Looks like Cutlass is back on the menu boys

[Enoki]

I was under the impression all ships had at least a range of positive/negative 3G control, with selectable areas particularly staterooms.

Both the morale/gut it out CQB problems and the rarity of proper counter equipment like the BD or GB makes the grav control play a go to.

Whereas, with merchant ships, such fine control costs more credits for no ROI. For military ships, fine control isn't necessary. I'd say that boardings only occur once the attacking ship has pretty much disabled most of the machinery on the ship to be boarded so you wouldn't have the ability to do much of anything with the ship's systems because they're shot to pieces.

 

[Enoki]

For reference, 18 feet is 5.5 meters ... and 6 meters (4 deck squares @ 1.5m per square) is 19ft 8 inches (so call it 20 feet for convenience).

Now look at a lot of the deck plans for Traveller.
Something you're going to notice pretty quickly is that there are going to be long straight corridors of 4+ deck squares that make for excellent gunplay choke points ... but then there are going to be other locations (such as staterooms and at corners) where the distance is going to be shorter than 4 deck squares where ambush by melee weapon makes a lot of sense.

---

That's where your 4cm grenade launcher or a low velocity rifle grenade come in handy...

 

[kilemall]

For reference, 18 feet is 5.5 meters ... and 6 meters (4 deck squares @ 1.5m per square) is 19ft 8 inches (so call it 20 feet for convenience).

Now look at a lot of the deck plans for Traveller.
Something you're going to notice pretty quickly is that there are going to be long straight corridors of 4+ deck squares that make for excellent gunplay choke points ... but then there are going to be other locations (such as staterooms and at corners) where the distance is going to be shorter than 4 deck squares where ambush by melee weapon makes a lot of sense.

---

Citation please!
That doesn't feel right to me.

LBB S7, p24 has the following:


LBB S7, p33 has the following:


LBB A1, p10 has the following:


LBB A4, p22 has the following:


LBB A10, p22 has the following:


Note that not a single citation across 4 LBB sources has said +/- 3G as you assert.

My assumption has always been that the internal gravity can be set to between 0G and 1G, with the intertial compensators taking care of the rest of the acceleration forces produced by the drives.

Now, an argument can be made that if you "pile in" the inertial compensators into the mix (as "extra G force" that can be applied. you're looking at a "usable range" of internal gravity fields ranging from 0G to Maneuver+1G in total. So a 2G drive craft can apply a maximum 3G force if you blend the inertial compensators into the mix. A 6G maneuver drive would require up to 7G of countering force to maintain a constant 1G interior field for crew and passengers (and cargo).

It’s there, just not something I have the location memorized in.

 

[kilemall]

Whereas, with merchant ships, such fine control costs more credits for no ROI. For military ships, fine control isn't necessary. I'd say that boardings only occur once the attacking ship has pretty much disabled most of the machinery on the ship to be boarded so you wouldn't have the ability to do much of anything with the ship's systems because they're shot to pieces.

That’s an assumption. I am assuming they are section by section. One of those preferences things.

As a pirate I would prefer maxing my profit by not shooting the target ship to junk. IMO pirates are likely to reward easy surrender crews with treatment and safety, and punish fighting crews with various nasty.

My supposition is the target ship didn’t fight a starship fight but plans on fighting the boarding action. Desperate but maybe the only way they can fight back.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Spinward Flow]

Citation please!

It’s there, just not something I have the location memorized in.

If we're keeping score on the citations from official sources, I've got five and you've got zero.
Some people might consider that definitive.

Until you can cite a point of reference, consider your assertion that +/- 3G internal fields can be presumed to be definitively disproven.
The onus is now on you to prove your point with evidence.
I've shown you mine ... now show me yours.

 

[casquilho]

Extremely valid point. Thank you for correcting me.
I've just been in situations where the strategic stated guns would be useless, so I advanced tactical solutions which allowed me to say:
"No officer. I was afraid for my life and I didn't have time to think it through. I just acted on the best odds of success"

I agree 100%. Be prepared and train so if you find yourself in a bad situation you can act in a way that has the "best odds of success."

 

[casquilho]

25 feet is the typical distance.

Not a real fan of the myth buster idea for the boarding situation. I imagine if the crew knows the pirates are boarding they have guns out and cocked not holstered and chamber empty.

