Lasers & Energy Weapons (hand-held)

[Shadowfax]

Once again, just interested in people's opinions, ideas, inputs, criticisms etc. here:

So what do you think about lasers (carbines, rifles & pistols are meant here) - do they fire a pulse (bolt) or are they a beam?

I always figured that they were a pulse (bolt), because a beam would take a lot of energy and that probably wouldn't be possible. At least, it would be hard to sustain a beam in the tech 8 version. A focused beam would mean you would run out of charge way too fast right? I also, figured these hand-held lasers fired bolts, because if lasers were a beam they would have had to have given it a significant auto-fire bonus in the combat tables.

I realize that there are beam lasers on starship's, but there you have the ship's fusion reactor power plant to provide all the power you need for a beam.

I remember reading (I think it was in a Journal article) that when a laser hits its target it transfers the equivalent of one stick of tnt in kinetic energy to its target. Ouch! Anyone have any idea how much kinetic energy is transferred by a plasma or fusion gun?

I would also assume that a laser would set combustible materials on fire.

Does anyone have an idea what the ROF (rate of fire) for these weapons are? Is there a "Gatling" laser or a rapid-pulse hand-held laser weapon? I have seen RP Plasma and Fusion guns in striker, but they are all artillery or vehicle mounted.

A laser gunner must give off an incredible IR signature!

Also, are these lasers silent?

Can the pulse (bolt) actually be seen? Some real lasers are not visible to the human eye unless there is enough particulate (dust) in the atmosphere they are being fired through. I also have one of those laser pointers and you can only see the point of light from it not the beam.

-M

 

[beowulf2044]

Rule wise, Snapshot included a rule where a laser weapon could fire at two targets, if the first target was missed and the second target was behind the first (if I'm remembering correctly). This sounded like a laser weapon fired a 'long pulse' to me.

 

[PathfinderAP]

I see them as bolts, but see them as whatever you want for your game,

When anyone mentions laser rifles in Traveller I always think of Gavins Gun

No laser arn't silent, well they are in space
I don't think they would ignite combustible materials, unless it was something highly combustible like fuel,

The rest of your questions is like asking how long is a piece of string,

 

[veltyen]

Once again, just interested in people's opinions, ideas, inputs, criticisms etc. here:

So what do you think about lasers (carbines, rifles & pistols are meant here) - do they fire a pulse (bolt) or are they a beam?

IMTU definitely bolt. Short burst then cooling cycle. Damage effect is a cauterised hourglass, the bolt goes straight through and vaporises a small crosssection of material - that then escapes at high speed via the entry and exit wound.

I always figured that they were a pulse (bolt), because a beam would take a lot of energy and that probably wouldn't be possible. At least, it would be hard to sustain a beam in the tech 8 version. A focused beam would mean you would run out of charge way too fast right?

Or you'd end up with the reason that people use rifles rather then sandblasters in combat. While the combined energy of all the "little packets" is quite high, each individual packet can be shrugged off.

I remember reading (I think it was in a Journal article) that when a laser hits its target it transfers the equivalent of one stick of tnt in kinetic energy to its target. Ouch!

Indeed ouch. But probably unrealistic. I'd really prefer not to carry the potential energy of 300 sticks (~ 120 kg) of TNT in a backpack that might catastrophically go off. The energy density of the batteries would be spectacular if that was the case. A couple of gram is probably enough.

Anyone have any idea how much kinetic energy is transferred by a plasma or fusion gun?

Depends on target. Small packets, high speed, tendency to blow through many things.

I would also assume that a laser would set combustible materials on fire.

Probably not, unless there was a very low power setting. Vaporisation tends not to lead to combustion.

A laser gunner must give off an incredible IR signature!

Probably - see cooling cycle issues.

Also, are these lasers silent?

Nope. Loud as all hell. However like a supersonic bullet the source is from all points along the beam, so triangulating source is a lot more difficult. Sound is similar to a supersonic bullet.

Can the pulse (bolt) actually be seen? Some real lasers are not visible to the human eye unless there is enough particulate (dust) in the atmosphere they are being fired through. I also have one of those laser pointers and you can only see the point of light from it not the beam.

The weaponised version could be seen through atmospheric disturbance - but much like a bullet in flight you only have a very short time to see it. Designation lasers would be more similar to laser pointers, but like pointers would require refractive material to be in the way.

 

[boomslang]

So what do you think about lasers (carbines, rifles & pistols are meant here) - do they fire a pulse (bolt) or are they a beam?

