Large Ships and Spinal Mounts: What is the Point?

[BetterThanLife]

I will admit that my designs were inspried by conversations on making viable fighters, (Though it can be argued that 5000T is a bit large for a fighter.) David Weber's Honor Harrington series and the LACs, and the TA7 Seydlitz class Strike Monitor.

Back to the drawing board.

 

[BetterThanLife]

The new and Improved Harpy II.

Ship: Harpy II
Class: Harpy II
Type: Light Attack Craft
Architect: Bruce Hoins
Tech Level: 15
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">USP
LC-E106ZJ2-B50400-500J9-0 MCr 6,677.110 5 KTons
Bat Bear 5 A 11 Crew: 80
Bat 5 A 11 TL: 15

Cargo: 124.000 Fuel: 675.000 EP: 1,350.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 5
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: Z = 27
Architects Fee: MCr 66.771 Cost in Quantity: MCr 5,341.688</pre>[/QUOTE]Detailed Description

HULL
5,000.000 tons standard, 70,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
15 Officers, 65 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-27, 1,350.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 1 50-ton bay, 30 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-J), 1 50-ton Missile Bay (Factor-9), 20 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 10 Batteries (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
10 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-5), Nuclear Damper (Factor-4), Armoured Hull (Factor-11)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
675.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 14 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
44.0 Staterooms, 124.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 6,743.881 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 66.771), MCr 5,341.688 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
148 Weeks Singly, 118 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS: Only has 14 days endurance, but look what we did with the savings. And if it isn't using the Spinal then it can still cruise for virtually ever at lower power settings.

Though the Price did go up a little.

T20 version, slightly different approach.

T20 Starship Design Sheet Output

Harpy II - Harpy II Class Light Attack Craft
Designed by: Bruce Hoins

Statistics:
5,000-ton Hull (Needle/Wedge) - Streamlined
AC: 30 (17 vs. Meson Guns) AR: 15 (TL-15) SI: 350 Initiative: 6
Starship Size: Large Cost: 3,742.992 MCr (4,678.74 MCr without discount)
Model/9 Fib (PP: 65/14) Computer Avionics: Less than 10,000-ton Sensors: 2 Parsecs (passive survey) Communications: System Wide
Cargo: 107.0-tons Passengers:
Annual Maintenance = 374.299 KCr (187.15 KCr if routinely maintained)
Routine Maintenance = 93.575 KCr/Month (935.748 KCr per year)

Performance:
Acceleration: 6-G Agility: 6
Power Plant: TL-15 Fusion (1,752 EP output, enough fuel for 4 weeks)
Fuel Scoops, Fuel Purification Plant (TL-15, 5hrs per 800 tons of fuel)
Atmospheric Speeds: NOE = 1,175kph Cruising = 3,525kph Maximum = 4,700kph

Active Defenses:
Nuclear Dampers USP:9
Meson Screens USP:9

Weapons:
Hardpoints: 50
10x 2 Triple Turret Beam Laser Battery TL-15, +5 To Hit, 5d8 (20/x1), Range: 30,000km
5x 2 Triple Turret Sandcaster Battery TL-15, +5 AC, Ammo: 300 sand canisters
1x 50-ton Missile Bay TL-15, +9 To Hit, 9d6 (18/x1), Range: 90,000km, 50 missile Magazines, 200xHE missiles, 400x Nuke Missiles, 400x BPL Missiles.
Meson Gun Spinal Mount: TL-15, +18 To Hit, 16d20 (15/x10), Range: 75,000km

Accomodations & Fittings:
40x Double Occupancy Stateroom (80 People)
1x Airlock

Crew Details:
7x Command Officers, 3x Command Crew
0x Flight Officers, 0x Flight Crew
1x Gunnery Officers, 30x Gunnery Crew
2x Engineering Officers, 18x Engineering Crew
1x Medical Officers, 0x Medical Crew
15x Service Crew