Regardless, I am a firm believer that those who were assigned to repel boarders would be armed with all the tools needed. Melee hand weapon and firearm and traps and anything else they could use.

 

[Enoki]

That’s an assumption. I am assuming they are section by section. One of those preferences things.

As a pirate I would prefer maxing my profit by not shooting the target ship to junk. IMO pirates are likely to reward easy surrender crews with treatment and safety, and punish fighting crews with various nasty.

My supposition is the target ship didn’t fight a starship fight but plans on fighting the boarding action. Desperate but maybe the only way they can fight back.

Boarding a ship means you have to be able to get very close and either EVA over in a vac suit or dock to it. That means it pretty much HAS to have its ability to maneuver ended. That in turn means shooting up the engines at a minimum or wiping out the bridge or control room(s) so you can. That means if you can be boarded, the ability or inability of you being able to control onboard gravity is the least of your problems.

 

[Enoki]

Not a real fan of the myth buster idea for the boarding situation. I imagine if the crew knows the pirates are boarding they have guns out and cocked not holstered and chamber empty.

Regardless, I am a firm believer that those who were assigned to repel boarders would be armed with all the tools needed. Melee hand weapon and firearm and traps and anything else they could use.

I've watched videos done where you had professional law enforcement and security guards faced off against skilled knife / blade fighters like in that Mythbusters video, and at under 25 feet, the gun loses virtually every time. Short of having your firearm out and pointed (aimed) at the oncoming knife fighter you're pretty much finished if the guy with the knife / blade knows what he's doing. A shotgun is your best option in that situation.

Again, I'd think that boarding is rare against a prepared and fully operational ship. The norm for that is the ship is damaged sufficiently to be unable to escape or maneuver. As such, other than military ships that have sufficient crew to include a party of marines or trained navy crewmen, they aren't going to have a trained, drilled, response team to use for a boarding. Why would some smaller military ship have that?

If the ship were dealing with customs or the like, it would include a boarding party for those purposes. But there, the boarders have announced they're coming aboard and normally the boarded ship's crew is cooperative.

Merchant ships? They're highly unlikely to have anything beyond possibly some security guards to protect the ship when it's on the ground or in port and deal with idiot passengers who get out-of-line. If you are flying in less secure systems where piracy is really possible, I'd think the norm would be convoys made up of several merchants--all heavily armed for a ship-to-ship fight--and possibly escorted by one or more small naval vessels. Their numbers alone would make piracy by one or two ships very risky.

 

[whartung]

I have this vision of a guy on the bridge looking at a screen, grabbing a knob that says "Gravity" and cranking it up until the intruders flatten like a pancake on the deck. Then he calls out on the loudspeaker that if they don't stay down until security arrives, he's just going to turn the knob more until it crushes the life out of them.

Or, worse, its a knob that goes from -6 to +6, and he just starts spinning if back and forth, slamming the intruders into the roof and floor until they're knocked senseless.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I have this vision of a guy on the bridge looking at a screen, grabbing a knob that says "Gravity" and cranking it up until the intruders flatten like a pancake on the deck. Then he calls out on the loudspeaker that if they don't stay down until security arrives, he's just going to turn the knob more until it crushes the life out of them.

Or, worse, its a knob that goes from -6 to +6, and he just starts spinning if back and forth, slamming the intruders into the roof and floor until they're knocked senseless.

Sounds like a good reason to make all of the interior walls bulkheads instead of partitions ...

 

[Enoki]

I have this vision of a guy on the bridge looking at a screen, grabbing a knob that says "Gravity" and cranking it up until the intruders flatten like a pancake on the deck. Then he calls out on the loudspeaker that if they don't stay down until security arrives, he's just going to turn the knob more until it crushes the life out of them.

Or, worse, its a knob that goes from -6 to +6, and he just starts spinning if back and forth, slamming the intruders into the roof and floor until they're knocked senseless.

And, if they are in say your cargo bay, and you just crushed most of your cargo into valueless scrap...

But my question would be, what possible reason a ship would need a highly variable grav system considering that it would almost certainly cost considerably more as would building the interior of the ship to withstand it at maximum?

As Whartung points out, you crank the gravity to 6G and the partitions, non-airtight doors, furnishings, stuff in the compartment, all get turned into instant junk under the greater force of gravity they weren't designed to withstand. Even if the partitions and such just deform a bit, you've now got massive repair problems. Doors won't open or close properly. The partition walls now rattle because they came loose somewhere. The ventilation system is all messed up because the thin material of the ducts buckled.

