Looking for references to Kinunir Class cruisers
- Thread starter rancke
- Start date
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Well, according to the CT LBB Supplement 9 Fighting Ships, it is "an ill-fated model discontinued after a production run of only 20 examples. Several have been lost in action, and one has been converted to an orbital prison".
Not many to look for.
I do like the return of the "prison hulk" concept.
Not many to look for.
I do like the return of the "prison hulk" concept.
Hans,
Other than the references to the class in the Library Data supplement in entries under "Battle of Two Suns" which essentially repeat the information from A:1, the only other reference I've been able to put my hands on quickly is in TNE's Brilliant Lances.
That reference is just a starship data profile however.
There's a Kinunir counter in the Battle Rider game too.
Regards,
Bill
Other than the references to the class in the Library Data supplement in entries under "Battle of Two Suns" which essentially repeat the information from A:1, the only other reference I've been able to put my hands on quickly is in TNE's Brilliant Lances.
That reference is just a starship data profile however.
There's a Kinunir counter in the Battle Rider game too.
Regards,
Bill
Canon setting references
S10 28 world for which the class is named is in Dingir Subsector, Kinunir 0404 B532799 C Po NA GG
S9 19 class page in Fighting Ships.
AHL-RB 39 two named Enki Kalamma and Markashi, still in service in 1101
A4 5 typical trans-frontier TF includes Kinunir, 2x Gazelle, possibly also a dedicated detection or resupply ship.
A4 9 rumor C.
A4 41 datablock in HG format.
A3 11 reference to a task group.
other references
JTAS14 25 example in HG Optional Rules
JTAS06 26 example design in HG design sequnces
S7 43 Kinunir appears on encounter tables, and references to A1...
A5 28 reference to Kinunirs in BCS.
B5 35,36 example in HG design system
B5 51 LD entry (see below)
B5 52 example data block
A3 11
B5 51
I have not included references to A1; many products do so in the other products list.
No MT references in PM, IE, RM, COACC, RC, RbSB
S10 28 world for which the class is named is in Dingir Subsector, Kinunir 0404 B532799 C Po NA GG
S9 19 class page in Fighting Ships.
AHL-RB 39 two named Enki Kalamma and Markashi, still in service in 1101
A4 5 typical trans-frontier TF includes Kinunir, 2x Gazelle, possibly also a dedicated detection or resupply ship.
A4 9 rumor C.
A4 41 datablock in HG format.
A3 11 reference to a task group.
other references
JTAS14 25 example in HG Optional Rules
JTAS06 26 example design in HG design sequnces
S7 43 Kinunir appears on encounter tables, and references to A1...
A5 28 reference to Kinunirs in BCS.
B5 35,36 example in HG design system
B5 51 LD entry (see below)
B5 52 example data block
A3 11
AlginelRegina (0803.X7669774). This world is interdicted. A naval task force
(perhaps a Kinunir class battlecruiser and several Gazelle class close escorts) will not
allow landing on Algine and are uncommunicative as to the reason for the interdiction.
They will allow refuelling by skimming the local gas giant.
(perhaps a Kinunir class battlecruiser and several Gazelle class close escorts) will not
allow landing on Algine and are uncommunicative as to the reason for the interdiction.
They will allow refuelling by skimming the local gas giant.
B5 51
Battle Cruiser Kinunir: The Imperial battlecruiser Kinunir, subject of Traveller
Adventure 1, has been constructed according to the starship design system, and is
presented below.
The battlecruiser Kinunir is the first of 24 authorized units in i t s class (20
actually built). Governing tech level is 15. Its 1250-ton hull is of the cone configuration
(actually slightly flattened, with a central fin mounted dorsally); it is streamlined
and capable of atmospheric work (hull cost, including 10% surcharge for
cone configuration: MCr137.5).
The ship is jump4 (62.5 tons; MCr250), maneuver-4 (137.5 tons; MCr68.75).
and power plant-7 (87.5 tons; MCr262.5;. The power plant provides 87.5 energy
points.
Fuel tankage requires 500 tons for jump fuel and 87.5 tons for power plant
fuel; a total of 587.5 tons. There are fuel scoops (MCr1.25) and a fuel purification
plant (8.8 tons; MCr.08125).
A bridge (25 tons; MCr6.25) and a computer Modelfirfib are installed (18 tons;
MCr100; 7 energy points).
The ship carries no armor, no spinal mount, and no bay weaponry.
