Large Ships and Spinal Mounts: What is the Point?

[BetterThanLife]

I believe that if you switch to T20 the tables will get turned and the Harpy-II will prove to be the nastier customer. Because you can carry more of them. Individually they wouldn't be that much different.

I do see your point that the exchange ratio is better for the Razor over the Harpy, especially over a longer engagement. On a high speed single pass, with no more than 2 combat rounds of engagement, which is how I originally envisioned the Harpy being employed, the Harpy hits harder but takes some licks. In a longer fight, (which is virtually required by HG since you can't do a high speed pass) the Razor's advantages definitely start to show.

 

[The Oz]

Without any doubt the Harpy II is better under T20 rules; heck, as you've pointed out in here before a gunboat with a single meson =bay= is lethal to capital ships under T20. And high speed passes would reduce your exposure, especially to any escorts. The Razor deals with escorts mostly by ignoring them; they can't add enough missiles to make a real difference, given how many missiles your average BB carries.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Without any doubt the Harpy II is better under T20 rules; heck, as you've pointed out in here before a gunboat with a single meson =bay= is lethal to capital ships under T20. And high speed passes would reduce your exposure, especially to any escorts. The Razor deals with escorts mostly by ignoring them; they can't add enough missiles to make a real difference, given how many missiles your average BB carries.

One bay is good, three are lethal.

Almost as lethal as two Spinals. The odds aren't quite as good but they are damn close.

If you are using the High Guard charts with Mayday, the the High Speed pass would work.

The design concept was set up so the Tender would of course have a Black Globe generator, so it could jump in invisible to sensors on a nice drifting vector, full EMCON release the LACs, with a little minor low power maneuvering they could drift away from the Tender
and then all light up their drives from the outer system and come slashing through. Once the LACs have everyone's attention, and with that much redlined powerplant they are going to light up Neutrino Sensors but figuring out what they are might be a neat trick, because they have about half the power of a typical Light Cruiser but way too much power for a Destroyer, the Tender can change course for a preplanned rally point, still moving under max EMCON and stay out of the cross hairs. The LACs come slashing through, slingshot around a convient heavenly body and time braking for the Rally point. Especially if the Tender is accellerating away from the system long before the target fleet is engaged. They also make fine monitors and traditional though small Battleriders that was not the original design concept. I wanted to deliver the maximum damage over the minimum amount of time.

With two-three tenders you could catch a major task force and blow right through it leaving nothing but debris behind. (Ala the Battle of Midway.) Three tenders with full loads you are still talking about less than the price of a Batron and you are putting over 100 Spinals in the kill zone. For T20 I would probably task some Cruisers and Meson Bay Destroyers to cover the Tenders.

 

[The Oz]

And all of this (which is just exactly how the game rules say things are supposed to work) is why I like house rules that give the big ships more of a chance in combat.

The Oz
(unashamed big ship afficionado)

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by The Oz:
And all of this (which is just exactly how the game rules say things are supposed to work) is why I like house rules that give the big ships more of a chance in combat.

The Oz
(unashamed big ship afficionado)

But at the same time you can't make them too damage resistant, or the Fighter Jock goes away. As it is under any of the rule sets, the smallest fighter that is actually useful is in the 4KTon to 5Kton range. (Unless you mean useful in the Close Air Support (CAS) Role.) Yet the majority of Merchant shipping is in the <5000 Ton range. Because the economic trade tables don't let a 1000 Ton Merchant operate with full holds.

Though I too am a big ship afficionado. Albiet it with a Fighter Jock mentality.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by The Oz:
And all of this (which is just exactly how the game rules say things are supposed to work) is why I like house rules that give the big ships more of a chance in combat.

The Oz
(unashamed big ship afficionado)

And some of the best to have come up so far IMHO are:

allowing larger ships to treat spinal mounts as "turrets" and carry more such weapons. Basically, if the ship is 100 times larger than the weapon, the weapon can be carried as a "turret." So a 100kton BC can carry 1kton spinals as turrets, 200kton BBs can carry 2kton spinal "turrets," and a 500kton Tigress could carry 5kton factor-R spinals as "turrets." (yours I believe)

nuclear missiles damage as spinal mounts, e.g. a factor 9 nuke is the equivalent of an H class spinal PA for damage effects (mine)

meson screens as armour to reduce the number of hits from a small/medium meson gun - the big ones will still kill ships (yours again)

remove the +6DM on the damage table for all bay mounted weapons (has come up a few times)

scaling the number of hits needed to reduce jump drive, maneuver drive and power plant by one factor so that bigger ship's drives last longer than smaller ship's drives. As the rules are currently written, one hit reduces a drive by one factor, regardless of how big that drive might actually be (mine)

internal armour to reduce the number of meson hits (RainofSteel?)

