Leaving Orbit (A contradiction of canon rules)

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Ishmael James:
for aero lifting, one thing that seems to be forgotten is that lift is proportional to air density, so worlds with thin atmospheres will give give ships that use aerolift fits.

Another thing that should not be forgotten is that a "streamlined" hull doesn't necessarily mean the ship has wings.

30 ton Ship's Boats are streamlined, and they're nothing but smooth cylinders. The 800 ton Mercenary Crusier is streamlined, but it definitely can't garner aerodynamic lift.

So, even in dense atmospheres, it's hard for me to see a Type A Free Trader automatically taking advantage of aerodynamic lift when it doesn't have wings.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Ishmael James:
for aero lifting, one thing that seems to be forgotten is that lift is proportional to air density, so worlds with thin atmospheres will give give ships that use aerolift fits.

Another thing that should not be forgotten is that a "streamlined" hull doesn't necessarily mean the ship has wings.

30 ton Ship's Boats are streamlined, and they're nothing but smooth cylinders. The 800 ton Mercenary Crusier is streamlined, but it definitely can't garner aerodynamic lift.

So, even in dense atmospheres, it's hard for me to see a Type A Free Trader automatically taking advantage of aerodynamic lift when it doesn't have wings.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Another thing that should not be forgotten is that a "streamlined" hull doesn't necessarily mean the ship has wings.

That depends hugely on which design system you use (B2 or B5) and what is "right", right

Remember B2 only did streamlined or not, and B5 only added partially streamlined. My interpretation has always been:

Unstreamlined in B2 is Unstreamlined or Partially Streamlined.

Streamlined in B2 and B5 is Streamlined or Airframe.

My examples of the standard craft are coloured by the Kieth artwork in CT...

10ton Fighter is streamlined and airframe.

20ton Launch, 30ton Boats, and 50ton Cutter are all streamlined but NOT airframes.

40ton Pinnaces and 95ton Shuttle are streamlined and airframes.

100ton Scout/Courier is streamlined but NOT airframe.

200ton Free-Trader is streamlined but NOT airframe.

200ton Yacht is unstreamlined and NOT partially streamlined.

400ton Subsidized Merchant is streamlined and airframe.

400ton Patrol Cruiser is streamlined and airframe.

600ton Subsidized Liner is unstreamlined and partially streamlined.

800ton Mercenary Cruiser is unstreamlined and partially streamlined.

SO in my books, and it's varied over editions but basically in CT...

Unstreamlined atmosphere interaction will almost certainly result in damage. Basically roll 13+ for damage when entering atmosphere. -DM for Pilot skill and +1DM cumulative per Atmosphere number and with a +DM of 6 for the lack of any streamlining. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Partially Streamlined means you can get away with very thin atmosphere interaction with little risk of damage. Again a 13+ roll for damage when entering atmosphere. -DM for Pilot skill and +1DM per Atmosphere number and with a +DM of 3 for the partial streamlining. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Streamlined means you can interact with most atmospheres with little risk of damage. Same 13+ roll for damage. -DM for Pilot skill and +1DM per Atmosphere number but with a -DM of 3 for the streamlining. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Airframe means you can interact with any atmosphere with ease. Same 13+ roll for damage. -DM for Pilot skill and +1DM per Atmosphere number but with a -DM of 6 for the airframe. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Damage is a random roll on the Ship Combat damage table for each point by which the total exceeds 12.

DO NOT roll a 12 with a Pilot trainee (skill-0) flying an unstreamlined ship into an Insidious atmosphere...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Another thing that should not be forgotten is that a "streamlined" hull doesn't necessarily mean the ship has wings.

That depends hugely on which design system you use (B2 or B5) and what is "right", right

Remember B2 only did streamlined or not, and B5 only added partially streamlined. My interpretation has always been:

Unstreamlined in B2 is Unstreamlined or Partially Streamlined.

Streamlined in B2 and B5 is Streamlined or Airframe.