Given that they are rated in terns of "shots" rather than "seconds of fire" and never seem to get autofire bonuses, I always assumed they fire single pulses.

They are always traditionally "low-signature" as well, so other than incidental atmo disturbance, they are presumably invisible to the unaided eye until they contact the target, as veltyen mentions.

In the vacuum of space, they are effectively invisible en route, which makes fire control a very interesting challenge... they probably rely on optical aiming, ironically.

 

[atpollard]

When anyone mentions laser rifles in Traveller I always think of Gavins Gun

sweet image.

 

[Gadrin]

Once again, just interested in people's opinions, ideas, inputs, criticisms etc. here:

So what do you think about lasers (carbines, rifles & pistols are meant here) - do they fire a pulse (bolt) or are they a beam?

I always figured that they were a pulse (bolt), because a beam would take a lot of energy and that probably wouldn't be possible. At least, it would be hard to sustain a beam in the tech 8 version. A focused beam would mean you would run out of charge way too fast right? I also, figured these hand-held lasers fired bolts, because if lasers were a beam they would have had to have given it a significant auto-fire bonus in the combat tables.

I realize that there are beam lasers on starship's, but there you have the ship's fusion reactor power plant to provide all the power you need for a beam.

I remember reading (I think it was in a Journal article) that when a laser hits its target it transfers the equivalent of one stick of tnt in kinetic energy to its target. Ouch! Anyone have any idea how much kinetic energy is transferred by a plasma or fusion gun?

I would also assume that a laser would set combustible materials on fire.

Does anyone have an idea what the ROF (rate of fire) for these weapons are? Is there a "Gatling" laser or a rapid-pulse hand-held laser weapon? I have seen RP Plasma and Fusion guns in striker, but they are all artillery or vehicle mounted.

A laser gunner must give off an incredible IR signature!

Also, are these lasers silent?

Can the pulse (bolt) actually be seen? Some real lasers are not visible to the human eye unless there is enough particulate (dust) in the atmosphere they are being fired through. I also have one of those laser pointers and you can only see the point of light from it not the beam.

-M

You might want to try GURPS they offer a bit of an in-depth discussion
of how energy weapons work (at least the old 3rd ed books did).

You're in luck the 3rd ed books are on sale now that they've gone to the 4th ed, over on their e23 website. Some are also available as
PDFs.

You might look at

GURPS Ultra Tech 1 & 2
GURPS Robots
GURPS Vehicles

all of which deal with lasers, masers, blasters, particle beams, grasers
x-ray lasers and Gatling Lasers, rapid pulse plasma weapons, etc, etc.

I believe GURPS Vehicles has a section that explains them and tells
you what the effects might look like. Ultra Tech not only features the
weapons but discusses about how much radiation they give off compared
to other weapons on the battlefield and why certain weapons are superior
to others in that regard.

Ultra Tech 1 & 2 would also be VERY handy for extra high-technology
goodies in a Traveller campaign.

>

 

[atpollard]

A laser could probably be either beam or pulse.

A pulse laser would function more like a bullet with one quick shot that either hits or misses.

A beam laser, by contrast, would require you to paint the target over a period of time while it slowly burned through. As the target moved, the beam would burn a shallow scar that would grow deaper at the point of crossing each time the beam struck an earlier scar. More like burning the victim alive than being shot.

IMTU, I like laser pulses.

 

[Shadowfax]

veltyen, I liked everything you said except for a couple of minor things. Around the edges where the vaporization stops I think the heat would cause a burn. This is just my opinion and comes from observing real life lasers, which are beams, but I like the bolt idea.

As far as the 1 stick of tnt KE transferance goes, I didn't write the article, but I will try to find it and cite it. It seemed to make them way too powerful to me too. If that were the case and they were that powerful, no one would ever live through getting shot by a laser. Battle dress wouldn't help you at all vs lasers and there would have been no good reason to invent either the plasma or the fusion gun. So I am with you on that. I am just wondering if the article I read is canon or not? I'll have to check into it.

I don't think you can hear a laser, which makes it the ultimate sniper weapon unless the enemy is IR equipped (which they probably are all by tech 8). It is definitlely cooler though in a theatrical sense if they make a noise, so I am with you on that.

Thanks for your ideas and inputs.