Description:
This Craft is designed to act as a system Monitor or a Small Battlerider. In general a Standard TL15 Dispersed Structure Battle Tender carries 6 x 30Kton craft. For about the same cost 30 of these craft can be carried. To fill the same space 36 of these can be carried.
Cuttiing the missile magazine from 250 to 50 and loading out with 200 HE, 400 Nuke and 400BPL or other mix, the Spinal mount is able to be upgraded to factor 18 (J). The Price actually went down.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The Oz:
Here's an 8kton LAC that could possibly be better than either of our designs:
<snip>

I've just test fired 100 nukes at this thing.
42 of them hit.
8 of them penetrated the nuclear damper.
Fuel 1, 7 x Weapon 1 total damage. </font>[/QUOTE]Not to mention the repulsor bay and the sand and beam weapons (although they are considered to fire before the nuke damper).

 

[The Oz]

Bhoins:

To keep the text inside the "code" brackets from causing this 'spread-out' effect, I only put the USP section inside the "code" brackets and leave the Detailed Description in regular text. That way the Bat/Bat Bear numbers still line up but you don't end up with this "spread."

By the way, I like your Harpy II. A very good design.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Bhoins:

To keep the text inside the "code" brackets from causing this 'spread-out' effect, I only put the USP section inside the "code" brackets and leave the Detailed Description in regular text. That way the Bat/Bat Bear numbers still line up but you don't end up with this "spread."

Aaaaah!

Thanks.

By the way, I like your Harpy II. A very good design.

Thanks again. It is getting a little pricey, in the HG version anyway. But a single tender with 36 riders will still swamp a 6-8 ship Batron plus escorts in very short order. (And it is still cheaper, than 3 typical Drednaughts.)

Now if I could only find my 6x30Kton Battlerider, tender. (Dispersed Structure of course so it can still launch the entire wing at once.)

 

[The Oz]

I do note that if someone fired 100 factor-9 nukes at Bhoin's Harpy II, 42 would probably hit, his active defenses would stop none of them, his nuc damper would only stop a sixth, so about 35 would hit, giving (roughly) 3 hits stopped by the armor, 10 Fuel-1 hits, and 22 Weapon-1 hits, which would reduce the weapons to 4 laser batteries, one factor-3 missile battery, and a factor-D meson gun.

Not counting the radiation damage....

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by The Oz:
I do note that if someone fired 100 factor-9 nukes at Bhoin's Harpy II, 42 would probably hit, his active defenses would stop none of them, his nuc damper would only stop a sixth, so about 35 would hit, giving (roughly) 3 hits stopped by the armor, 10 Fuel-1 hits, and 22 Weapon-1 hits, which would reduce the weapons to 4 laser batteries, one factor-3 missile battery, and a factor-D meson gun.

Not counting the radiation damage....

Well, OK. But if you have 100 missle bays firing at the Harpy II, then I'll bet there are more than one Harpy II present.

The whole point of the Harpy II (and others of its ilk) is not to actually survive, per se. It is to put out more spinal mounts than the opponent can handle. So, while you are knocking out his Harpy IIs, he is causing all your ships to explode from the inside out.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Damn 100 factor 9 nukes and it is still in space? I said I was trying to draw capital ship fire but I definitely didn't expect one to survive that kind of fire.

The armor and nuclear damper are there to force the capital ships to engage. And hitting it with fighters and small escorts is supposed to be a definite exercise in futility. (Which it pretty much is.)

Since it is still in space shoot back!

Use that capacitor.

 

[BetterThanLife]

BTW how much damage did 36 Harpy IIs do to the two Plankwells that fired on that poor Harpy II?

And 36 (HG) Harpy IIs cost about 1.5 Plankwells., 1.4 Kokirraks and half a Tigress or a Small (4 ship) CruRon of Atlantics. (And 4 Atlantics can't, combined, fire 100 Factor 9 Missile bays in a turn.)

 

[mike wightman]

Against the Plankwell.
At long range:
20 of them hit;
14 of them penetrate the meson screen.
That's 140 Interior damage results, and 140 radiation hits.

At short range:
29 of them hit;
20 of them penetrate the meson screen.
That's 200 Interior damage results, and 200 radiation hits.