My examples of the standard craft are coloured by the Kieth artwork in CT...

10ton Fighter is streamlined and airframe.

20ton Launch, 30ton Boats, and 50ton Cutter are all streamlined but NOT airframes.

40ton Pinnaces and 95ton Shuttle are streamlined and airframes.

100ton Scout/Courier is streamlined but NOT airframe.

200ton Free-Trader is streamlined but NOT airframe.

200ton Yacht is unstreamlined and NOT partially streamlined.

400ton Subsidized Merchant is streamlined and airframe.

400ton Patrol Cruiser is streamlined and airframe.

600ton Subsidized Liner is unstreamlined and partially streamlined.

800ton Mercenary Cruiser is unstreamlined and partially streamlined.

SO in my books, and it's varied over editions but basically in CT...

Unstreamlined atmosphere interaction will almost certainly result in damage. Basically roll 13+ for damage when entering atmosphere. -DM for Pilot skill and +1DM cumulative per Atmosphere number and with a +DM of 6 for the lack of any streamlining. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Partially Streamlined means you can get away with very thin atmosphere interaction with little risk of damage. Again a 13+ roll for damage when entering atmosphere. -DM for Pilot skill and +1DM per Atmosphere number and with a +DM of 3 for the partial streamlining. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Streamlined means you can interact with most atmospheres with little risk of damage. Same 13+ roll for damage. -DM for Pilot skill and +1DM per Atmosphere number but with a -DM of 3 for the streamlining. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Airframe means you can interact with any atmosphere with ease. Same 13+ roll for damage. -DM for Pilot skill and +1DM per Atmosphere number but with a -DM of 6 for the airframe. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Damage is a random roll on the Ship Combat damage table for each point by which the total exceeds 12.

DO NOT roll a 12 with a Pilot trainee (skill-0) flying an unstreamlined ship into an Insidious atmosphere...

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Unstreamlined atmosphere interaction will almost certainly result in damage. Basically a 13+ check for damage when entering atmosphere. +DM for Pilot skill and -1DM cumulative per Atmosphere number. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Partially Streamlined means you can get away with very thin atmosphere interaction with little risk of damage. Again a 13+ check for damage when entering atmosphere. +DM for Pilot skill and -1DM per Atmosphere number. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Streamlined means you can interact with most atmospheres with little risk of damage. Same 13+ check for damage. +DM for Pilot skill and -1DM per Atmosphere number but with a +DM of 3 for the streamlining. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Airframe means you can interact with any atmosphere with ease. Same 13+ check for damage. +DM for Pilot skill and -1DM per Atmosphere number but with a +DM of 6 for the airframe. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Damage is a random roll on the Ship Combat damage table for each point by which the roll failed.

DO NOT roll a 2 with a Pilot trainee (skill-0) flying an unstreamlined ship into an Insidious atmosphere...

These are your House Rules?

It's really good stuff. You should write it up, all nice-like, and post it in the Rules INDEX thread. That's the type of stuff other GMs want to use in their games. Why don't you stick that in the thread so that others can easily find and use it?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Unstreamlined atmosphere interaction will almost certainly result in damage. Basically a 13+ check for damage when entering atmosphere. +DM for Pilot skill and -1DM cumulative per Atmosphere number. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Partially Streamlined means you can get away with very thin atmosphere interaction with little risk of damage. Again a 13+ check for damage when entering atmosphere. +DM for Pilot skill and -1DM per Atmosphere number. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Streamlined means you can interact with most atmospheres with little risk of damage. Same 13+ check for damage. +DM for Pilot skill and -1DM per Atmosphere number but with a +DM of 3 for the streamlining. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Airframe means you can interact with any atmosphere with ease. Same 13+ check for damage. +DM for Pilot skill and -1DM per Atmosphere number but with a +DM of 6 for the airframe. Treat GG skimming as Atmosphere 3.

Damage is a random roll on the Ship Combat damage table for each point by which the roll failed.