 

[BetterThanLife]

One other quick point. Traveller unlike the real world makes big ships virtually immune to small, fighter sized craft. While T20 makes them more vulnerable to certain designs of Destroyers, the big ships can virtually ignore most ships under 5000 tons and all ships under 1000 tons, unless there are literally thousands of them. T20 makes the Meson Gun the Traveller equivalent to the Torpedo. Anything big enough to carry one can sink a big ship.

The Harpy class LACs are the Traveller equivalent of the PT Boat or MTB, before the advent of Air Power. Matter of fact you could build, theoretically at least, a 1200-1500 ton SDB around a Meson bay and while it would be even more fragile than the Harpy II it would also have a shot at doing serious harm to a battle fleet in quantity. (At least in T20.)

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Though I too am a big ship afficionado. Albiet it with a Fighter Jock mentality.

^ Now, I would have never suspected you of such heresy!

I am a fighter/gunship/corvette kinda guy too. I really like your riders too and think I will use them liberally. The way I see it, small combatants make it easier to give your players an active role in YTU history instead of have them bring the admiral his coffee and message traffic.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Though I too am a big ship afficionado. Albiet it with a Fighter Jock mentality.

^ Now, I would have never suspected you of such heresy!

I am a fighter/gunship/corvette kinda guy too. I really like your riders too and think I will use them liberally. The way I see it, small combatants make it easier to give your players an active role in YTU history instead of have them bring the admiral his coffee and message traffic. </font>[/QUOTE]The Corvettes and fighters do have their places in the OTU they just aren't fleet action craft and if they ever run into a Fleet element, like a Cruiser then they simply die. The Harpy still has a crew too big for most PC parties. Hell it is to big for most PC parties to fill all the key roles.

Of course if the PC is the Admiral, then the rules change.

James McLachlan, Duke of Glisten, Count Mertractor, Marquis Glisten, Marquis Pax Rulin, Knight Commander of His Imperial Majesty's Own Guard, SEH, MCG, MCUF, (Multiple awards) Grand Admiral of the Marches (Retired). (Terms served Naval Academy +7 (Yes the last term was "needs of the service") (7879CF))

When I rolled that character the Referee and I sat down and looked at it, and realizing what I had rolled, were torn between him just taking it or building a campaign around it. (The latter was chosen.) Which is why he became Duke of Glisten. Someone with that kind of experience needs to be on a border and needs to build a Navy.

Which is why I have always taken a serious interest in Naval action, Naval Budgets, and Starship construction in Traveller. One of my earliest characters and definitely one of my favorite campaigns. (Primarily because it was both different and well run.)

 

[The Oz]

Sigg: you forgot a couple of house rules....

1. (mine) Allowing larger ships to treat spinal mounts as "turrets" and carry more such weapons. Basically, if the ship is 100 times larger than the weapon, the weapon can be carried as a "turret." So a 100kton BC can carry 1kton spinals as turrets, 200kton BBs can carry 2kton spinal "turrets," and a 500kton Tigress could carry 5kton factor-R spinals as "turrets."

2. (yours) Scaling the number of hits needed to reduce jump drive, maneuver drive and power plant by one factor so that bigger ship's drives last longer than smaller ship's drives. As the rules are currently written, one hit reduces a drive by one factor, regardless of how big that drive might actually be.

Ran, Bhoins:

I like fighters too, which is why I like rules for grouping them into squadrons and wings, and I also like "visual attack" rules to give them a chance against the bigger computers the big ships carry.

The combat "feel" I want is where big ships smash at each other, doing large amounts of damage quickly but still giving a chance for a heavily damaged ship to withdraw, while swarms of small craft weaken the big guys or, even better, bring down the cripples trying to run.

 

[mike wightman]

Well remembered, I've edited accordingly

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Is there a TL 13 5,000 Ton designed ship with a Spinal mount that could do a similar job as the Harpy? I don't have access to an extensive shipyard and find nothing in the 101 ship designs LBB.

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
The Corvettes and fighters do have their places in the OTU they just aren't fleet action craft and if they ever run into a Fleet element, like a Cruiser then they simply die. The Harpy still has a crew too big for most PC parties. Hell it is to big for most PC parties to fill all the key roles.

IMTU, my players respond to the presence of an Imperial cruiser by running silent and seeking cover to mask their jump out of the system. Both I and them agree with you; attacking one with a small combatant is out of the question and best left to other capitol ships.

