable of building TL13 J4 ships.

As for the economics of J4 ships, assuming this isn't for GURPS or Mongoose Traveller where freight and passenger rates increase with jump distance, then they can be profitable if purchased outright with no mortgage (something only larger, well established lines could really do).

 

[mike wightman]

Because Lanth/Lanth is TL=11.

Any LBB:1-3 A class starport can build any letter drive ship regardless of world TL, this has been thrashed out many times.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So, if in the current world you have merchant and cruise lines buying ships from countries that can build them, why in the future would companies not be buying ships from systems which can build them.

The "current world" that you reference has nigh instant communications, because it's a single world.
With nigh instant communication speeds, "where" you headquarter becomes something of a matter of convenience.

All of that changes as soon as you introduce communications lag into the commercial equation. That communications lag is going to impact the "agility" of your business operations in ways that simply do not apply in the "current world" of nigh instant telecommunications that you are citing.

To be even more specific, I'm not saying that it CAN'T be done ... but I am saying that an interstellar trading concern that needs to account for "jump lag" in its operations is going to have "a lot more operational friction" than a wet water fleet of ships on a single world with nigh instant telecommunications capacity and tracking capabilities. That (day to day) operational friction due to jump lag makes certain things that we take for granted impractical (if not impossible) to coordinate and manage.

Any LBB:1-3 A class starport can build any letter drive ship regardless of world TL, this has been thrashed out many times.

CAN it be done (at all) ... is a different question from can it be done on time and on budget without incurring additional logistics tail costs due to needing to import components that the local tech level cannot manufacture support. Less of a "can" and more of a "should" type of question.

I know that LBB2 starships get a LOT of handwavium poured in their direction, but this is one point that my own intellectual honesty objects to.

Kinorb/Regina/Spinward Marches has a type A starport and TL=5 in LBB A1.
According to your line of reasoning, there is NO REASON that an order for a Kinunir class TL=15 starship couldn't be built by the shipyard at Kinorb/Regina.
Where would they get the Z-drives needed to do that from? Rhylanor/Rhylanor is the only reasonable (TL=15) option ... which is a long way away from Kinorb/Regina.

Yeah. NO.

"But the RAW don't FORBID it!" (I hear some rules lawyer cry)

Maybe not ... but common sense and intellectual honesty SHOULD.

 

[mike wightman]

They import them, that's why trade lanes exist.

Every starport A in LBB:2 can build any letter drive ship regardless of world TL. The actual drives may well be produced at the TL15 powerhouses then exported to every starport A.

Evert starport A and B can conduct annual maintenance on any letter drive ship for exactly the same reason. They import the spares.

 

[Spinward Flow]

As for the economics of J4 ships, assuming this isn't for GURPS or Mongoose Traveller where freight and passenger rates increase with jump distance, then they can be profitable if purchased outright with no mortgage (something only larger, well established lines could really do).

Can they though?
To my way of thinking, outright purchase (so you don't have to pay for a mortgage) doesn't mean that the "investment cost" is zero. Over the 40 year (useful) lifespan of a starship, you need to generate revenues in excess of the construction cost, maintenance costs, crew salaries and other overhead expenses in order to turn a profit on the venture ... otherwise your Return On Investment (ROI) is going to be negative, which tends to lead to bankruptcy.

With a large enough business (see: megacorporation), it is perfectly possible to construct and operate starships at a loss because the business is making up the revenues elsewhere (see: speculative goods) that the starships are transporting. But if you're talking "tramp free trader" or other type of freelance small time operator, that kind of business model isn't going to work (by default, but can be made to work "with help" from a savvy operator).

Point being whether or not the starship "needs to pay for itself" in terms of direct revenues.
If it does ... J4 is going to be uneconomical on ticket revenues alone.
If it doesn't ... J4 can be quite lucrative for speculative goods arbitrage dealers.