Btw. I am not exactly sure about what to say to the Gavin comic from PathfinderAP, except for maybe: "Choom! Frazz!" = )

With regard to GURPS. I like the ideas, but its combat engine just doesn't flow for me -even if it may be better in some ways and well thought-out. I haven't looked too much at Traveller GURPS, just because I have gotten away from buying so much stuff. We still play Mêlée the Fantasy Trip, which was the precursor to GURPS. It flows! (Although I have to admit our variant of it has become more GURPS-like in recent years and as a result has stopped flowing quite so well, but we plan to change that again soon. ) But that is all part of something else that you probably don#t want to hear about.

So thanks everyone for your ideas and inputs! = )

 

[the angle]

I could easily see a weapon capable of firing both pulses and beams. A beam would have continuous output (say, 2-3 seconds) at low power, causing less damage but giving a considerable bonus to hit. A pulse would pack the same amount of energy into a millisecond burst, causing quite a lot of damage but with normal chances to hit. A beam would be useful chiefly against unprotected targets. Anyone in armor (especially reflec) would be vulnerable only to a pulse.

Steve

 

[Shadowfax]

Wow, for a beam you'd have to give a big autofire bonus then wouldn't you? Sorry, I am always thinking in terms of striker, because we play a striker traveller mix.

 

[sabredog]

I suppose you could give a beam the +2 bonus and 2 target potential that Striker has but I've always assumed that personal beam lasers were not "on" that long. Instead they were really a pulse laser since the description refers to "bolts". So, a pull of the trigger gets you a rapid pulse with one lens but no autofire bonus and only one target.

Although....I do have a laser finger added to TL-15 Battledress ala' The Forever War that hits as a laser rifle (but 4D6 damage), but can hit up to 2 targets at once, or two chances to hit the same target because it is a steady beam instead of a pulse. Effective range is limited to 50m (medium in CT), but its intended only as a sort of sidearm, after the FGMP runs out of ammo or in CQB where using the big gun might be a hazard to the firer. Power for the laser finger is only limited by the power source of the suit.

 

[Johnny_BoomBoom]

I have always seen lasers (hand held) fire a bolt or pulse- very much like those in Star Wars. Whilst it is always good to have a gun give off a 'report' when firing (again the blasters in Star Wars sound just like a metallic tool, struck onto a high tension steel cabel - 'cos that's mostly where they got the sounds....) I would suggest that in Traveller lasers would be silent.

I would allow Laser weapons to go into 'paint' mode, in which case it's a low powered beam, but I still think the bolt/pulse is the way I would envisage it working, mostly becuase of how lasers work in real life:-

http://science.howstuffworks.com/laser.htm

Not sure about the stick of TNT analogy, but I would imagine a very serious burn would result (causterised though). I would imagine though that there would not be an exit wound, as that would be inefficient (energy escaping and not adding to the damage of the target!). I also would imagine that the energy discharge could ignite flammable substances/materials.

I would, question the IR signature - if the lasing material generates light in the red and infra red part of the spectrum, sure. If it's the violet/ultraviolet end.....doubtful. If it's in the X-ray part (Tech 13 and above) no!

Just my 2 creds worth!

 

[sabredog]

I would allow Laser weapons to go into 'paint' mode, in which case it's a low powered beam, but I still think the bolt/pulse is the way I would envisage it working, mostly becuase of how lasers work in real life:-

In LBB4 Mercenary the illustration of a merc forward observer notes that he is carrying a laser carbine to designate targets. So I think your point is valid.

 

[Shadowfax]

I have always seen lasers (hand held) fire a bolt or pulse- very much like those in Star Wars. Whilst it is always good to have a gun give off a 'report' when firing (again the blasters in Star Wars sound just like a metallic tool, struck onto a high tension steel cabel - 'cos that's mostly where they got the sounds....) I would suggest that in Traveller lasers would be silent.

-----------------IMTU they now are silent. = )

I would allow Laser weapons to go into 'paint' mode, in which case it's a low powered beam, but I still think the bolt/pulse is the way I would envisage it working, mostly becuase of how lasers work in real life:-

---------------------I agree about the paint mode and I always thought of them as being a pulse too, just because a sustained beam would expend a lot of charges, but realistically I am think that beams or pulses are possible. With the beam you would get an autofire bonus, but you would use up like 3x the charges that you would if you just fired a pulse. Also, the IR signature from the beam would persist longer and be hotter, reducing your laser gunner's life expectancy in the face of multiple IR-equipped opponents.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/laser.htm

Not sure about the stick of TNT analogy,

--------------------Me either, but I read it somewhere. I don't know if its canon or not. Thanx for the link! = )

but I would imagine a very serious burn would result (causterised though). I would imagine though that there would not be an exit wound, as that would be inefficient (energy escaping and not adding to the damage of the target!). I also would imagine that the energy discharge could ignite flammable substances/materials.