DO NOT roll a 2 with a Pilot trainee (skill-0) flying an unstreamlined ship into an Insidious atmosphere...

These are your House Rules?

It's really good stuff. You should write it up, all nice-like, and post it in the Rules INDEX thread. That's the type of stuff other GMs want to use in their games. Why don't you stick that in the thread so that others can easily find and use it?

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Not forgotten by this Traveller, but fortunately it's the small worlds with light gravity that will typically have thin atmo, and the big worlds with more gravity will have more atmo...

Excellent point, Dan!

 

[Arthur Denger]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Not forgotten by this Traveller, but fortunately it's the small worlds with light gravity that will typically have thin atmo, and the big worlds with more gravity will have more atmo...

Excellent point, Dan!

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:

Originally posted by Ishmael James:
for aero lifting, one thing that seems to be forgotten is that lift is proportional to air density, so worlds with thin atmospheres will give give ships that use aerolift fits.

Another thing that should not be forgotten is that a "streamlined" hull doesn't necessarily mean the ship has wings.

30 ton Ship's Boats are streamlined, and they're nothing but smooth cylinders. The 800 ton Mercenary Crusier is streamlined, but it definitely can't garner aerodynamic lift.

So, even in dense atmospheres, it's hard for me to see a Type A Free Trader automatically taking advantage of aerodynamic lift when it doesn't have wings.

Streamlining only defines drag. It says almost nothing about lift. Almost any shape can generate lift. Wings are necessary for slow speed flight and for control.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
These are your House Rules?

Yep. As recalled by increasingly faulty memory*

* already realized forgot the hull mods for the unstreamlined and partially streamlined, fixed above, now it's more fun

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
It's really good stuff. You should write it up, all nice-like, and post it in the Rules INDEX thread. That's the type of stuff other GMs want to use in their games. Why don't you stick that in the thread so that others can easily find and use it?

Thanks, I may do that, once I correct it

I typed too fast and didn't proof them, they were all bass ackwards as presented, and I missed a couple DMs. Edited above. Will post them to the Rules bit later.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
These are your House Rules?

Yep. As recalled by increasingly faulty memory*

* already realized forgot the hull mods for the unstreamlined and partially streamlined, fixed above, now it's more fun

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
It's really good stuff. You should write it up, all nice-like, and post it in the Rules INDEX thread. That's the type of stuff other GMs want to use in their games. Why don't you stick that in the thread so that others can easily find and use it?

Thanks, I may do that, once I correct it

I typed too fast and didn't proof them, they were all bass ackwards as presented, and I missed a couple DMs. Edited above. Will post them to the Rules bit later.

 

[BlackBat242]

A lifting body has no wings... although it might have control surfaces:

The Paranoia Press scouts and free traders are shaped like the space shuttle... with twin vertical stabilizers and variable-sweep wings. Here is where I have the drawings for the 100 ton variant... there are 150t and 200t versions as well.
http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/Bager1968/Game%20stuff/ships/


The classic "arrowhead" type-S 100t scout, the 200t Aslan Combat scout, and many others are very easily modified into a lifting body shape.

 

[BlackBat242]

A lifting body has no wings... although it might have control surfaces:

The Paranoia Press scouts and free traders are shaped like the space shuttle... with twin vertical stabilizers and variable-sweep wings. Here is where I have the drawings for the 100 ton variant... there are 150t and 200t versions as well.
http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/Bager1968/Game%20stuff/ships/


The classic "arrowhead" type-S 100t scout, the 200t Aslan Combat scout, and many others are very easily modified into a lifting body shape.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BlackBat242:
The Paranoia Press scouts and free traders are shaped like the space shuttle... with twin vertical stabilizers and variable-sweep wings. Here is where I have the drawings for the 100 ton variant... there are 150t and 200t versions as well.

You guys have got to start putting good stuff like this in the INDEX threads. A new GM comes in, peruses the INDEXes, and has all sorts of material for his game at his fingertips.