Or even worse. You have a criminal minded crew member who turns that little wheel into a way to kill the rest of the crew and take the ship handing it over to his pirate buddies for a big cut of the prize money...

 

[Spinward Flow]

But my question would be, what possible reason a ship would need a highly variable grav system considering that it would almost certainly cost considerably more as would building the interior of the ship to withstand it at maximum?

That's why more powerful maneuver drives are more expensive to buy and install.

As Whartung points out, you crank the gravity to 6G and the partitions, non-airtight doors, furnishings, stuff in the compartment, all get turned into instant junk under the greater force of gravity they weren't designed to withstand.

Want examples?
Someone had fun with a physics engine.
Turn on the sound for maximum enjoyment.

https://imgur.com/9ZqAQFJ

 

[kilemall]

Boarding a ship means you have to be able to get very close and either EVA over in a vac suit or dock to it. That means it pretty much HAS to have its ability to maneuver ended. That in turn means shooting up the engines at a minimum or wiping out the bridge or control room(s) so you can. That means if you can be boarded, the ability or inability of you being able to control onboard gravity is the least of your problems.

No it is not. If the crew wants to try surviving this, they can power down while waiting to ambush the pirate crew.

Doubling the payoff with ship money (even just parting out the engineering and computers) makes it worth encouraging targets to surrender intact ships, and cargo and ship owners want to limit losses. There is also giving a college try to defend the ship and cargo, with a risk of complicity or a reputation of being an easy target if there is always surrender.

Then there is the time risk of matching course, boarding, loot and getting away when an LE/naval or even predatory pirates may be closing on a fixed course/vee.

My thought is that most of the time pirates take a shot across the bow, target ships shoot back but miss intentionally to preserve honor, then drop a portion of the cargo and move on. The pirates have their base ship that has superior firepower to most cargo ships, but scoop up the proffered/demanded cargo using small craft with high G.

To take it further, the only reason to board is take the ship and take passengers/crew for nefarious purposes. Under those conditions, idling the ship and taking a boarding action may be preferable to either run and be certain to be disabled, or unilaterally surrendering and be taken to an unknown and unpleasant fate.

That’s a cultural thing refs have to decide as to what adventure content they want.

 

[kilemall]

And, if they are in say your cargo bay, and you just crushed most of your cargo into valueless scrap...

But my question would be, what possible reason a ship would need a highly variable grav system considering that it would almost certainly cost considerably more as would building the interior of the ship to withstand it at maximum?

As Whartung points out, you crank the gravity to 6G and the partitions, non-airtight doors, furnishings, stuff in the compartment, all get turned into instant junk under the greater force of gravity they weren't designed to withstand. Even if the partitions and such just deform a bit, you've now got massive repair problems. Doors won't open or close properly. The partition walls now rattle because they came loose somewhere. The ventilation system is all messed up because the thin material of the ducts buckled.

Or even worse. You have a criminal minded crew member who turns that little wheel into a way to kill the rest of the crew and take the ship handing it over to his pirate buddies for a big cut of the prize money...

Presumably the ship itself will be built to handle the G its maneuver drive dishes out without compensators, and safety standards so furniture and such aren’t turned into missiles.

So the only danger would be exceeding the design limits. To avoid slavery or worse, furniture is probably expendable.

 

[Enoki]

No it is not. If the crew wants to try surviving this, they can power down while waiting to ambush the pirate crew.

Doubling the payoff with ship money (even just parting out the engineering and computers) makes it worth encouraging targets to surrender intact ships, and cargo and ship owners want to limit losses. There is also giving a college try to defend the ship and cargo, with a risk of complicity or a reputation of being an easy target if there is always surrender.

Then there is the time risk of matching course, boarding, loot and getting away when an LE/naval or even predatory pirates may be closing on a fixed course/vee.

My thought is that most of the time pirates take a shot across the bow, target ships shoot back but miss intentionally to preserve honor, then drop a portion of the cargo and move on. The pirates have their base ship that has superior firepower to most cargo ships, but scoop up the proffered/demanded cargo using small craft with high G.