--------------------I think that there would be an exit wound all the fluid around the hit would become super heated. That would cause a lot of damage, but you are right that a lot of the laser's potential damage would go right out the other side of the target.

----------------------I see flammable stuff being set ablaze too! = )

I would, question the IR signature - if the lasing material generates light in the red and infra red part of the spectrum, sure. If it's the violet/ultraviolet end.....doubtful. If it's in the X-ray part (Tech 13 and above) no!

Just my 2 creds worth!

-------------------------Ok, on the IR signature. I will have to read more there.

----------------------What do you think about a visual signature? Can these lasers be seen? Can they be seen from every angle or only 90° perpendicular to the beam?

---------------Thanks for your two credits. You are all helping me to come to a consensus about how we want to run things in OTU. = )

 

[sabredog]

According to Striker the laser is visible. And the more power the higher the signature, but all laser fire has an automatic signature. X-ray lasers would be an exception, or maybe a maser, but neither of these is canon for a man-portable device. Or vehicle mounted either for that matter.

Striker also points out that energy weapons, lasers, and explosives do one level higher of damage to personnel because of the explosive effects caused by these weapons. If a laser had enough energy to damage a person beyond a mere 3rd degree burn (and it'd have to deliver the energy fast enough you couldn't just walk away from it) there might not be an exit would per se, but the fluids in the tissues would explode into steam and that would be the cause of trauma more than an entry wound 2mm across. The expanding hydrostatic shockwave and ruptured organs from it would be what really kills you.

Just like the way the temporary cavitation caused by a bullet entering a body that causes the majority of the trauma (unless it actually destroys a major organ by direct impact). So a laser wouldn't so much be more deadly than a high velocity expanding round from a slugthrower, but it's best value would be that as a line of sight speed-of-light weapon you wouldn't miss very often if at all. And since it wouldn't rely on impact most forms of body armor would provide little protection.

 

[Shadowfax]

Striker also points out that energy weapons, lasers, and explosives do one level higher of damage to personnel because of the explosive effects caused by these weapons. If a laser had enough energy to damage a person beyond a mere 3rd degree burn (and it'd have to deliver the energy fast enough you couldn't just walk away from it) there might not be an exit would per se, but the fluids in the tissues would explode into steam and that would be the cause of trauma more than an entry wound 2mm across. The expanding hydrostatic shockwave and ruptured organs from it would be what really kills you.

Just like the way the temporary cavitation caused by a bullet entering a body that causes the majority of the trauma (unless it actually destroys a major organ by direct impact). So a laser wouldn't so much be more deadly than a high velocity expanding round from a slugthrower, but it's best value would be that as a line of sight speed-of-light weapon you wouldn't miss very often if at all. And since it wouldn't rely on impact most forms of body armor would provide little protection.

-----------------------Yeah, that is what I was trying to get at when I answered Johnny Boom_boom above. That all sounds good and plausible to me.

 

[Matt123]

Not sure a laser would be silent.

I would think a weapons grade laser bolt moving at light speed would vapourise any atmospheric moisture content in passing and superheat the air, causing a rapid atmospheric expansion 'pulse' along the path of the light bolt that would be audible.

It may or may not be as loud as the crack of a rifle bullet passing, but I suspect a laser bolt wouldn't be silent. The laser carbine of course would be silent.

 

[Shadowfax]

Not sure a laser would be silent.

I would think a weapons grade laser bolt moving at light speed would vapourise any atmospheric moisture content in passing and superheat the air, causing a rapid atmospheric expansion 'pulse' along the path of the light bolt that would be audible.

It may or may not be as loud as the crack of a rifle bullet passing, but I suspect a laser bolt wouldn't be silent. The laser carbine of course would be silent.

----------------The military lasers are silent except for the humming of all the power generators needed to fire them and the noises that are made when they hit something and it starts to fry, breaks apart or just simply explodes (usually due to trapped moisture being superheated in fractions of a second). It depends on the material that is hit though. The "Strahlung" (beam/pulse) themselves make no noise.

 

[kafka47]

I had always visualized a beam for lower tech lasers a la Gavin and illos in Classic Traveller (replete with backback) but once they reach a Tech to have their own power supply in the weapon itself...then it becomes a bolt. The TL lag in the dmg stats reflects that.