As soon as you cross the J2 to J3 limit on range performance, the "name of the game" when it comes to chasing profits changes. It's a LOT EASIER to make profits on speculative goods arbitrage when you can "move product" rapidly to the most favorable markets to sell those goods into (based on differences in trade codes between buy and sell). Moving from the MCr0.1 per jump into the MCr1+ per jump range of profit potential can open up a LOT of opportunities for the profit minded merchant.

 

[TamsinP]

The "current world" that you reference has nigh instant communications, because it's a single world.
With nigh instant communication speeds, "where" you headquarter becomes something of a matter of convenience.

All of that changes as soon as you introduce communications lag into the commercial equation. That communications lag is going to impact the "agility" of your business operations in ways that simply do not apply in the "current world" of nigh instant telecommunications that you are citing.

Given that starships take a long time to build (just like in the current world), their purchase is a long-term strategic decision which doesn't require near-instant communication and isn't subject to short-term fluctuations in the market. Just like in the current world. 4-5 weeks to send an order from Lanth to Rhylanor via the X-boat network is reasonably quick compared to the time to build the ship.

To my way of thinking, outright purchase (so you don't have to pay for a mortgage) doesn't mean that the "investment cost" is zero. Over the 40 year (useful) lifespan of a starship, you need to generate revenues in excess of the construction cost, maintenance costs, crew salaries and other overhead expenses in order to turn a profit on the venture ... otherwise your Return On Investment (ROI) is going to be negative, which tends to lead to bankruptcy.

You are assuming that the useful life of a ship is the same as the duration of a typical ship mortgage. I believe that the useful life will be much longer than that, perhaps 80-100 years. For example, the venerable Lightning-class cruisers are still employed by the Imperial Navy, the IISS and some merchant lines; re-fitted (*cough* except for "Emissary" *cough*) over 100 years after their construction.

It does require a large (and old) enough line to have built up the necessary cash reserves to purchase ships outright, but when they do the ships operating costs are greatly reduced in the zero-inflation 3I as they don't have to make monthly mortgage payments which are the largest expense for most ships. Even if you account for depreciation over 40 years, that is still going to be half the cost of mortgage payments.

(/minor rant)As for the speculative trade rules in all versions of Traveller, the massive swings in profit/loss might make sense where pricing information is months or years out of date, but where most trade is with worlds where information is only a couple of weeks old it the swings are far too high.(/end minor rant)

 

[Commander Truestar]

I would simply point out that many BMW and Volvo cars are made in South Carolina...
BUT...Not a single vehicle "Engine" is made in South Carolina
Nor do they make vehicle transmissions there.

All those are made elsewhere and imported into the state, to be installed into vehicles "assembled" in that state

I find it surprising that some here take opposing positions.
-- In once class of posts, they say "you can't do that here" because that location's situation prevents it (ignoring trade entirely)
-- While, in other classes of post, they say "This must be available here because it's available next door", ignoring economic factors which would
block classes of trade.

All the arguments are very specific where single environmental situations are examined.....while that microscopic examination of one element
entirely ignores the other conditions in the location.

My answer is that you can't ignore a location might be dry because the water is 100 miles away, but you must also consider the ability to "truck in" water(IE: the blocking geography, ability to build "and maintain" transport systems, etc)

 

[kilemall]

Given that starships take a long time to build (just like in the current world), their purchase is a long-term strategic decision which doesn't require near-instant communication and isn't subject to short-term fluctuations in the market. Just like in the current world. 4-5 weeks to send an order from Lanth to Rhylanor via the X-boat network is reasonably quick compared to the time to build the ship.

(/minor rant)As for the speculative trade rules in all versions of Traveller, the massive swings in profit/loss might make sense where pricing information is months or years out of date, but where most trade is with worlds where information is only a couple of weeks old it the swings are far too high.(/end minor rant)

I have shown before that IND worlds have a very far profit reach especially with million credit per ton loads, doubly so with the original per jump payout. A stream of drives flowing out is definitely feasible, and de facto has to have the financial wherewithal to have all that supply in flight, which may explain why not every starport bootstraps to A class.

The increased build rate the larger the ship is would likely have the lead time built in for the river of drives coming to satisfy the order.

