Lasers, nerfed

[BwapTED]

Note:

I don't necessarily think lasers are too powerful.
I haven't run enough Traveller combats with a wide enough mix of weapons and armor to draw any such conclusions.

I was just tossing out an idea for review by guys who have expressed the opinion that lasers may be a bit too potent for their liking.
This is a spinoff of the Reflec thread.

 

[aramis]

Note:

I don't necessarily think lasers are too powerful.
I haven't run enough Traveller combats with a wide enough mix of weapons and armor to draw any such conclusions.

I was just tossing out an idea for review by guys who have expressed the opinion that lasers may be a bit too potent for their liking.
This is a spinoff of the Reflec thread.

I ran enough combat under CT in the 80's to know that the damages are WAY too low for realism. Why? because the 1 shot kill percentage on 777xxx is 0% on anything under 2d+9 or 4D. And the .22LR in a pistol has a one-shot-kill percentage of between 15 and 25% - but the 5mm pistols in Traveller have ZERO chance of one-shot-kill. (It also has a roughly 35%±5% one-shot-stop rate.) The 2d body pistol is a pretty good one-shot-stop match...

Striker/AHL is a much better fit to the one-shot-kill rates...

Which is better for game play? depends upon one's tastes.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think that was done to give the players (and I guess NPCs) a chance to survive. About the time I was putting the game down for the third or fourth time Journal came out with the hits' location chart, and the primitive almost-stickman like figure diagram. If you used that in a game (and I recall trying once or twice), then, in theory, you could get an instakill with a head shot or heart shot on an unarmored target.

 

[kilemall]

I think that was done to give the players (and I guess NPCs) a chance to survive. About the time I was putting the game down for the third or fourth time Journal came out with the hits' location chart, and the primitive almost-stickman like figure diagram. If you used that in a game (and I recall trying once or twice), then, in theory, you could get an instakill with a head shot or heart shot on an unarmored target.

Hmm, missed that article.

That was a design goal of my version, pistols have a chance to definitely kill, along with blades (which were pretty powerful in CT proper but got nerfed to death of 1000 cuts in Striker).

 

[Blue Ghost]

I guess my only beef with lasers is that the guy who does the "Behind the Claw" podcast says that they're silent and invisible according to MgT. They can be at low power, but aren't necessarily at sufficiently high energies. Ditto with the Gauss rifle (weapons), which I'm guessing might have been first based off of the old Russian underwater rifle which is (or so I recall) an electric gun.

Lab lasers are silent, and usually aren't visible unless you throw some dust or vapor in front of them. At higher energies where you still can't see them Hollywood style, they do have a kind of signature, or so I recall.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Hmm, missed that article.

That was a design goal of my version, pistols have a chance to definitely kill, along with blades (which were pretty powerful in CT proper but got nerfed to death of 1000 cuts in Striker).

It's interesting, because I keep hearing about Striker, but it's the one CT supp/game (boxed mini game IIRC) that I never purchased. I think it was because I didn't want o spend tons of cash on lead minis ... D&D and one or two other games ... Starfleet Wars, already had a large line of cash-soaking minis, and aesthetically I just didn't like the minis back then, in addition to minis being money killers.

 

[kilemall]

It's interesting, because I keep hearing about Striker, but it's the one CT supp/game (boxed mini game IIRC) that I never purchased. I think it was because I didn't want o spend tons of cash on lead minis ... D&D and one or two other games ... Starfleet Wars, already had a large line of cash-soaking minis, and aesthetically I just didn't like the minis back then, in addition to minis being money killers.

Most mini I would have bought into back then was cardboard heroes. Could buy 10mm minis but that is just leveraging a large N scale investment in buildings and 'civvy' people I already have.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Hmm, missed that article.

That was a design goal of my version, pistols have a chance to definitely kill, along with blades (which were pretty powerful in CT proper but got nerfed to death of 1000 cuts in Striker).

It was "The Traveller's Digest" series, not JTAS nor MT Journal. I can't remember the issue, but I think it's the one where there's a Vargr hefting a crate on the cover, and some merchant or someone is smiling at him.

Reading this thread and others, I somehow get the feeling that people are applying the #D as one giant attack, verse what our group did was apply whatever number of dice to a character per bullet / round fired. If true, then one of us is misinterpreting the rules.

Ergo, "back in the day", it was either Steve or Ray in my second or third gaming group, who pointed out that there was nothing regulating "panic fire" pertaining to laser weapons (I'm thinking it was Ray....just the way that dude thinks). Plasma and Fusion weapons were regulated to once a turn or every other turn, and required BD (or some home brew harness). So, you couldn't cap off two 16D rounds at a single target, but, again if you "rules lawyer-ed" the panic fire rule, then potentially you could dump 50 x 4d6 shots (200d6) shots into a target, or 100 x 5d6 shots (500d6) shots.

So, assuming nothing's changed (I think there was some addendum or errata in MT or GT), then yeah, the powers that be might want to re-examine both Laser carbine and Laser rifle game mechanic.