I'm thinking you don't mind (so tell me if you do), but I'm going to edit the Paranoia Press write-up in the INDEX thread with that link you provide above.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by BlackBat242:
The Paranoia Press scouts and free traders are shaped like the space shuttle... with twin vertical stabilizers and variable-sweep wings. Here is where I have the drawings for the 100 ton variant... there are 150t and 200t versions as well.

You guys have got to start putting good stuff like this in the INDEX threads. A new GM comes in, peruses the INDEXes, and has all sorts of material for his game at his fingertips.

I'm thinking you don't mind (so tell me if you do), but I'm going to edit the Paranoia Press write-up in the INDEX thread with that link you provide above.

 

[Judas Iscariot]

Something just occurred to me...

What fool would build a streamlined ship and leave OFF the atmspheric control surfaces?

Esecially given the inadequacies of maneuver with ships with low G ratings? You could EASILY find yourself in a wind-shear and have NO way of correcting your flight without aerodynamic flight control surfaces... Wind-shear occurs not only at low altitudes but at high altitudes as well.

It is not uncommon for airliners to fly suddently into a wind that is travelling at 400mph in another direction to the wind in which they were previously flying... You are not going to be able to correct that at all if you go nto a flat spin or tumbling roll with only 1G (or 2 or even 3Gs for that mater...

 

[Judas Iscariot]

Something just occurred to me...

What fool would build a streamlined ship and leave OFF the atmspheric control surfaces?

Esecially given the inadequacies of maneuver with ships with low G ratings? You could EASILY find yourself in a wind-shear and have NO way of correcting your flight without aerodynamic flight control surfaces... Wind-shear occurs not only at low altitudes but at high altitudes as well.

It is not uncommon for airliners to fly suddently into a wind that is travelling at 400mph in another direction to the wind in which they were previously flying... You are not going to be able to correct that at all if you go nto a flat spin or tumbling roll with only 1G (or 2 or even 3Gs for that mater...

 

[Judas Iscariot]

Something just occurred to me...

What fool would build a streamlined ship and leave OFF the atmspheric control surfaces?

Esecially given the inadequacies of maneuver with ships with low G ratings? You could EASILY find yourself in a wind-shear and have NO way of correcting your flight without aerodynamic flight control surfaces... Wind-shear occurs not only at low altitudes but at high altitudes as well.

It is not uncommon for airliners to fly suddently into a wind that is travelling at 400mph in another direction to the wind in which they were previously flying... You are not going to be able to correct that at all if you go nto a flat spin or tumbling roll with only 1G (or 2 or even 3Gs for that mater...

 

[Judas Iscariot]

Something just occurred to me...

What fool would build a streamlined ship and leave OFF the atmspheric control surfaces?

Esecially given the inadequacies of maneuver with ships with low G ratings? You could EASILY find yourself in a wind-shear and have NO way of correcting your flight without aerodynamic flight control surfaces... Wind-shear occurs not only at low altitudes but at high altitudes as well.

It is not uncommon for airliners to fly suddently into a wind that is travelling at 400mph in another direction to the wind in which they were previously flying... You are not going to be able to correct that at all if you go nto a flat spin or tumbling roll with only 1G (or 2 or even 3Gs for that mater...

 

[Ishmael]

it dependes on what you mean by 'control surfaces'.
pressure/suction slats use no 'control surfaces' yet can be very effective. If I recall properly, the rf-5a vigilante used a system of such for control.

Also, it the speeds that most ships move through atmospheres during GG skimming, just about any fin-like control surface would have to be insanely strong ( massive structure or materials ) keep from being broken off. IMTU, a ship can only turn as many G's in a dogfight as its structure is rated for. and while smaller ships might be able to handle hi stresses without extensive internal structure, large ship's cannot..aka c-5a galaxy's don't barrel-roll or do loops too well.

imtu, the type 's' IS a lifting body
take a looksee at the traveller-oolite yahoo group to see a model of one.