The speculative nature of the first to market tea clippers suggests a RL example of market demand advantage. Most of the time people don’t want that spot lot of ATVs- except right now.

 

[Grav_Moped]

As for the economics of J4 ships, assuming this isn't for GURPS or Mongoose Traveller where freight and passenger rates increase with jump distance, then they can be profitable if purchased outright with no mortgage (something only larger, well established lines could really do)

Or they can regularly haul specialized cargo that generates very high profits for their company (but might not do so for anyone else). If it's sufficiently profitable, the reduced carrying costs (having less capital tied up in in-transit material) might outweigh the increased transportation expense.

 

[Grav_Moped]

My answer is that you can't ignore a location might be dry because the water is 100 miles away, but you must also consider the ability to "truck in" water(IE: the blocking geography, ability to build "and maintain" transport systems, etc)

Fairbanks, AK, regularly had some of the costliest gasoline in the US (probably still does), despite having a refinery just a dozen miles out of town (North Pole, AK) that literally drew from the Alaska Pipeline.

The problem is that to undercut their prices, you'd need to truck (or send by rail) gasoline in from Anchorage.

And they only had competition from fuel barged up from the Lower 48....

Isolation makes a difference.

 

[AlHazred]

I will admit I didn't give my initial post too much thought. but in hindsight I can see a number of ways it could play out. I didn't specify where the initial purchase of equipment came from. Once the news of the strike hit the Regina Exchange, the business interests would probably have purchased locally, in bulk, and then hired a few adventurer-types to pilot them 3 jumps to Dinomn. Buying surplus ship in Regina should be pretty easy, and gives the possibility of higher tech levels than local shipbuilding can manage. Once the strike peters out, the investors have a shake up; some of them probably sell their shares at a loss, others double down and increase their investment to try to make it a success. Using this influx, and maybe the profits of the initial strike, they buy some larger vessels, probably also refurbished.

I imagine the corporate culture in Lanthan Traders is probably very lean, with lots of "corporate profits first and foremost" mentality; contrast to Oberlindes Lines' genial patronage of its owner. It's probably a high turnover company.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I imagine the corporate culture in Lanthan Traders is probably very lean, with lots of "corporate profits first and foremost" mentality

Gets even better when you look that the UWP population code for Lanth/Lanth ... which is 5.
Meaning there are less than 100,000 people permanently resident on planet.
That kind of "minor" population leads to a very "frontier" mentality of self-reliance, along with an appreciation for "living on the edge" of civilization (where you don't have nigh infinite resources at your beck and call). All of which ought to lead to more of a "scrappy" and "lean" mentality in the corporate culture.

 

[AlHazred]

Gets even better when you look that the UWP population code for Lanth/Lanth ... which is 5.
Meaning there are less than 100,000 people permanently resident on planet.
That kind of "minor" population leads to a very "frontier" mentality of self-reliance, along with an appreciation for "living on the edge" of civilization (where you don't have nigh infinite resources at your beck and call). All of which ought to lead to more of a "scrappy" and "lean" mentality in the corporate culture.

Listen, there's is absolutely a Gordon Gecko-equivalent in the Spinward Marches in 1100, probably promoting his best-selling book, Profits Over People: The Only Way to Live, now available for just Cr199 at General Products Depots across the Marches! I hear he's sold out the Regina Stadium at Cr5000 a seat for his next life-coaching lecture!

 

[FreeTrav]

TamsinP said:
Just because the company is headquartered on and has its homeport at Lanth/Lanth, it does not follow that all of their ships are built and have their annual maintenance done there.

Are you sure about that ...?

It definitely does not follow. Consider: Boeing, the aircraft manufacturer, is headquartered in Crystal City, VA, but their construction facilities are in Everett and Renton, WA, and Charleston, SC.

If you prefer to look at actual deep-water ship builders, Bollinger Shipyards LLC has thirteen shipbuilding or ship maintenance facilities, only one of which is co-located with its headquarters in Lockport, LA.