Eight dual beam laser turrets (8 tons; MCrl6; 16 energy points) are installed
and grouped into two batteries of factor 4 each, which tech level bumps to factor
5. Two particle accelerator turrets (6 tons; MCr6; '10 energy points) are installed
as two batteries at factor-2. Finally, two triple missile turrets are installed (2 tons;
MCr4.5; no energy points) as two batteries of factor-3.
The ship carries a factor-5 nuclear damper (8 tons; MCr30; 40 energy points)
and a factor-I black globe generator (10 tons; MCr400; no energy points).
Ship's vehicles include three airlrafts (12 tons; MCrl.8) and a grav APC (10 tons;
MCr9.3). A pinnace (35 tons; MCr21.7) is carried for troop landings.
The crew numbers 45, plus 35 marines, and requires 4 single occupancy staterooms
and 38 double occupancy staterooms (168 tons; MCr21).
A cargo hold of 63 tons is provided.
The ship has an agility of 1 ;it has an emergency agility of 4.
Adventure 1, has been constructed according to the starship design system, and is
presented below.
The battlecruiser Kinunir is the first of 24 authorized units in i t s class (20
actually built). Governing tech level is 15. Its 1250-ton hull is of the cone configuration
(actually slightly flattened, with a central fin mounted dorsally); it is streamlined
and capable of atmospheric work (hull cost, including 10% surcharge for
cone configuration: MCr137.5).
The ship is jump4 (62.5 tons; MCr250), maneuver-4 (137.5 tons; MCr68.75).
and power plant-7 (87.5 tons; MCr262.5;. The power plant provides 87.5 energy
points.
Fuel tankage requires 500 tons for jump fuel and 87.5 tons for power plant
fuel; a total of 587.5 tons. There are fuel scoops (MCr1.25) and a fuel purification
plant (8.8 tons; MCr.08125).
A bridge (25 tons; MCr6.25) and a computer Modelfirfib are installed (18 tons;
MCr100; 7 energy points).
The ship carries no armor, no spinal mount, and no bay weaponry.
Eight dual beam laser turrets (8 tons; MCrl6; 16 energy points) are installed
and grouped into two batteries of factor 4 each, which tech level bumps to factor
5. Two particle accelerator turrets (6 tons; MCr6; '10 energy points) are installed
as two batteries at factor-2. Finally, two triple missile turrets are installed (2 tons;
MCr4.5; no energy points) as two batteries of factor-3.
The ship carries a factor-5 nuclear damper (8 tons; MCr30; 40 energy points)
and a factor-I black globe generator (10 tons; MCr400; no energy points).
Ship's vehicles include three airlrafts (12 tons; MCrl.8) and a grav APC (10 tons;
MCr9.3). A pinnace (35 tons; MCr21.7) is carried for troop landings.
The crew numbers 45, plus 35 marines, and requires 4 single occupancy staterooms
and 38 double occupancy staterooms (168 tons; MCr21).
A cargo hold of 63 tons is provided.
The ship has an agility of 1 ;it has an emergency agility of 4.
I have not included references to A1; many products do so in the other products list.
No MT references in PM, IE, RM, COACC, RC, RbSB
minipainter
SOC-5
not sure if you would consider it cannonical but the Forgotton War adventure by QLI, puts the Luuru in district 268 during the 5th frontier war
* this is the PC's Ship in the adventure
quoted from page 11 of the Forgotton War by QLI
* this is the PC's Ship in the adventure
Minipainter,
Sixteen ships and the largest being a Kinunir-class "battlecrusier" and the next a pair of 1000dTon Fer de Lance DEs? Huh?
That's just... well... wrong is the kindest word I can use.
Granted, the 214th in Glisten doesn't start to move coreward against the Sacnoth Fleet until mid-1108, but it and the 208th should be able to detach more assets than that to operate in what has been an Imperial protectorate since 610.
On the other side of the hill, the Narsil Fleet may have been oriented towards the Darrians and the Sacnoth Fleet tasked with patrolling the Confederation's rimward boarder, but boht should have been able to detach assets into the District to raid and scout.
The force levels in Forgotten War don't even make sense in a LBB:2 setting. There should be larger ships and more of them involved.
Regards,
Bill
minipainter
SOC-5
I agree totaly, I was just quoting a source for Aramis.
I recently started looking at the ecconomics of the spinward Marches to see if I could work out an aproximate budget for the Navy and gave up when I realised that any reasonably large sized world (pop 8 or 9) could afford to run more than a dozen tigress dreadnaughts. but that is a whole other thread.
I would have if they'd chosen another ship, because when it comes to usable canon, I'm of the opinion that every little bit added to what you've already got makes just as bit more, and a universe (or even just a small slice of one galaxy) is big enough that it can use all the description it can get.