And I think in general that the laser weapon has been given an undue niche. And I think that goes for the other weapons too. T5 has it's "thing maker" mechanic, but like I say, I think CT and MgT may want to give the laser weapons a re-look.

If I run a game this year, then the laser weapon is going to be;
A) cinematic (not invisible, unless desired, make lots of noise, and have physical "impacts" in certain situations
B) more portable
C) and have a broader diversity of kit and hardware available

I write this post because Traveller wanted to be the do-all DIY scifi RPG, and so lasers were meant to be noisy and visible as per Hollywood standards. And I think it just adds needed texture.

 

[aramis]

It was "The Traveller's Digest" series, not JTAS nor MT Journal. I can't remember the issue, but I think it's the one where there's a Vargr hefting a crate on the cover, and some merchant or someone is smiling at him.

Issue 13, page 32. You're describing the wrong issue, BTW. Cover of 13 shows a guy in front of the sphinx...

 

[Blue Ghost]

*I should be painting, but I'm too lazy*

The Earth issue. Okay, there's a reason I kept that issue. The target hit location was one of them.

 

[Blue Ghost]

More laser thoughts;

Wish List;

A) Laser LMGs

B) Laser SMG (I actually home brewed one back in the day because I thought it was a cool concept ... and may include it in my next gaming session)

C) I think here or on one of the other laser threads someone mentioned disposable one shot ammo battery packs for other laser weapons

D) Laser "assault" rifle or "ACR" (I seem to recall the Zhos use a form of laser assault rifle)

E) to me anti-laser aerosols should only effect "civilian" laser grade weapons

F) just a greater variance, and implicit, as per my previous post … laser or “ray” guns are supposed to be one of the great staples of scifi, and to me they seem to have been all but neutered for this game.


*now to finish the kitchen and living room*

 

[whulorigan]

More laser thoughts;

Wish List;

A) Laser LMGs

B) Laser SMG (I actually home brewed one back in the day because I thought it was a cool concept ... and may include it in my next gaming session)
...

D) Laser "assault" rifle or "ACR" (I seem to recall the Zhos use a form of laser assault rifle)
.
.
.

There are write-ups for these in one of the issues of Challenge (I don't remember which one, off hand).

 

[mike wightman]

More laser thoughts;

Wish List;

A) Laser LMGs

B) Laser SMG (I actually home brewed one back in the day because I thought it was a cool concept ... and may include it in my next gaming session)

C) I think here or on one of the other laser threads someone mentioned disposable one shot ammo battery packs for other laser weapons

D) Laser "assault" rifle or "ACR" (I seem to recall the Zhos use a form of laser assault rifle)

E) to me anti-laser aerosols should only effect "civilian" laser grade weapons

F) just a greater variance, and implicit, as per my previous post … laser or “ray” guns are supposed to be one of the great staples of scifi, and to me they seem to have been all but neutered for this game.


*now to finish the kitchen and living room*

You can find all of these in T4's Emperor's Arsenal.

 

[mike wightman]

Another thing - according to the rules as found in LBB4 panic fire is only possible with slug throwers:

Panic Fire: At medium range or less, players may voluntarily chose to use panic fire, if firing small arms slug throwers. Panic fire uses all rounds in the weapon, and hits are resolved as if the weapon were being fired at its highest setting (four round bursts, etc). The player may take up to three normal fires (or less, depending on how much ammunition is left in the weapon when panic fire is initiated), all of which are made at a DM of -2. When firing rifles treat them as assault rifles on automatic setting Players firing carbines treat them as submachine guns.

So no panic fire with laser or plasma weapons.

 

[Blue Ghost]

TTB doesn't say that though, nor does Snapshot, and those were the rules we were using before Mercenary.

But thanks for the heads' up.

 

[mike wightman]

There are no rules for panic fire in either of those.

Panic fire as an option only appears in LBB:4.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yeah there are. Right in personal combat. I just read it last night. I think the concept was first introduced in Snapshot before it was part of TTB.

 

[mike wightman]

There are no rules for panic fire in TTB or Snapshot that I can find, can you quote pages please?

Not being snarky I just get really annoyed with myself when I miss stuff.

 

[McPerth]

They're not too bad under standard CT rules - Gauss rifles are way more overpowered. Under Striker they have very high penetration and get the 'Exploding round' rule, which does make them pretty much an insta-kill against most types of armour up to TL13 battle dress.

I don't know Striker, but in AHL Laser Rifles and Gauss Rifles have the same penetration value, and none of them has the exploding extra damage (limited to HE and HEAP rounds)...

It seems Striker and AHL are not as equivalent as I believed from what I have been told...

 

[Blue Ghost]

There are no rules for panic fire in TTB or Snapshot that I can find, can you quote pages please?

Not being snarky I just get really annoyed with myself when I miss stuff.

Oh man, I just had a look now, and now I can't find it. I think I read it under "special considerations" or it was on the actual combat chart pages somewhere.

It surprised me, because I didn't recall reading that rule in TTB, and could have sworn it was a Snapshot (or even BK4) only rule.

And yes, I do seem to recall pointing out to my trigger happy friend that panic fire with laser weapons was not allowed under Mercenary.