 

[kilemall]

It definitely does not follow. Consider: Boeing, the aircraft manufacturer, is headquartered in Crystal City, VA, but their construction facilities are in Everett and Renton, WA, and Charleston, SC.

If you prefer to look at actual deep-water ship builders, Bollinger Shipyards LLC has thirteen shipbuilding or ship maintenance facilities, only one of which is co-located with its headquarters in Lockport, LA.

Not to mention outsourced 737 hulls in Wichita and shipped by rail to Washington.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So ...
Context: Single Planet
Location(s): Single Country on that Single Planet

Therefore, if you scale up from single world to multi-world interstellar ...
Context: Single Subsector
Location(s): Single Mainworld in that Single Subsector

{ waits patiently for realization(s) to sink in }

 

[TamsinP]

So ...
Context: Single Planet
Location(s): Single Country on that Single Planet

Therefore, if you scale up from single world to multi-world interstellar ...
Context: Single Subsector
Location(s): Single Mainworld in that Single Subsector

{ waits patiently for realization(s) to sink in }

Or it could be:-

Context: Single Sector
Location(s): Single Subsector in that Sector

As you seem to be responding to the Boeing examples above, let me turn that back around on you. Boeing are headquartered and building the planes in the USA (location = single country) but will themselves be importing certain standard components from other countries; airlines headquartered in other countries are purchasing those planes and may be maintaining them in several other countries.

Now let's extrapolate that to the discussion about Lanthan Traders LIC, headquartered on Lanth. They are the equivalent, in this context, of the airlines. The shipyard at Rhylanor is the equivalent, in this context, of Boeing. Lanthan traders want to purchase a few J4 ships to cover the Lanth/Ghandi, Ghandi/Dinomn and D'Ganzio/Ivendo routes. None of the shipyards in the Lanth subsector can build them (if they aren't using standard drives; see earlier note on that from Mike), so they send a purchase order by X-boat to the shipyard at Rhylanor which can build them.

As for Lanthan Traders LIC, the J4 ships would be a relatively small segment of their fleet. Most of their fleet will be J1 operating on the main and a decent number of J2 ships. If they are also trading along the X-boat routes across the subsector borders, they'll need some J3 ships for the Equus/Rhylanor route and J4 ships for the Extolay/Denotam and Icetina/Fosey routes.

All that being said (OK, written), they'll find themselves in direct competition with the very well established Tukera Lines who are certainly operating on those routes already with ships built by their own shipyards (much cheaper than standard prices) and having centuries of working capital to add to their fleet without the need for mortgages.

 

[whartung]

All that being said (OK, written), they'll find themselves in direct competition with the very well established Tukera Lines who are certainly operating on those routes already with ships built by their own shipyards (much cheaper than standard prices) and having centuries of working capital to add to their fleet without the need for mortgages.

But if they have a better mousetrap, they have a better mousetrap. Not only does Tukera have centuries of working capital, they also, likely, have centuries of dead wood, ancient processes, and large, comfy sack of laurels to rest on. An up and coming scrappy Lanth company may well provide some currently niche service that is underserved by the monster conglomerates. IF (and its a big IF), there are Imperial rules to help maintain a level playing field in terms of the market, then if an opportunity arises, Lanth may be better suited at meeting that opportunity than someone like Tukera.

Sears didn't die in a day, but it did die selling to the same people that Walmart did.

 

[TamsinP]

Where they might be able to compete with Tukera is by offering a more frequent service, which would require more ships, which Tukera could easily counter with more ships of their own. The question is whether there are enough passengers and freight to justify a larger number of ships operating a regular service on the route. Alternatively (if Imperial trade rules permit it) they could offer passage and shipment at lower rates, but Tukera can more easily absorb reduced income from their reserves.

The only strategy by which Lanthan could overcome Tukera in a trade war is by resorting to the same sort of skullduggery as Oberlindes Line in the Aramis subsector (corrupting Tukera officials, sabotaging their ships, making false claims of Tukera destroying their ships when the ship has simply switched its transponder to another of its IDs and gone into temporary hiding on Pavanne, attacking other ships while broadcasting a Tukera ID...).