To take it further, the only reason to board is take the ship and take passengers/crew for nefarious purposes. Under those conditions, idling the ship and taking a boarding action may be preferable to either run and be certain to be disabled, or unilaterally surrendering and be taken to an unknown and unpleasant fate.

That’s a cultural thing refs have to decide as to what adventure content they want.

Why would you bother to give an inch if you knew the pirates weren't willing to shoot your ship to little, tiny pieces? If the choice is they want it intact and only boarding and a crew fight versus they threaten you endlessly, I'd choose you can threaten me endlessly. No, I'm not dropping cargo or anything else. If you won't actually get serious and shoot the ship up, the target ship has no real reason to fear you.

As pirates, you have to be willing to get vicious, for real, with your prey.

I'd see piracy against merchant ships in space as more of:

1. The pirates put passenger or crew aboard the target. This is backed by a ship capable of taking the target in a system. The pirates know when the ship will be in-system. The passengers / crew disable the target, and the pirate ship swoops in and takes a disabled vessel.

2. The pirates don't hit your ship in space. They wait until you land on some class C, D, E, "starport" on some low-tech world hit you while you're on the ground and can't run away.

3. A variant of 1. is the passengers / crew that are ringers for the pirates stage a "train robbery." That is, they have by some means smuggled weapons aboard and they try to take the ship from inside. With some planning, they launch a surprise attack on the ship taking the critical systems and compartments over before the legitimate crew can respond.

Trading energy weapon fire or whatever where both parties know the other won't do serious damage, only means that the fight becomes a joke of a parody of jousting or something.

 

[Enoki]

Presumably the ship itself will be built to handle the G its maneuver drive dishes out without compensators, and safety standards so furniture and such aren’t turned into missiles.

So the only danger would be exceeding the design limits. To avoid slavery or worse, furniture is probably expendable.

For your average non-military ship that's 1 or 2 G. Why would you need more?

Heavy weather... Cruise ship...

 

[kilemall]

Why would you bother to give an inch if you knew the pirates weren't willing to shoot your ship to little, tiny pieces? If the choice is they want it intact and only boarding and a crew fight versus they threaten you endlessly, I'd choose you can threaten me endlessly. No, I'm not dropping cargo or anything else. If you won't actually get serious and shoot the ship up, the target ship has no real reason to fear you.

As pirates, you have to be willing to get vicious, for real, with your prey.

I'd see piracy against merchant ships in space as more of:

1. The pirates put passenger or crew aboard the target. This is backed by a ship capable of taking the target in a system. The pirates know when the ship will be in-system. The passengers / crew disable the target, and the pirate ship swoops in and takes a disabled vessel.

2. The pirates don't hit your ship in space. They wait until you land on some class C, D, E, "starport" on some low-tech world hit you while you're on the ground and can't run away.

3. A variant of 1. is the passengers / crew that are ringers for the pirates stage a "train robbery." That is, they have by some means smuggled weapons aboard and they try to take the ship from inside. With some planning, they launch a surprise attack on the ship taking the critical systems and compartments over before the legitimate crew can respond.

Trading energy weapon fire or whatever where both parties know the other won't do serious damage, only means that the fight becomes a joke of a parody of jousting or something.

I lifted most of that from what actually happened in Caribbean piracy, where the pirates wanted to engender surrender. Part of that is threatening death if resistance, so certainly that is a thing. But tearing into the target first thing wasn’t any kind of norm.

The shooting missing is a flourish for resolving the fighting back, but even a single turret taking shots can dish out grievous damage. And pirates usually have no access to starport maintenance, so one lucky shot can end their run, possibly a target themselves for the authority or opposing pirates.

As to cargo dumping, that’s specific to my perception of the environment with problems of vee vs reaction. Cost of doing business by dumping is a logical course of action, much like the European non action against Barbary Pirates or paying tribute, until the US had enough.

Finally, because of that maintenance thing, replacement parts and ships are at a premium. This happened in Caribbean piracy where beachside hull scraping had limits. Main spars, sails themselves, ropes and other industrial accoutrements required replacements, not to mention the whole ship would eventually break down. Guaranteeing lives on surrender was key to maintaining ships in being.

 

[kilemall]

For your average non-military ship that's 1 or 2 G. Why would you need more?

Heavy weather... Cruise ship...

Big difference in kinetic energy between x knots and ocean waves vs even 1-2 G. That stuff is bolted and secured.