However, the Luuru is explicitly assigned to Regina subsector [TK:5], and I want to explain its non-battledress trained marines by having it be part of the Duchy of Regina Navy (and its marines hence part of the Duchy of Regina Marine Corps), so I'd like to keep it in the Duchy of Regina.
Incidentally, thanks very much to you and the others (especially Wil) for your help.
Hans
Welcome to CotI, my new friend.
(You'll find that this is indeed another discussion -- a lot of other discussions, actually -- and that Bill, Wil (Aramis), and I are among the people who've contributed to it).
Hans
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E.D.Quibell
SOC-13
If you take that the black globes are at the cutting edge of Imperial Technology at TL15, and the Kinunirs have cutting edge AI at TL15 on board, why would the Imperial Navy let a ship with such advanced tech pass into the resurves/subsector Navy?
(On the Subsector Navy vs Naval resurve cannon debate I disagree with Hans' "Dutchy Navy" answer YMMV)
We have cannon that assignes the Luuru to District 268 during the FFW (1100), five years after the cannon that assigns it to Regina (1105), which is entierly plausable.
Hans I suggest you pick another class of ship for the subsector navy.
Regards,
Ewan
E.D.Quibell
SOC-13
This is the "Subsector Fleet" not the Imperial Navy. In MT this would be the Naval Resurve Fleet. My question is; Why would district 268 have a Naval Resurve?
The Imperium would show the flag using element of the Glisten and Five Sisters Imperial Navy Fleet.
There is a Naval Base at Mille Falcs, which would have a Naval Resurve Squadron. Another question might be would 16 ships with a Kinunir as lead work as an Imperial Naval Resurve Squadron? If so it would fit with what we know of cannon.
Thoughts?
Ewan,
Would District 268 have a reserve/subsector fleet? IMHO, no. It's not an Imperial subsector nor is it part of any duchy.
Instead, the District is explicitly described as a protectorate. The worlds in the subsector may not be members of the Imperium, but they receive Imperial protection...
... whether they want said protection or not!
Agreed. Both the 214th and 208th fleets (using 5th Frontier War era deployments) would provide assets to patrol the District. Control of the District is vital in the event of any war with the Sword Worlds as the Confederation sit astride the peacetime x-boat links between the Five Sisters and the rest of the Imperium.
Not so fast. Reserve fleets are twinned with regular fleets and there is no regular Imperial fleet assigned to the District. IMO, Mille Falcs is Diego Garcia, a staging point for naval assets dispatched from other regions to patrol the District.
Most definitely not.
The only actual warships listed in Forgotten War as part of this alleged "fleet" are the two 1,000dTon Fer de Lance escorts. The sole Kinunir-class vessel shouldn't be anywhere need a battle as it's a very poor warship design(1). The Broadsword-class mercenary cruiser is more of a battle taxi(2) than a warship while the patrol cruisers and Gazelles can help a little, but the remaining vessels can't even stand up to a single Vargr corsair.
There's another reason why the motley assemblage presented in Forgotten War can't be a reserve fleet and you yourself brought it up in an earlier post. Why would the Imperial Navy let a Kinunir-class vessel with it's TL15 AI and black globe pass into the reserves?
There's canon and there's canon. Among many other things, we already ignore A:4's jump torpedoes and the early Library Data entry which states that Capital controls the "only crossing in the Rift for hundreds of parsecs". Ignoring the laughable "fleet" presented in Forgotten War is just as easy and doesn't effect the Forgotten War campaign one whit.
Regards,
Bill
1 - The Kinunirs are poor warships because they're LBB:2 designs and don't fit into the post-HG2 setting.
2 - The role of "battle taxi" is one of a few that the [Kinunir's can fill in a post-HG2 setting.
I have an explanation for that.
I, on the other hand, agree with me.
I wouldn't exactly call it grade A canon, though. But I agree that if the Luuru belongs to the Imperial Navy, it's perfectly possible for it to be transferred from the 193rd Fleet to the 214th or the 208th between 1105 and 1107. But then the Luuru's marines would have been Imperial Marine Corps marines. And according to another bit of canon, they're evidently not.
Note that I'm trying to come up with a retcon that explains some of the weirdness that arose once the Kinunirs were no longer one quarter the size of the biggest ship possible but only one eighth of one percent. Obviously I can't do that without invalidating some existing canon.
Hans
AFAIK the number of the fleet stationed in Five Sisters before the war has never been established. But I know what you mean.
