Lethality in Traveller

[Mused]

I am working on an idea for a good Vietnam/Skirmish war type RPG and am using real world stats

While looking over the casualties, I worked them out to percentages of troops that served in total and then that number on 2D6

Army in Traveller has a survival roll of 7+, which means, assuming you use the 'fail Survival you are injured and parcelled out' idea, is a casualty rate of 58.33% per 4 years

The stats I used cover the US involvement in Vietnam from 1965-1975, so 10 years

Using Traveller, this will result in a WIA casualty rate of 73.06% over 10 years

Vietnam had a rate over 10 years of 1.78% Killed in Action/Died of Wounds and 5.58% of Wounded in Action.

So the Imperial Army has a normal casualty rate well past 1000% more than a continuous action war!

So, either the Imperium is fighting the most vicious war the human race has ever known or they are worse commanders than those in World War One!

Oh, for the Vietnam War in the Army (one of the highest casualty rates) the rolls on 2D6 would be this

2D6 roll Result
2-10 Survived
11 Wounded
12 Killed/Died of Wounds

I found WWI stats for Great Britain

They had a KIA/DOW of 13.03% and a WIA of 30.81% for a 2D6 roll of 6+ Survival roll in a 4 year term

The only countries that match the Imperium's NORMAL casualty rate are Germany and Russia! (Actually, due to low population and cock-ups, Bulgaria, Australia and New Zealand are worse. And Austria Hungary and the French Empire are crazy at 74%!)

A better way to represent injuries is the re-enlistment roll. If you fail the roll, roll 2 dice. Assuming a re-enlist roll of 5+, if you roll a 2 you were parcelled because of injuries. Otherwise assume it was downsizing or malfeasance on your or their part

 

[flykiller]

So the Imperial Army has a normal casualty rate well past 1000% more than a continuous action war!

given A-Z guns, fusion guns man portable, thousands of high-tech missiles, theatre-wide real-time sensor systems, automatic targeting systems, and battlefield meson guns, not to mention support sdb's, californium rounds, chem/bio, planet-wide mobility, smart and mobile mines, robotics, and who knows what else, I'm surprised the traveller survival roll is as low as it is. imagine world war one, without trenches or cover of any kind, and everyone in range of everyone else, and that might be more like a major high-tech traveller war.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

But you also have improved armour and medical treatment.

 

[mike wightman]

Meson artillery makes armour pretty worthless.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

[activates meson screen]

 

[far-trader]

Traveller lethality in a two words:

Vacuum sucks.



High casualty rates will be in play in any misadventure involving vacuum.

The weapon might not kill you and medical treatment would make you whole again, but breathing vacuum for a minute or so will kill you.

And Travellers are probably not the best ones to take as an average for statistical comparison. The career gen numbers are not necessarily (at all imo) indicative of the actual casualty rates (or any other aspect*) of the careers.

* just check the ratio of officers to enlisted for example

 

[mike wightman]

[activates meson screen]

No battlefield meson screens - citywide ones, ship mounted ones, but no battlefield screens.

Always thought it a bit odd that they don't appear to be honest. The rules for nuclear dampers in Striker could probably be adapted spmehow, but that's a different post.

 

[mike wightman]

High casualty rates will be in play in any misadventure involving vacuum.

Not to mention all those nasty atmosphere types that can spoil your day real quick if you get a hole in your combat environment suit or above.

And Travellers are probably not the best ones to take as an average for statistical comparison. The career gen numbers are not necessarily (at all imo) indicative of the actual casualty rates (or any other aspect*) of the careers.

Yep, agree with this too.

 

[far-trader]

One more caveat when comparing Traveller survival rolls to Real Life occurs which I tend to forget at times. The survival roll is a game mechanic to encourage (with the original failure equal death and new character) players to balance the odds against rolling another term. This produces more short term characters. Once you raise the survival odds too high or drop the roll new character rule many players will just roll term after term until they hit the retirement wall.

So really it's nothing more than a game mechanic. Something to keep in mind when working on your system

A better place (I think) to apply Real Life combat lethality is in weapons and combat rules. To hit and damage, armor adjustments and tactics, etc.

 

[Supplement Four]

given A-Z guns, fusion guns man portable, thousands of high-tech missiles, theatre-wide real-time sensor systems, automatic targeting systems, and battlefield meson guns, not to mention support sdb's, californium rounds, chem/bio, planet-wide mobility, smart and mobile mines, robotics, and who knows what else...

Limited-use nukes.

But you also have improved armour and medical treatment.

Depends...on the tech level.

If you're using Colonial Armies, their tech is that of their homeworld. Many places on the edge of the Imperium (like the Spinward Marches) sport tech that is equivalent to the Vietnam era.

 

[samuelvss]

So really it's nothing more than a game mechanic. Something to keep in mind when working on your system

Yeah, what he said!