 

[mike wightman]

Against a Kokirrak.
At long range:
15 of them hit;
4 of them penetrate the meson screen.
That's 40 Interior damage results, and 40 radiation hits.

At short range:
25 of them hit;
7 of them penetrate the meson screen.
That's 70 Interior damage results, and 70 radiation hits.

 

[mike wightman]

Against a Tigress, which can fire 215 nukes at you
At long range:
15 of them hit;
6 of them penetrate the meson screen.
That's 60 Interior damage results, and 60 radiation hits.

At short range:
25 of them hit;
10 of them penetrate the meson screen.
That's 100 Interior damage results, and 100 radiation hits.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Now statistically my numbers came up a little lighter. But against an 8 ship Batron of Plankwells at long range each took 17 internal damage rolls and 17 radiation damage rolls. (And these are on the low end of the chart.) Unfortunately none of the missiles would get through so I guess those are getting aimed at escorts.

Against each Plankwells that yields, Statistically 2 Crits, Fuel Tanks shattered, Computer-5, Screens-9, Powerplant-4, crew-1 and either another Screens 2 or Crit. On the Radiation table, Crew-6, Weapon-8 and either another Weapon-3 or another Crit. Call it three crits total. Not bad for a long range high speed pass.

Probable losses among the Harpies in the first exchange, 12-18 write offs.

Without even rolling the crits, with a minus 7 on the Plankwell crews (crew factor-4), that means that the Plankwells are now dead in space and no more return fire is possible.

Even totally writing off the entire squadron of Harpy IIs that is MCr192301 vs MCr963952 or Personell wise, 2880 vs. 9304 and 180,000 Tons to 1,600,000 tons.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Against a Tigress, which can fire 215 nukes at you
At long range:
15 of them hit;
6 of them penetrate the meson screen.
That's 60 Interior damage results, and 60 radiation hits.

At short range:
25 of them hit;
10 of them penetrate the meson screen.
That's 100 Interior damage results, and 100 radiation hits.

So if I am willing to accept total losses, Because that is likely, a 36 ship squadron of Harpy IIs can kill 4 Tigresses in one pass? (Or roughly an 8-1 exchange ratio.)

 

[mike wightman]

You are remembering that every J class meson gun that hits causes 10 damage rolls internally and on the radiation chart?

I just used the percentages in LBB:0

Plankwell, agility 5, meson screen 3.

At long range a J meson needs a 4 + 5 - 2 = 7 to hit. 58% hit , 20 hits.

A J meson needs a 6 to penetrate the meson screen.
72% penetrate, 14 hits.

Each hit is 10 rolls on the damage charts.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
You are remembering that every J class meson gun that hits causes 10 damage rolls internally and on the radiation chart?
I just used the percentages in LBB:0

Plankwell, agility 5, meson screen 3.

At long range a J meson needs a 4 + 5 - 2 = 7 to hit. 58% hit , 20 hits.

A J meson needs a 6 to penetrate the meson screen.
72% penetrate, 14 hits.

Each hit is 10 rolls on the damage charts.

I thought a J was 9. Rats. Doesn't really matter though. It is just a little bit of overkill as is.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Now for the scary numbers.

In T20 a Harpy II destroys a Tigress 52.5% of the time. (Without using PMOS gunnery.) So a wing of 36 Harpy-IIs can expect to kill, outright, 18 capital ships in one firing pass.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
So if I am willing to accept total losses, Because that is likely, a 36 ship squadron of Harpy IIs can kill 4 Tigresses in one pass? (Or roughly an 8-1 exchange ratio.)

Send them half a squadron at a time, you never know when the other half of the Tigress Batron will turn up
Against a full Tigress Batron of eight I would send in 20-24.

 

[The Oz]

I was not pointing out that the Harpy II could not get a good exchange rate against capital ships; I was using the test Sigg had used earlier for my Razor-class and applying it to the Harpy II.

100 factor-9 nuclear missiles fired at a Razor-class will lightly damage it, reducing the meson gun by one factor, at most.

100 factor-9 nuclear missiles fired at a Harpy II's will mission-kill the Harpy II by removing all its weapons (don't forget the thirty or so Weapon-1 hits from the Radiation Damage table).