All the Kinunirs have fittings for Black Globe generators. I don't think it's stated anywhere that they all were fitted with them. The computer... well, that is another story.There's another reason why the motley assemblage presented in Forgotten War can't be a reserve fleet and you yourself brought it up in an earlier post. Why would the Imperial Navy let a Kinunir-class vessel with it's TL15 AI and black globe pass into the reserves?
Hans
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"I would like to thank Her Imperial Highness for her munificent gift."
On a related note, can anyone suggest any way that donating a small, inefficient ship like a Kinunir to an ally who can afford to build dozens and scores of battlerships can possibly be construed as a compliment?
Alternatively, why Iolanthe would feel the need to subtly insult the Vegans? Having the ventral turrets reduced from missile racks to dual lasers is a nicely bizarre touch, as is ordering a ship from clean across the Imperium to give to the Vegans.
Hans
On a related note, can anyone suggest any way that donating a small, inefficient ship like a Kinunir to an ally who can afford to build dozens and scores of battlerships can possibly be construed as a compliment?
Alternatively, why Iolanthe would feel the need to subtly insult the Vegans? Having the ventral turrets reduced from missile racks to dual lasers is a nicely bizarre touch, as is ordering a ship from clean across the Imperium to give to the Vegans.
Hans
Hans,
I've never even tried to explain any of that. As far as I'm concerned it is entirely unexplainable from an in-game standpoint anyway.
We all know the real reasons for the oddities you listed; A:1 was written very early in the setting's development so the ships and their stories got lost in the shuffle.
By the way, did we learn Iolanthe's name before we learned Strephon's?
Regards,
Bill
I've never even tried to explain any of that. As far as I'm concerned it is entirely unexplainable from an in-game standpoint anyway.
We all know the real reasons for the oddities you listed; A:1 was written very early in the setting's development so the ships and their stories got lost in the shuffle.
By the way, did we learn Iolanthe's name before we learned Strephon's?
Regards,
Bill
We don't know that until we've tried
.I do know that, and I'm quite willing to dump those stories if they can't be explained. But I think it's more fun if we can come up with something.
I think so. She's mentioned on p. 11 and a quick browse failed to turn up Strephon's name on the earliers pages, though I could have missed it. They're both mentioned in the library data on p. 41 though. Including UWPs showing their exalted social status of 15....
o:Hans
On why such a (relatively) New Class of ship would be rotated out of fount line service, well it was constructed at Early TL-15, when they didn't know what they where doing, the ship suffered from "New Toy Syndrome" as they tried to do to much with what they where just starting to understand, so they striped it of the Tech that was just not working or to valuable to leave on what was becoming a 2nd line ship.
and why give some to the Vegans that are at the far end of the Imperium? well their one of the few Client States/Autonomous Regions not to have heard of the problems, and if they have it's likely not to have bean the whole story, a quick bit of marketing and the Vegans can be coned in to thinking the problems have bean fixed.
and why give some to the Vegans that are at the far end of the Imperium? well their one of the few Client States/Autonomous Regions not to have heard of the problems, and if they have it's likely not to have bean the whole story, a quick bit of marketing and the Vegans can be coned in to thinking the problems have bean fixed.
We don't know that until we've tried
Hans,
I've been trying and failing for thirty years.
First, I think we need to bow to the "necessity" of having Shuruppak and at least a few of the other Yard 17 hulls built at a "Yard 17" in the Solomani Rim. Believing that the Empress would give the Imperium's stalwart Vegan allies an essentially worthless "warship" is bad enough without also believing that said "warship" must also travel the length of the Imperium to reach it's new owners.
I know, I know. There is very good internal evidence for all the Kinunirs being built in the Marches and for the single Yard 17 to be located there too but, if we want to salvage one part of the story, we need to seriously bend something else.
I'm hesitant to bring them up because I truly loathe them, but one of the excreable TNE novels feature a relic Kinunir in what was once the Old Expanses. If we want to treat those novels as canon - and I shudder at the prospect - it appears that Kinunir-class vessels complete with black globes were built beyond the Marches.
Once there's a Kinunir available on the Rim, Iolanthe giving Vegans a single "battle taxi" capable of delivering three squads of marines under cloak of a black globe for a special ops beat-down of Solomani separatists, terrorists, and other-ists doesn't seem too odd. Especially when we remember that A:1 explicitly states that the vessel has "served primarily in the insurrection suppression role since."
I know "the Emperor" is mentioned with regards to anagathics in one of the rumors, but Iolanthe gets her name in first. Excellent!
Bet that led to memorable breakfast conversations around the Imperial table.
Regards,
Bill