I did allow them to kill off one pesky patrol cruiser though, but only at great risk to themselves. They led it into the upper regions of a gas giant where they "depth charged" it with an ablative drop box full of several tons of liquid hydrogen with a nuke warhead strapped to the side. For the sake of dramatics, I allowed the shock wave to cause the cruiser to lose power and plummet into the depths while the players attempted to ride the wave out of the atmosphere. (hey, it makes for a cool story and ENTERPRISE stole it from me, not the other way around).

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by cweiskircher:
Is there a TL 13 5,000 Ton designed ship with a Spinal mount that could do a similar job as the Harpy? I don't have access to an extensive shipyard and find nothing in the 101 ship designs LBB.

The Seydlitz Class 5000 Ton, Strike Monitor is TL-13 and in TA7. It is one of the inspirations for the Harpy. SO it works fine in T20.

What version of Traveller are you using. I am sure that between us we can put one together for you.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
The Corvettes and fighters do have their places in the OTU they just aren't fleet action craft and if they ever run into a Fleet element, like a Cruiser then they simply die. The Harpy still has a crew too big for most PC parties. Hell it is to big for most PC parties to fill all the key roles.

IMTU, my players respond to the presence of an Imperial cruiser by running silent and seeking cover to mask their jump out of the system. Both I and them agree with you; attacking one with a small combatant is out of the question and best left to other capitol ships.

I did allow them to kill off one pesky patrol cruiser though, but only at great risk to themselves. They led it into the upper regions of a gas giant where they "depth charged" it with an ablative drop box full of several tons of liquid hydrogen with a nuke warhead strapped to the side. For the sake of dramatics, I allowed the shock wave to cause the cruiser to lose power and plummet into the depths while the players attempted to ride the wave out of the atmosphere. (hey, it makes for a cool story and ENTERPRISE stole it from me, not the other way around). </font>[/QUOTE]In your Traveller Universe what is the Type-T? IMTU it is the Type-T Patrol Corvette.

I have allowed a Party of Players to take out a Cruiser. But it was at the high port and they did use some serious demolition rolls. (I hate it when the walls of the magazine are breached right before the magazine goes up.)

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
In your Traveller Universe what is the Type-T? IMTU it is the Type-T Patrol Corvette.

I agree, the Type T is a corvette at most.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by cweiskircher:
Is there a TL 13 5,000 Ton designed ship with a Spinal mount that could do a similar job as the Harpy? I don't have access to an extensive shipyard and find nothing in the 101 ship designs LBB.

The Seydlitz Class 5000 Ton, Strike Monitor is TL-13 and in TA7. It is one of the inspirations for the Harpy. SO it works fine in T20.

What version of Traveller are you using. I am sure that between us we can put one together for you.

</font>[/QUOTE]I have the LBB 2 and the TNE book. Perhaps I should get a copy of FFS?

Nothing worth having will be easy to build.

I appreciate all the help I can get.

 

[Border Reiver]

How big is a frigate then? And the Broadsword & Kinunir are hardly cruisers either compared to the 50kton monsters IMTU. Quite frankly definitions are a subjective matter. If the manufacturers of the type T wish to market it as a cruiser so be it and if the navy that buy it wish to classify it as a corvette, custom sloop, starfighter or whatever then fair enough.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
As it is under any of the rule sets, the smallest fighter that is actually useful is in the 4KTon to 5Kton range.

This is not true. 1000-1999 ton missile boats rock under High Guard. They're even useful at TL15, once you start competing to build the smallest, cheapest, (most vulnerable) Meson boat.

Yet the majority of Merchant shipping is in the <5000 Ton range. Because the economic trade tables don't let a 1000 Ton Merchant operate with full holds.

Use GT: Far Trader.

While it's true that the majority of merchant ships are small, it's pretty well certain that the overwhelming majority of passengers and tons of cargo are transported on the larger ships.

In fact, they are the real merchant ships. The rest are hobbyists.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Border Reiver:
How big is a frigate then? And the Broadsword & Kinunir are hardly cruisers either compared to the 50kton monsters IMTU. Quite frankly definitions are a subjective matter. If the manufacturers of the type T wish to market it as a cruiser so be it and if the navy that buy it wish to classify it as a corvette, custom sloop, starfighter or whatever then fair enough.

This nomenclature dates back to the Mayday and LBB2 small ship paridigm, pre High Guard.

In Mayday there is a 400t Destroyer, and an 800t Colonial Cruiser.

CT increased the size a bit, with the 800 mercenary Cruiser, and the 1200t Colonial Cruiser.