So the Razor is much more survivable than the Harpy II and yet costs less than twice as much.

And there's the resistance to meson gun fire. Harpy II's don't have a meson screen so they are more vulnerable to meson gun fire from the capital ships; admittedly not a lot more when facing capital ship meson guns.

So let's look at a comparision: 36 Harpy IIs or 18 Razors against 6 BBs. I estimate that either LAC will effectively kill one BB for every 12 LACs that fire (1 hit in 6 shots, then 1 of two hits penetrates defenses, and a good penetration is an effective kill, even with just a factor-J meson gun). The BBs will kill one Harpy II for every 12 meson gun shots (1 in 12 hits, and no effective defenses so a hit is a kill) and the missiles of the BBs will kill another Harpy II for every BB that fires. Against the Razors the BB meson guns kill one Razor for every 24 shots (1 hit in 12 shots, 1 of two hits penetrates) and the BB missiles kill one Razor for every 6 salvos of missiles (that would be enough hits to be sure of reducing the Razor's meson gun to where it can't penetrate a BB meson screen).

Results:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Time Harpy IIs Battleships
Start 36 6
Salvo1 30 3
Salvo2 27 0
Losses 9 6</pre>[/QUOTE]</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Time Razors Battleships
Start 18 6
Salvo1 17 5
Salvo2 16 4
Salvo3 15 3
Salvo4 15 2
Salvo5 14 1
Salvo6 14 0
Losses 4 6</pre>[/QUOTE]Thats MCr32,302.368 of Razors lost, and MCr48,075.192 of HarpyIIs lost, to kill the same number of battleships. And the Razors cost less to buy and need fewer tenders to carry them around, further reducing their overall cost.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by The Oz:
I was not pointing out that the Harpy II could not get a good exchange rate against capital ships; I was using the test Sigg had used earlier for my Razor-class and applying it to the Harpy II.

100 factor-9 nuclear missiles fired at a Razor-class will lightly damage it, reducing the meson gun by one factor, at most.

100 factor-9 nuclear missiles fired at a Harpy II's will mission-kill the Harpy II by removing all its weapons (don't forget the thirty or so Weapon-1 hits from the Radiation Damage table).

So the Razor is much more survivable than the Harpy II and yet costs less than twice as much.

And there's the resistance to meson gun fire. Harpy II's don't have a meson screen so they are more vulnerable to meson gun fire from the capital ships; admittedly not a lot more when facing capital ship meson guns.

So let's look at a comparision: 36 Harpy IIs or 18 Razors against 6 BBs. I estimate that either LAC will effectively kill one BB for every 12 LACs that fire (1 hit in 6 shots, then 1 of two hits penetrates defenses, and a good penetration is an effective kill, even with just a factor-J meson gun). The BBs will kill one Harpy II for every 12 meson gun shots (1 in 12 hits, and no effective defenses so a hit is a kill) and the missiles of the BBs will kill another Harpy II for every BB that fires. Against the Razors the BB meson guns kill one Razor for every 24 shots (1 hit in 12 shots, 1 of two hits penetrates) and the BB missiles kill one Razor for every 6 salvos of missiles (that would be enough hits to be sure of reducing the Razor's meson gun to where it can't penetrate a BB meson screen).

Results:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Time Harpy IIs Battleships
Start 36 6
Salvo1 30 3
Salvo2 27 0
Losses 9 6</pre>

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Time Razors Battleships
Start 18 6
Salvo1 17 5
Salvo2 16 4
Salvo3 15 3
Salvo4 15 2
Salvo5 14 1
Salvo6 14 0
Losses 4 6</pre>[/QUOTE]Thats MCr32,302.368 of Razors lost, and MCr48,075.192 of HarpyIIs lost, to kill the same number of battleships. And the Razors cost less to buy and need fewer tenders to carry them around, further reducing their overall cost. [/quote]What we have just proved is that fighters and Carriers in Traveller work. It just isn't the Traditional Single Seat or Dual Seat Fighter, the X-Wing, Viper or Star Fighter that is useful against Capital Ships.