The tables don't represent reality, they are a check on gamesmanship, and even then represent those who are unusual in every respect, as Far-Trader noted in his earlier post.

 

[epicenter00]

It is a little too lethal. I think most of us have always known this. For the most part, the numbers in Traveller are because the Chargen is supposed to a game unto itself.

Most wars the Imperium fights are far less intense than the "future total wars" with superweapons. In fact, reading between the lines, I think that many of the 3I's wars were/are of a very asymmetric nature - perhaps the Imperium is using various supertech on various less technologically advanced foes, which should mean an even higher survival rate. Even Frontier Wars against the Zhodani don't seem that common and given the lack of commentary about Efate or Cronor or wherever being reduced to an irradiated ball ball orbital weapons, I think the Zhodani and the Imperium are extremely restrained in their use superweapons.

I've always always thought given the nature of the Imperial Army (planet-based, relatively immobile) vs. the Marines, I could see the Marines have a relatively high injury/casualty rate but the Army less so - the Imperium simply trusts and uses it's army less, so it should be easier to live through terms while the Marines are used not just for combat, but for exploring derelicts, boarding parties, and generally wearing red-shirts.

 

[Mused]

So the chargen represents a different breed of more adventurous types perhaps?

I guess player characters are the 'go big or go home', 'seize the day' or 'I am a rampaging idiot with a fusion gun which I am going to use in hand to hand combat, splash be damned' types

Traveller chargen is a bit of party game in and of itself but I stand by my assertion that it is more than a touch too hazardous

Either that, or this explains the original Traveller reaction charts which had around 11% of all encounters going violent! (Party walks up to bureaucrat , asks 'what time is it?', bureaucrat whips out PGMP-14 and says 'time for YOU to leave!')

 

[far-trader]

...

Either that, or this explains the original Traveller reaction charts which had around 11% of all encounters going violent! (Party walks up to bureaucrat , asks 'what time is it?', bureaucrat whips out PGMP-14 and says 'time for YOU to leave!')

Hey! I played in that game!

Well, maybe not a bureaucrat, but more than once we landed at a nice respectable law abiding port and our first encounter out the airlock was 53 - Religious Group who for no good reason and without so much as an "Infinity welcomes sub-c travellers." they'd pull out weapons above the local law level and start using us as live target practice

I've wondered now and then since if the ref was rolling random or if we were just blissfully unaware of a price on our heads by the Church of Kill the Player Characters :smirk:

 

[far-trader]

So the chargen represents a different breed of more adventurous types perhaps?

I guess player characters are the 'go big or go home', 'seize the day' or 'I am a rampaging idiot with a fusion gun which I am going to use in hand to hand combat, splash be damned' types

Yep, I find this also reflected in the Aging Table rolls and oft quote Dr. Jones:

"It's not the years. It's the mileage."
​

Player Characters age before their time from the rough life of adventure they are drawn to, just as many die before their time in chargen for the same reason

 

[Saxondog]

I had a series of tables (back in the early 80s, high school ROTC) that showed estimated casualty percentages for various wars. The American figures given in the original post match what I remember. The problem is, the figure included personnel from the entire military, not just those in combat. The casualty figures would be higher if you included only those who saw combat.

The answer? Assignment rolls. Combat assignment has the higher casualty rate of the original game material. The return is combat skills. A non-combat assignment has a 3+ survival roll but you get admin, instructor, etc. A potential temporary reassignment to a combat unit perhaps being an option.

 

[Mused]

I had a series of tables (back in the early 80s, high school ROTC) that showed estimated casualty percentages for various wars. The American figures given in the original post match what I remember. The problem is, the figure included personnel from the entire military, not just those in combat. The casualty figures would be higher if you included only those who saw combat.

The answer? Assignment rolls. Combat assignment has the higher casualty rate of the original game material. The return is combat skills. A non-combat assignment has a 3+ survival roll but you get admin, instructor, etc. A potential temporary reassignment to a combat unit perhaps being an option.

Actually that was just army and only includes troops serving in theater

Mind you, since the teeth to tail of the US Army is something like 8-1 or so (in Vietnam, a combat zone, the ratio was higher teeth than normal in the Army, which is like 12-1)

 

[kafka47]

Lethality in Traveller is part of its appeal. One does not elevate to uber character able to shug off bullets like the proverbal Man of Steel. One of the things that I worried about T20 was that indeed they would have to adopt the "hit point model". However, the trick is how to balance in the heroic...there always has to be Bard who will take down Smaug. CT merely reflects as technology advances so does the lethality and the conditioning perhaps and the desensitivity toward killing.

Mongoose Traveller does have some quirky things like a broadsword attacking battledress and they do provide some justifications for it...but not nearly enough. Hopefully they might come up with a supplement that might bring realism and lethality back into their combat system.